4x5 folding camera for architecture?

[Mark_Se]

I`m looking for a lightweight and small folding 4x5 camera. I normaly use a sinar f2 but I need something more compact for traveling. What do you think is the best folding camera for architecture (small, lightweight, "good" movements, works with wide angle lenses) What do you think about a toyo 45 cf or horseman 45fa ?

[Dave Jeffery]

Or a non-folder?

http://www.ebonycamera.com/cam/main.45SU.html

[engl]

Neither of those two cameras take bag bellows AFAIK, and for architecture you might want that. The Wista 45VX does take bag bellows, and has generous front rise as well as geared front tilt and rise.

You could also look at something like the Shen Hao HZX or TZ45. Both take bag bellows (or Chamonix universal bellows), have quite extensive movements, and can have the back standard moved forward to keep the front bed out of the photo with wide lenses. You will need indirect rise to get to the edge of the image circle with something like a 72XL or Nikon 90/8 though.

Edit: There are also non-folders like the 4500$ Ebony mentioned above, or on a more modest budget, the Shen Hao XPO and Walker Titan XL 4x5. I wish the Titan XL would have had rear rise or tilt, since I sometimes need more front fall than it provides. I use a Chamonix 4x5 for urban shooting, pretty similar to architecture in camera needs. Extremely capable, but I wish it had swing zero detents.

[Noah A]

I've thought about this quite a bit myself. It depends a little on if you're doing seriously demanding commercial architectural work or more fine/art urban landscape shooting. I assume you'll keep your f2 so you can use it for very demanding shoots and for working close to home.

The Wista VX/SP, which is the camera I started with, can use a bag bellows. The problem is that the body casing is fairly deep and it tends to get in the way of the bellows when you try to use significant front rise.

The Linhof Technikas, starting with the Master Technika and including the MT2000 and MT3000, have a little flap on the top of the body that does improve the situation.

I didn't look at the Toyo CF, but the TOYO AII has much less front rise than the Wista or Linhof. You can add additional indirect rise, but that can be annoying since it will involve re-leveling the back, etc. The Horseman is tiny but I never tried one. I wonder how flexible the camera would be for movements since it's so small. Some lenses with big rear elements won't fit through the front standard opening.

I've been using a Technikardan 45S, which is an incredible camera for architecture and urban landscape when you need full movements with a range of lenses. It's not tiny, but it can do anything I need it to do. It's a pleasure to work with and I wish I had discovered it sooner. It folds up small and is self-contained, but it may not be that much smaller than your f2.

I just added a Master Technika 2000 to my kit for when I need to travel light and when I won't need as much range of movement. The Master Technikas have the most usable front rise of any of the metal field cameras I've tried. The MT is built like a tank and is very intuitive to work with. The only downside is that it has no front fall, so you need to either drop the bed or mount the camera upside-down (it has a tripod socket on the top for this purpose). It's kind of annoying, but I use front rise much more than front fall, so I can live with it.

[Richard Wasserman]

I use a Horseman 45FA and would not recommend it for serious architectural photography as its movements are fairly limited—no fall, only front rise. Also the range of lenses that can be used is somewhat restricted by the small front opening. It is very compact and weighs about 4 pounds which for me makes it ideal as a travel camera, and also for less demanding work than architecture. I really like it very much for what it is. That said I am looking at a Technikardan as a more versatile and still portable camera.

[Jim Noel]

I`m looking for a lightweight and small folding 4x5 camera. I normaly use a sinar f2 but I need something more compact for traveling. What do you think is the best folding camera for architecture (small, lightweight, "good" movements, works with wide angle lenses) What do you think about a toyo 45 cf or horseman 45fa ?

These would be among my last choices for the purpose. They are too limited in movements and use of WA lenses.

[Peter York]

Look at the Toho. Its a lightweight monorail that may fit your needs.

[redu]

I think the best portable 4x5 is Peter Gowland's (RIP) 4x5 All Moves Pocket View (http://www.petergowland.com/camera/). I have the one on the left (scroll down the page just a little bit). It's not as flimsy as it seems. A very good camera actually. I would always prefer Gowlands to a Toho (also out of business company AFAIK).

[Kirk Gittings]

I used a Tachihara for years. Once the below is broken in it is very flexible-though only good up to a 90MM wide angle IME.

