Walk in Camera Obscura!

[Asher Kelman]

I need help with long lenses for super ULF portraits. Most of my photography work has been with portraits and the majority full length in in the studio with my Canon 5DII.

I'm so impressed with the giant prints made by Richard Learoyd I saw last week in San Francisco that I want to do my work without any post processing in Photoshop, just shoot and then develop the paper. However, I don't know enough about lens coverage and the choices available.

I realize that it would be simple to put a hole in a wall between two rooms and one would be for hanging Ilfochrome paper and the other for the models. So I need a nice bellows to fit on the wall for fine focus and lenses to project 40x72 or thereabouts on to a vertical easel in the "camera" room.

So what lenses are the best options. I'd like to have both soft focus and sharp focus choices with sufficient coverage. Lighting will be by strobes with large close light sources.

The camera room is 12 ft wide.

Your guidance will be much appreciated!

Asher

[Marc B.]

Is he not answering your personal inquiries, or have you not tried?

www.richardlearoyd.com

Studio +44-(0)20-737-1750
Mobile +44-(0)7958-390133

UK Time Zone...don't forget.

[Jason Greenberg Motamedi]

That is a pretty big piece of paper and would require ~82" of coverage. However, I would guess since you will be working portraits you will be in the 1:1 or above range, so a 47" Apo Artar or 1200mm Apo Ronar or Nikkor would probably cover and work well. Depending on magnification, a 35" Artar or equivalent might also work.

Soft focus? Maybe just a huge achromat bought from an optics house.

[Mark Woods]

Hello Asher, Instead of bellows, why not set up a calibrated movable stand for the paper. This wouldn't be so different from AAs enlarger.

[Dan Fromm]

According to the Rodenstock Process Lens Handbook, at 1:1 the 1200/16 Apo Ronar covers 40"x50" and the 1800/16 covers 60"x80". Per Nikon long Apo Nikkors cover a bit less than the comparable Apo Ronars. I doubt that Apo Artars cover more.

With an 1800, at 1:1 will the film will have to be 3.6 m from the lens' rear node, which is ~ 15 mm behind the diaphragm. 3.6 m is .18' short of 12'. The subject will have to be 3.6 m from the lens' front node, which is ~ 15 mm in front of the lens' diaphragm. How big is the room the subject will be in?

When designing something like Asher's fantasy of the day there's no way around doing the calculations. Doing the calculations requires, among other things, having the lenses' specifications. Rule of thumb guesses based on wishful thinking just won't do.

[Asher Kelman]

That is a pretty big piece of paper and would require ~82" of coverage. However, I would guess since you will be working portraits you will be in the 1:1 or above range, so a 47" Apo Artar or 1200mm Apo Ronar or Nikkor would probably cover and work well. Depending on magnification, a 35" Artar or equivalent might also work.

I was imagining I could use from 24 " (for head and shoulders) to 400" for full body with some vignetting. These larger lengths would be great too.

'll try to find out what Richard Learoyd used here (http://www.fraenkelgallery.com/index.php#mi=&pt=1&pi=10000&s=7&p=0&a=16&at=1). I'll call the Fraenkel Gallery. Some are H&S, others are reclining nudes and there's wonderful vignetting!

So the image circle might be not more than about 50-70 inches it seems.


Soft focus? Maybe just a huge achromat bought from an optics house.

Maybe! There's a rumor to that idea. I am checking with the folk at the Fraenkel Gallery. Otherwise I'll try to call the mother country tomorrow!

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

...
With an 1800, at 1:1 will the film will have to be 3.6 m from the lens' rear node, which is ~ 15 mm behind the diaphragm. 3.6 m is .18' short of 12'. The subject will have to be 3.6 m from the lens' front node, which is ~ 15 mm in front of the lens' diaphragm. How big is the room the subject will be in?

Dan,

Thanks for helping out. The subjects room is just over 12 foot wide and the camera room is actually closer to 15 1/2 feet.


When designing something like Asher's fantasy of the day there's no way around doing the calculations. Doing the calculations requires, among other things, having the lenses' specifications. Rule of thumb guesses based on wishful thinking just won't do.

Without the fantasy, there's no need for science, without the fantasy, there are no questions!

Asher

[Dan Fromm]

Asher, there's no science here, just a desire to do something. Given what's known and what you say you want to accomplish, its an engineering problem. Straightforward one, too.