[Ed Richards]

The Ebony 45SU takes a bag bellows - I use it all the time. It makes a great normal bellows for lenses up to 180mm. I use a 47XL, 72XL, 80SS, 90mm Nikon f4.5 and 110SS and have no problems with any of them. I picked it for wide angle use and looked at a lot of cameras before I bought it. Nothing comes close, and you can still focus a 300 at 10 feet with the universal bellows it comes with. The universal bellows will work with wide lenses but does not allow much movement.

[bgh]

Neither of those two cameras take bag bellows AFAIK, and for architecture you might want that. The Wista 45VX does take bag bellows, and has generous front rise as well as geared front tilt and rise.

You could also look at something like the Shen Hao HZX or TZ45. Both take bag bellows (or Chamonix universal bellows), have quite extensive movements, and can have the back standard moved forward to keep the front bed out of the photo with wide lenses. You will need indirect rise to get to the edge of the image circle with something like a 72XL or Nikon 90/8 though.

Edit: There are also non-folders like the 4500$ Ebony mentioned above, or on a more modest budget, the Shen Hao XPO and Walker Titan XL 4x5. I wish the Titan XL would have had rear rise or tilt, since I sometimes need more front fall than it provides. I use a Chamonix 4x5 for urban shooting, pretty similar to architecture in camera needs. Extremely capable, but I wish it had swing zero detents.

I was concerned that the Shen Hao HZX 4x5 wouldn't have the movements that I wanted; I've been proved wrong. I have a Fujinon 90mm which I use with the bag bellows, and in the year that I've been using it with the Shen Hao, I haven't had a problem with vignetting, despite having to do a pretty severe rise last month for a fairly tall historic factory building on a narrow street. As you mentioned, the ability to push the rear standard forward to the lens eliminates the concern that the front bed will be in the image.

For the kind of documentation work that I do, I might not test a camera's movements in the way that a more formal architectural photographer will, but I haven't been disappointed yet (especially given the price of the camera!).

Bruce

[lenser]

Mark, If you are staying with exteriors only, you can probably get by with a 90mm as your wide angle which will work somewhat well with a standard bellows as long as the building isn't too tall. For interiors, a 65mm or 58mm or in extreme cases a 47mm will be needed and for any of those, a bag bellows is a must for any kind of camera movements as well as compression to get focus properly for the shortest lenses. So, I would suggest you don't even look at a camera that doesn't allow for a bag bellows.

I use my old Zone VI almost daily for architecture and it does a wonderful job with lenses ranging from 47mm to over 300mm. It does have interchangeable bellows and a very full range of movements. They are relatively inexpensive and very easy to work with even though they may not have quite all the bells and whistles of a new Shen Hao or Ebony.

Even though they have been out of production for some time, it is quite easy to find lens boards and bag bellows on this site, at KEH, and of course on the the auction site.

I've been using mine for nearly twenty years without any sign of a problem, so I will vouch for it.

[David Karp]

My Walker Titan SF has lots of movements, and can take a bag bellows. It works fine with a 90mm. I will have to slap my 75 on it and see how it works. I am sure that with the bag bellows you can use a 75 or 65 on flat boards with it. The only issue to check with the 75 is whether you can use all of its movements without impairment by the "box." I think it will be all right. Walker says you can use down to 47mm with a recessed board.

The camera has front base and axis tilts, front rise, and front swing, rear shift, rear base tilt, and rear swing.

[Frank Petronio]

If you can swing it, a Technikardan or Arca would be the ultimate, replacing your F2 as fine general purpose cameras.

But if you need to save some money, the Sinars are not that bad.... You can always make the Sinar F2 more compact by learning how to fold it for backpacking (search for a diagram, it is not intuitive but it works) and substituting a smaller (original, first version) F or Norma tripod mounting block. A folding focusing hood from a Crown Graphic can protect the ground glass and a Technika lensboard adaptor up front can make your lens collection more compact. And the Sinar Pan-Tilt head is a very nice tripod head that streamlines the camera as well. All of those parts added together are a fraction of the cost of all but the cheapest cameras mentioned above....

And it sets up in a flash, is infinitely expandable, has unlimited movements, handles any lens you could ever use, doesn't cost very much, and is a lot more robust than any wooden camera. (Just a few minor points!)

All the folding box cameras are going to compromise on something that will inhibit architectural photography, you have to decide if you can live with those restrictions.