[Asher Kelman]

It would be interesting to get some guestimates on what were used in Richard Learoyd's pictures.
here (http://www.fraenkelgallery.com/index.php#mi=&pt=1&pi=10000&s=7&p=0&a=16&at=1). I've called the Fraenkel Gallery just now and they are not sure but one curator thought that he used "8x10 lenses".

It turns out that the photographer spends all day on a shoot and has tape and draws on models to shape how they will pose and where their hands are etc.He's very skilled in lighting it seems and has a great sense of esthetics and beauty. But also he's a cold realist, with nothing, not even a bump removed or hidden!

It could be that the images are with wider lenses than I imagined for full length shots. What do you think?

Asher

[Mark Sampson]

If you're going to channel Mr. Learoyd's method, why not approach him directly?
If you don't intend to clone his work, he may be willing to share.

[Tom J McDonald]

Asher, good luck, I'm sorry I can't help you.
Learoyd's portraits are incredible in my opinion.

[William Whitaker]

Well, the corners look pretty dark to me, so I'm suspecting that whatever lens he's using doesn't cover entirely, even at that relatively close distance. Then, as the gallery spiel says, the "subject... occupies one room containing a powerful light source..." Yeah, no kidding. Have you considered what it's going to take to get any acceptable DOF?

[Asher Kelman]

Asher, good luck, I'm sorry I can't help you.
Learoyd's portraits are incredible in my opinion.

Well, I must admit, I was blown away by the pictures, especially of the redhead in H&S, black blouse and red top.

Asher

[Mark Woods]

I think the lens is slightly wide. If you look at the nude with her back to the camera, her thigh is slightly closer to the camera, and it appears disproportionately large compared to the rest of her body. Most of the shots have the individual in the same plane with a "limbo" bg, so there isn't much there to indicate the lens. My $.02.

[Asher Kelman]

Well, the corners look pretty dark to me, so I'm suspecting that whatever lens he's using doesn't cover entirely, even at that relatively close distance. Then, as the gallery spiel says, the "subject... occupies one room containing a powerful light source..." Yeah, no kidding. Have you considered what it's going to take to get any acceptable DOF?

Will,

I have no limit to power for my lighting. I'm assuming its f32. So that's 4 stops more than my usual for portraits and there I'd use 50 W/S at f 5.6 for the main light. That would by 800 W.S at ISO 160 on my 5DII at f 32, but here the paper is ISO 25!!! So that means more than 3200 W.S. girl must be blinded!! Maybe the room lights are on too!

Is it possible that the paper can be rated higher so less light is needed? So it looks like the lens cannot be so long as we think and the aperture has to be about f22!

Asher

[Jay DeFehr]

If you're planning to shoot anything like 1:1 with a 1200mm lens, f/64 won't even begin to give you the kind of dof in Learoyd's images. Practically speaking, you'll probably need to shoot at 1:2, or more, and use very small apertures, and have a LOT of light, and long exposures. It's a daunting task, to say the least. I think the hardware bits are the least challenging of the aspects, compared to the optical ones. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, fortune favors the bold, etc., etc. Good luck!

[Mark Woods]

I shoot with a Quad Tube Speed-O-Tron at 9600 Watt Seconds all the time. I use to light the Pendelton Women's Wear and I would shoot 5 times that (48000 WS) all the time. It's a HUGE release of light. My hair use to stand on end after it was washed back by the photons. It can be done, and still have wonderful lighting for shape and detail.

[Asher Kelman]

If you're planning to shoot anything like 1:1 with a 1200mm lens, f/64 won't even begin to give you the kind of dof in Learoyd's images. Practically speaking, you'll probably need to shoot at 1:2, or more, and use very small apertures, and have a LOT of light, and long exposures. It's a daunting task, to say the least. I think the hardware bits are the least challenging of the aspects, compared to the optical ones. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, fortune favors the bold, etc., etc. Good luck!

Jay,

Looking at the H&S shots makes us think that it's all shot life-size, but that's probably an illusion. The pictures seem to be either 40x60 head and shoulders or else perhaps 72x40 in landscape mode for the reclining nudes. I wonder if that could be even a 600mm or 750 mm lens would suffice as the illuminated circles of these lenses is likely what we are seeing and the edges have neither contrast nor resolution f one examines the pictures in the photographer's gallery. That would be super wide, with great DOF and more easily done. For the DOF equivalent of f2.8, (for my usual portraits in 35 mm Canon 5DII full frame DSLR format, on a 50 mm lens), the 750 mm ULF lens would have to be stopped down to 1/15 or ~ f32. That limits the light! So perhaps the lens is 750mm f22 and then the flash is about 2000W.S. (40 x the 50 WS used at 160 ISO and f 5.6) and maybe the development of the paper is pushed a stop and the room lights are on!