If you want to get crazy, you could always do this: http://glennview.com/sinar.htm

Scroll down to: HALFBREED SINAR/GLENNVIEW CAMERA
The Sinar modular system is extensive, but some of us are never satisfied. I wanted a compact and lightweight yaw free camera with self-braking movements that accepted Sinar lensboards. The Sinar Alpina or A1 came close, but wasn't quite there, so I designed and built my own. It is offered w/o back, bellows or lensboard because likely you already have those items. The camera is less than 9.5" tall by 7.5" wide. The camera is 2.5# when mounted on the 6" rail. The camera is 3# when mounted on the 18" rail. A Sinar GG back and bellows will add 1.5#. Such a lightweight camera will allow you to use a lighter weight tripod. $500.

[matthew klos]

shenhao.

[David Karp]

Mark,

The Titan SF works fine with the 75mm. The box might restrict rise a tiny bit depending on where the lens is located, by eyeball very close to the limit of the image circle.

[Ari]

I have a Wista RF and highly recommend it.
It can take my 65mm with recessed board, however, as another poster mentioned, the bag bellows do get in the way when using too much front rise.
Like any camera mentioned here, it has one or two drawbacks, but it is a very solid and well-designed piece of kit, with many options for the architectural photographer.

[Robert Opheim]

I bought a Linhof Technikardan for architectural work. It is not light or small - but has a really good bag bellows and a lot of movement - especially front rise. The better lenses for architectural work - have a lot of coverage and are also not small or light. The folding of the Tecknikardan with the standard bellows seems to be one of the main complaints about the camera - I keep the bag bellow on the camera and put the standard bellows on it when I need it.

[Ole Tjugen]

If you can find one, there is a perfect one:

Carbon Infinity. (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=1026)

47mm lens is not a problem at all, with bag bellows. Nor is a 500mm lens, with the standard bellows. It isn't exactly small though, but it does fold up rather neatly in its clamshell.

If the movements you need with very short lenses is limited to rise/fall and front shift, then an old tailboard camera would actually be better and cheaper. My 24x30cm "Reisekamera", unknown maker about a century ago, can easily focus a 47mm lens at infinity with a full 15cm movement in either direction (8/7 up/down, 7.5 right or left). AND it can focus an 840mm lens at portrait distances...

[speedfreak]

Another vote for the Technikardan. Best camera I've used so far. I keep the bag bellows attached and it's pretty damned fast to setup and break down. I bought a BGN grade version of the non "s" for under $900 on KEH. About the same size and weight of my previous Zone VI 4x5.

[Joseph Dickerson]

Another vote for the Shen Hao.

I adapted a Chamonix universal bellows and found that it works with even my 65mm.

However, while the Shen Hao is much easier to pack than a Sinar, it's only a pound or so less in weight.

Most of the weight of your kit will be lenses, film, and other "necessities". So it comes down to which is the more important factor, weight or bulk.

I also agree that the Toyo CF would be a non-starter for your needs. It's just too limited. You might read my article comparing the CF and Shen Hao. It's on the Toyo (Mamiya America) web site or can be found on the Shutterbug web site.

JD

[rdenney]

Look at the Shen-Hao XPO. It is not a folder, but it takes no more space when packed because of the collapsing bed. But if you want a field camera and you normally work with a Sinar, the XPO is a no-brainer--it is compatible with Sinar bellows, lens boards, and other accessories.

Rick "whose F/F2 seems portable enough" Denney

[Matus Kalisky]

In the same line as the OP - what would be the shortest lens the Shen Hao XPO could handle with bag bellows on flat lens board? 75mm on recessed lens board on Tachi is always a fight ...

[Bill McMannis]

Another vote for the Technikardan. I have 45S that folded fits inside the large pocket of my photo vest or photo jacket. That along with a Grafmatic holder, my 90mm and 75mm, and tripod over my shoulder I go anywhere.

[rdenney]

In the same line as the OP - what would be the shortest lens the Shen Hao XPO could handle with bag bellows on flat lens board? 75mm on recessed lens board on Tachi is always a fight ...

It was specifically designed to accommodate a 72mm Super Angulon XL using a flat board and the provided bellows (which seem to be similar to a standard Sinar bellows). While I have not handled one in person, I suspect that with the right bellows it will allow a much shorter lens, but perhaps not a 47. It will certainly support short enough lenses for 4x5 architecture work.

Here is a thread that discussed this camera in detail, including a number of photos (not all at the beginning of the thread, so look down through it).

Lachlan's presentation of the new XPO (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=57638)

Rick "whose (unfunded) wish list includes this camera" Denney