I can see that the air conditioning has to be on and one has to ace the lights before the model arrives!

So I'll see what I can do with a 600 mm lens. Just need to mount it and play.

Any further ideas will be appreciated. Looking at the works on display is at the very least inspiring. It and proves that with the right lenses it's just a matter of a) physics and then b) talent to start getting pictures.

and experiments are fun!

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

I shoot with a Quad Tube Speed-O-Tron at 9600 Watt Seconds all the time. I use to light the Pendelton Women's Wear and I would shoot 5 times that (48000 WS) all the time. It's a HUGE release of light. My hair use to stand on end after it was washed back by the photons. It can be done, and still have wonderful lighting for shape and detail.

What was the reaction of the models!!!!

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

...
Learoyd's portraits are incredible in my opinion.

Tom,

I have to come back to that. Incredible and a great technical and artistic achievement. His work is thrilling to experience. Richard Learoyd provides an immense and exciting challenge for anyone with a passion for photography. So I said to myself, why not learn from this!

First I'll work in 8x10 with the lighting with Efke B&W at ISO 25 at f22, 32, 44 standing in for Ilfochrome paper. Then I'll be ready for the 600 mm lens and I'll work up from there. I hope I don't need anything larger than 1000 mm!

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

Is he not answering your personal inquiries, or have you not tried?

www.richardlearoyd.com




If you're going to channel Mr. Learoyd's method, why not approach him directly?
If you don't intend to clone his work, he may be willing to share.

Well, I finally got hold of him. I just wanted the artist's rep of the gallery to let him know first. He's a really friendly chap. It turns out he uses, as I was surmising a 750mm focal length and at f 22! However, the lighting is far more powerful!!! Ugh! Also, this is no taped together solution. He uses all Broncolor and so that the duration is ultrashort and the models only flinch! I have to get the number right, but he uses a ring light and 2 others for a total of 31,000 Joules. I have to recheck this, as it may well be higher. We're talking again later. Anyway, Broncolor, unless I sell of my best 8x10 lenses and my wife, are out of the range of my current gear! Those lenses I could manage without but wouldn't generate enough to cover Broncolor!

Renting seems the best option!

Asher

[William Whitaker]

You can see the ring light in the catch light in the homepage photo.

[Asher Kelman]

You can see the ring light in the catch light in the homepage photo.

....and also to one side of the photographer, a second more massive ring light to be detailed below.

We chatted again. Richard Learoyd is not only very talented, but also and interesting and highly disciplined person worthy of knowing.

The central light is a ring light and that is 8000 watt.seconds or Joules. Then there is a separate ~ 1 meter squared array of lights in a circle made from 6 3,200 watt.second lights, each with their own power supply. The numbers I added up came to 27,200 watt.seconds. The model is just 4 feet away and the rest of the setup is done via reflectors. I light an entire building with 6,000 watt.seconds! Obviously to a far less extent! This load of gear is rentable for just $750- $1,000/day.

BTW, Ilfochrome, is rated at 3 ISO not 25 as I suggested earlier. The cannot be changed or else the processing machine will give unbalanced colors!

Asher

[Tracy Storer]

Interesting work !
I had thoughts of doing similar years ago when I was one of the cameramen for the Polaroid 40"x80"....
I may try to get to SF tomorrow to see this show.
Asher, I'd be happy to chat with you a bit about this if you really want to pursue it.

[Mark Woods]

Well, Joan Severance and Kathy Ireland both thought it was good for their skin. ;-) They could "feel" the light.

[Asher Kelman]

Interesting work !
I had thoughts of doing similar years ago when I was one of the cameramen for the Polaroid 40"x80"....
I may try to get to SF tomorrow to see this show.
Asher, I'd be happy to chat with you a bit about this if you really want to pursue it.

Tracey,

My hat off to you in greetings! Are you embedded in the Impossible Project? Where are you located now. I wish I'd have gotten a large format Polaroid camera. I nearly bought one of Wisner's creations, but then everything became obscure there.

I wonder if one could use Polaroid film in place of the paper on the wall in a camera obscura and then feed it into the processor? That would certainly need less flash power! I'd love to chat with you. The exhibit is still tomorrow, June 25th. I hope you won't miss it. For sure you'll have great ideas on suitable lenses!

I've had two discussions with Richard, so far and am so impressed as to what an interesting artist he is. It's refreshing to meet an such an accomplished and technically skilled artist who is still willing to discuss his work candidly. Will post that and a review of the exhibition shortly.

I must admit, your own work with the Polaroids inspired me to focus on full length portraits. That shoot we had was a blast and I'll never forget it!

So, what lenses would you suggest. I checked Ilfachrome paper and the widest from B&H, at least, is 50 inches! I Imagine paper 50" x 60". Got to find someone with a processor near me! I plan to start at 8" X 10" with a PS 945 mm lens wide open, to get a feel for the process and lighting and then scale it up to the 750mm lens. By pulling back from f22 to f 4.5, I will get the limited DOF and yet have more light on the paper and so be able to use just about, 1500 -2000 Watt seconds or so instead of the 27,000 W.S. Richard Learoyd uses. In no way am I going to try to make pictures in his style and with his values. His work is very unique, fine and a quality to be admired. That's his art alone! Rather I'm inspired to use his medium for my own expression. So this is entirely doable and will be a great challenge and fun!

Now where do I find candidates for a 750 mm lens?

Thanks,

Asher

[Tracy Storer]

Asher, check 20x24studio.com (my pals in NYC) for news of collaborations with impossible. I am currently building two more 20x24 cameras for instant film for 20x24-NY.
I went and saw the Learoyd show at Fraenkel, very interesting work, larger-than-life+one-of-a-kind.... I quite like the work. For me, the images are successful not only for their size, but also good compositions, poses, expressions, etc. they would be interesting images in a smaller size as well, the grand scale adds a layer of interest.

In fact, Polaroid film could be used, I spent many many days inside the Polaroid 40"x80" camera (essentially a camera obscura) in the early '90s in Boston. That camera and film-format are now defunct, probably never to rise again. But the Ilfochrome option is intriguing, also, I think there is now a direct pos. B+W material from Ilford, not sure of the maximum size available.

Keep your eye on Ebay for 600-750-800mm lenses if you want to pursue this. Also, watch the FS listings here, I have bought and sold such lenses on here. Watch for the faster process lenses of f/9, you'll want the speed, and they sometimes don't command the highest prices since they are too heavy for most cameras.

I strongly suggest you do a lot of testing with 8x10 before cutting that hole in the wall.
: )
T

[Asher Kelman]

Tracy,

Sure pleased you managed to see the exhibit. Besides the technical tour deforce, and for sure it is, he is talented as an artist. It's reassuring to have someone so close by who has actually the experience with this format and survived to tell the tale!

Yes, I'll be doing work scaled down with the 8x10. It makes sense. Why buy or rent strobes until the exposure and processing is perfected. Also I can still do a lot of damage with 18" lenses, as I scale up, until I get the 600-800 lengths.

Asher

[johnielvis]

NOTE--you CAN shoot regular paper as a direct positive--I've done it recently and it works---blue sensitive, however, but same results as ilford direct positive paper---you use the regular reversal process--develop, bleach re-expose-re-develop/fix

paper is S L O W though--like EI of 2 or so--like wet plate speed...2-6, depending on the paper. I tried to contact a guy here in town that has photobooth paper but he won't tell me where he gets his paper from---and his paper is only in like 1 1/2 inch rolls---totally useless---unless you want to tape a bunch of strips together

anybody know where to get high speed paper from? It exists--they do have it, but everybody who has it is very secretive.

SO---get a roll of b/w paper and some dichromate bleach and have some fun---it's dead simple in a safelight developing it.

[Asher Kelman]

NOTE--you CAN shoot regular paper as a direct positive--I've done it recently and it works---blue sensitive, however, but same results as ilford direct positive paper---you use the regular reversal process--develop, bleach re-expose-re-develop/fix

Johnielvis,

Great idea! For sure, someone might come up with another choice. However, the blue-sensitive paper does have a drawback. I didn't like the insertion of the word, "re-expose", LOL!

The idea is to be able to process the paper in one simple step! That's great thing about the Ilfochrome or Polaroid!

Asher

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

hello from old Europe !

The German artist Susanna Krauss is using such a walk-in camera obscura, named "Imago 1:1".
She take portraits of people at 1:1 scale.
She uses direct-positive paper but I have no idea of the lens in use.

Harman direct positive paper is available, suffice to check the maximum size avalaible.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_c0ke94VNyKk/TQQMTkhBEII/AAAAAAAABi0/TGCRHvP3ieM/s1600/Imago+1-1+%2528Suzanna+Kraus%2529.jpg (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_c0ke94VNyKk/TQQMTkhBEII/AAAAAAAABi0/TGCRHvP3ieM/s1600/Imago+1-1+%2528Suzanna+Kraus%2529.jpg)

http://static3.unlike.net/system/photos/0056/5498/Imago_1-1.jpg?1263905733 (http://static3.unlike.net/system/photos/0056/5498/Imago_1-1.jpg?1263905733)

keywords search : Susanna Krauss Imago

[Asher Kelman]

hello from old Europe !

The German artist Susanna Krauss is using such a walk-in camera obscura, named "Imago 1:1".
She take portraits of people at 1:1 scale.
She uses direct-positive paper but I have no idea of the lens in use.

Harman direct positive paper is available, suffice to check the maximum size avalaible.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_c0ke94VNyKk/TQQMTkhBEII/AAAAAAAABi0/TGCRHvP3ieM/s1600/Imago+1-1+%2528Suzanna+Kraus%2529.jpg (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_c0ke94VNyKk/TQQMTkhBEII/AAAAAAAABi0/TGCRHvP3ieM/s1600/Imago+1-1+%2528Suzanna+Kraus%2529.jpg)

http://static3.unlike.net/system/photos/0056/5498/Imago_1-1.jpg?1263905733 (http://static3.unlike.net/system/photos/0056/5498/Imago_1-1.jpg?1263905733)

keywords search : Susanna Krauss Imago

Emmanuel,

Thanks for those links! There are some great videos on youtube!

She does beautiful work and says she has Euro100,000 invested in it. I just wonder about it's fixed vertical format. We'll it does keep her style in one format, but she's pretty versatile and creative in bringing style into that small place.

I can easily see how one can spend that much money, especially if one has a connected roller feed processor with a current service contract!

The B&W paper seems very effective, but I couldn't see much evidence for detail in the dark tones. Likely, it doesn't show well on the computer screen. Also there does not seem to be a lot to alter in the lighting as there's so little room to work in!

Still, she's so talented and her project is fun! It seems that it works as a gigantic street kiosk camera booth, just scaled beyond anyone's dreams!

It seems she charges 365 Euros for a picture, but maybe that's just her cost!!! My German is not that good!

Asher

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

The B&W paper seems very effective, but I couldn't see much evidence for detail in the dark tones.

I do not know which direct positive paper is used by Susanna Krauss. She made an arrangement with a supplier, and for some time this kind of paper has been marketed under the "Krauss" brand, or "private label" if you prefer

Now that Harman direct-positive paper is available, we are, in principle, all set to try this kind of work.

I attended the last Photokina in Cologne in Oct. 2010 and Harman had a booth dedicated to this paper with some examples of results.
Some friends in France did some test shots recently in daylight at one of our informal gatherings, in the Jura.
The first feed-back I got about the Harman direct positive was that the baryt version is more pleasant than the RC version. The second feed-back is that the contrast of the paper is hard and that you need some pre-exposure to somehow manage its contrast. No details in shadows is unfortunately soemthing you have to live with. hence the lower the contrast of the subject, the better.
Some preliminary data on pre-exposure tests with the Baryt version (http://www.galerie-photo.info/forumgp/read.php?5,63188,page=4)
- pre-exposure 3.5 s under an enlarger, the meter in incident light reading @iso 100 being 2 minutes @f/5.6
- outdoor, sunny-16 conditions : paper ISO rating 1 to 3 ISO, typical exposure 1 second @f/22
I'm missing the actual developer, I assume it is a standard paper developer like PQ universal or dektol.

As a summary : worth trying, great for one-shots "in the camera" "at last a true original print"; but less, far less flexible than the conventional neg/pos process...
It would be nice to know if contrast can be managed by processing the paper in a film developer instead as a paper developer. I have no idea about this.

[Asher Kelman]

The B&W paper seems very effective, but I couldn't see much evidence for detail in the dark tones.

I do not know which direct positive paper is used by Susanna Krauss. She made an arrangement with a supplier, and for some time this kind of paper has been marketed under the "Krauss" brand, or "private label" if you prefer

Now that Harman direct-positive paper is available, we are, in principle, all set to try this kind of work.

I attended the last Photokina in Cologne in Oct. 2010 and Harman had a booth dedicated to this paper with some examples of results.
Some friends in France did some test shots recently in daylight at one of our informal gatherings, in the Jura.
The first feed-back I got about the Harman direct positive was that the baryt version is more pleasant than the RC version. The second feed-back is that the contrast of the paper is hard and that you need some pre-exposure to somehow manage its contrast. No details in shadows is unfortunately soemthing you have to live with. hence the lower the contrast of the subject, the better.
Some preliminary data on pre-exposure tests with the Baryt version (http://www.galerie-photo.info/forumgp/read.php?5,63188,page=4)
- pre-exposure 3.5 s under an enlarger, the meter in incident light reading @iso 100 being 2 minutes @f/5.6
- outdoor, sunny-16 conditions : paper ISO rating 1 to 3 ISO, typical exposure 1 second @f/22
I'm missing the actual developer, I assume it is a standard paper developer like PQ universal or dektol.

As a summary : worth trying, great for one-shots "in the camera" "at last a true original print"; but less, far less flexible than the conventional neg/pos process...
It would be nice to know if contrast can be managed by processing the paper in a film developer instead as a paper developer. I have no idea about this.

Emmanuel,

I went to the site, but missed seeing the test pictures. Maybe my French is worse than I think!

Amitiés,

Asher

[Asher Kelman]

For UULF, our Tracy Storer, who runs the "merely" ULF Polaroid 20x24 Studio West (http://www.mammothcamera.com/rental.html) in San Francisco introduced me to ULF photography when he came to LA with his mammoth 20x24 camera and guided me in my portraits of two fine young models, (one under age who we had to keep dressed), my wife, cheering us with snacks and good humor!

Tracey has been dedicated to ULF for many years and even builds his cameras by hand, machining and crafting every piece. He was one of a select team of pioneers, heavily involved in the even larger full person length, room sized, UULF Polaroid camera and spending much time in it! That work came to it's fruition after 911 when some iconic images were taken by Joe Macnally here (http://www.joemcnally.com/blog/2010/09/13/the-foley-family/) using a lot of work that the Polaroid group put into that massive UULF camera. The resultant, book, Faces of Ground Zero: Portraits of the Heroes of September 11, 2001] (http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/faces-of-ground-zero-joe-mcnally/1005173037) is worthy of having a long list of silent authors.

In addition Susanna Krauss's camera, by comparison, must be considered a small booth, where she does miracles. Richard Learoyd, who's direct Cibachrome work we've just discussed), accomplishes feats of technical mastery and sublime timeless artistry. Imagine color balancing 5800 degree K color flash for film that's made for Tungsten light! Each time one adds a filter, that action can forces one to correct for loss of light and the power has to be increased and UV has to be removed. It must be an immense days work to get a picture! Then, for real fun, here's a youtube video, Shaun Irving's Camera Truck (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nC3Tu9JxI3g)!

The result of this disparate UULF work is inspiring with larger than life Polaroid images of fireman in NY after 911, B&W giants from folk in the booth in Germany, meticulous timeless real humanity from England and then messy but artful van-wall-paper images from Spain! Each photographer is producing remarkably different work and each has a special presence, hardly possible with any other more modest camera.

So there's tons of inspiring work for us be stimulated by. I look forward to some fun and hope others will join in too!

Please add your ideas and any other UULF projects you have discovered! For sure, we have just touched the surface of what has been achieved on a regular, not one time basis, where an artist's vision and identity becomes one with the camera.

Asher

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Emmanuel,
I went to the site, but missed seeing the test pictures. Maybe my French is worse than I think!
Amitiés,

To the best of my knowledge, participants to this meeting did not (yet) scan & post the images they made on direct-positive paper. The discussion just mentions basic parameters that were used.
For those interested, the meeting took place at a farmhouse / Bed & Breakfast accomodation (Gîte Le Coupet, les Crozets, Jura, France) where the owner, Patrick Toussaint, is a professional fine art printer with whom we had, of course, most interesting exchanges.

[Asher Kelman]

Emmanuel,
I went to the site, but missed seeing the test pictures. Maybe my French is worse than I think!
Amitiés,

To the best of my knowledge, participants to this meeting did not (yet) scan & post the images they made on direct-positive paper. The discussion just mentions basic parameters that were used.
For those interested, the meeting took place at a farmhouse / Bed & Breakfast accomodation (Gîte Le Coupet, les Crozets, Jura, France) where the owner, Patrick Toussaint, is a professional fine art printer with whom we had, of course, most interesting exchanges.

Emmanuel,

I'm looking to seeing the work. Let us know when it's put on line.

Meanwhile, I've purchased my first lens for the UULF, the 760mm Nikkor f11 with a an image circle of 1120mm at infinity.

Asher

[Dan Fromm]

Asher, I regret to inform you that according to Nikon the 760/11 Apo-Nikkor covers 42 degrees. This is equivalent to an image circle of 583 mm at infinity.

An image circle of 1120 mm at infinity and focal length of 760 mm imply angle covered of 72.8 degrees. This is considerably more than Nikon claims and is out of the range of most, if not all, process lenses that long. Your new treasure is a good lens but it doesn't pass the smell test.

Where did you get your information? Mine comes from Nikon catalogs.

[Dan Fromm]

If 380350166815, good snag.

However, he took his data from here http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%8B%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E7%94%A3%E6%A5%AD%E7%94%A8%E3%83%BB%E7%89%B9%E6%AE%8A%E7%94%A8%E3%83%AC%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BA%E3%81%AE%E4%B8%80%E8%A6%A7 (use Google Translate) or here http://homepage2.nifty.com/akiyanroom/redbook-e/collection/moriya.html . Can you spell asexual reproduction? One of the many wonderful things about the 'net is that it facilitates propagation of errors.

Thing is, those Japanese sites give process lenses/ image circles at 1:1. The unwary -- where was your inbuilt BS detector? -- are often misled by them.

[Asher Kelman]

If 380350166815, good snag.

However, he took his data from here http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%8B%E3%82%B3%E3%83%B3%E7%94%A3%E6%A5%AD%E7%94%A8%E3%83%BB%E7%89%B9%E6%AE%8A%E7%94%A8%E3%83%AC%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BA%E3%81%AE%E4%B8%80%E8%A6%A7 (use Google Translate) or here http://homepage2.nifty.com/akiyanroom/redbook-e/collection/moriya.html . Can you spell asexual reproduction? One of the many wonderful things about the 'net is that it facilitates propagation of errors.

Thing is, those Japanese sites give process lenses/ image circles at 1:1. The unwary -- where was your inbuilt BS detector? -- are often misled by them.
C'est mon défaut!

I thought it was at infinity. Still it's just 200 Euro and I can play with it for tests on getting focus on my movable screen. I was looking for a Germinar and saw this one in France! Still, it will fit on my old 10x12 antique English wooden camera or perhaps the Chamonix 8x10 with a special lensboard.

Asher

[Dan Fromm]

As I wrote, good snag. Well worth the money.

Remember that for a given prescription the longer the focal length the less the coverage. This because the longer the focal length the larger the aberrations. Some of them grow off-axis ...

[Asher Kelman]

As I wrote, good snag. Well worth the money.

Remember that for a given prescription the longer the focal length the less the coverage. This because the longer the focal length the larger the aberrations. Some of them grow off-axis ...Thanks Dan!

The Nikkor, BTW, is wide open. The Germinar at 1000 mm will be better at f22. I'd like to be able to cover a 30" x 72" or 40x72 or better. It may take approaching it with different lenses and starting of at 30"x40" and the 760mm might cover that.

My initial work, anyway is going to be getting test prints with 8x10 sampling over the image field and getting the flash and color temp worked out. So there's a lot of work ahead. Still, any discoveries in lenses would be welcome.

Asher

[Dan Fromm]

Asher, according to the 1982 Apo-Nikkor catalog I have in front of me -- links to two (!) scans of it are posted here: http://savazzi.freehostia.com/photography/old_literature.htm and be aware that the 1982 catalog doesn't list tessar type Apo-Nikkors but I have an older one, not in front of me, that does -- dialyte type Apo Nikkors gain evenness of illumination, not image circle, on stopping down.

Your (if it arrives) 760/11's image circle at 1:1 is given as 1170 mm = 46". This is a bit shy of 30"x40"'s diagonal. At 1:1 30x40 won't give you the full body portrait you say you want. The 1780/14's image circle of 2310 mm = 91" will cover 40"x72"'s diagonal but you don't have the room to use it. And it is a very uncommon lens.

You can't satisfy all of the constraints you've imposed on yourself at the same time, at least one will have to go.

[jb7]

Nikon's published image circles are quite conservative, and seem to be based on a minimum resolution criterion. Since the resolution requirement of a directly captured print image should be way below Nikon's minimum requirement, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you were able to make a much bigger image than Nikon's data would suggest-

Look forward to seeing the results- it's the only way to really tell...


j

[Dan Fromm]

Nikon's published image circles are quite conservative, and seem to be based on a minimum resolution criterion. Since the resolution requirement of a directly captured print image should be way below Nikon's minimum requirement, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you were able to make a much bigger image than Nikon's data would suggest-

Look forward to seeing the results- it's the only way to really tell...


jJoseph, your points are well taken but I'm not completely convinced about the significance of Nikon's high standards. This because Rodenstock's published MTF curves for Apo Ronars usually show 8, sometimes 4, lp/mm contrast no better than 10% at the edge of the circle covered. Apo Ronars are very much like dialyte type Apo Nikkors, so it seems unlikely that Apo Nikkors perform better. Emmanuel Bigler recently posted a link to Rodenstock's Process Lens Manual, if you're interested you might want to find it and follow it.

That said, the OP has confused me -- and may have confused himself -- by starting two threads on wonder lenses. This one is about his fascination with Learoyd's images and his desire to replicate Learoyd's equipment and results. The other is about his fascination with the Gigapixel monstrosity and his desire to accomplish what it does for considerably less money. What the two have in common is long lenses with, the OP says, high resolution. His Learoyd dream lens needs large coverage as well.

You're right that direct capture requires much less resolution than making negatives that can be enlarged a lot. I'm not sure you're right that direct capture with a lens not fit for the job (any lens that doesn't have the coverage the OP insists he needs and focal length short enough to fit his room) will give the OP the image quality he says he needs. I could be mistaken.

That said, I'm not sure he needs as much image quality as he thinks. I've looked at Learoyd images -- Google found some for me -- and they have no detail at all in or near the corners. Learoyd can get away using a lens that illuminates the corners at nil resolution. More information that Google found for me -- the links are upthread -- suggests that his 750 Apo Germinar does just that.

I'm glad the the OP has bought a lens to try out. I don't know how long it will be in transit from France -- last year I bought a 900/10 Apo Saphir from a German seller and the poor thing was in DHL limbo for a couple of months -- or how long getting to the first trials will take after the OP has it in hand. No matter, I'm looking forward to hearing how well it works for him. I half expect that no matter what it does he'll declare victory; that's another empirical question to be settled by analyzing data.

[jb7]

I've looked at Learoyd images -- Google found some for me -- and they have no detail at all in or near the corners. Learoyd can get away using a lens that illuminates the corners at nil resolution.

Well that is the point really-
even if you used a lens that resolved out to the edges, the chances of finding anything in focus at the edges would be pretty slim, based on the magnifications involved.
I think it's far more important to find a lens that illuminates a big circle without vignetting- any resolution at actual coverage will be a bonus, paid for by millions of watt/seconds.

Using larger formats, it's usually less important to resolve detail out to the edges for portraits and figure studies- depending on what you set out to achieve, of course-

[Asher Kelman]

Thanks Dan and Joseph for you helpful comments. These are allowing me to modify my willingness to accept disruption. My wife and I have agreed on having a setup, shooting and knockdown schedule so that the house can be regained as a home in good time!! I'll safely roll up the paper and put it in a tube for processing later.

Some notes on restraints. I will use any part of my house and design a "démontable" room that can go anywhere. The front will be strong to hold the lens. The inside will contain a vacuum easel. There's now no length constraint.

I've just purchased the 1000 mm Jena Apo Germinar too, this time from Germany.

If the 760 mm Nikkor can nicely cover 30"x40" that makes for a nice size for a lot of work. The 1000 mm Germinar should give enough central detail for as perfect image. I would always want fall off at the periphery. That was my training in the darkroom and after all how we concentrate on one matter at a time.

Dan,

You're quite correct in wondering how I can sanely have two such disparate sets of conditions going on in my mind, each involving super-large prints! This project, directly printing on paper, does not require or want detail to the edges. The other project which, in homage to, (and inspired by), the work of Peter Brueghel the elder, involves many figures all over a communal scene (http://www.brucevanpatter.com/brueghel_painting.html), a fine resolution lens in a non-giant format is the quest.

Here in this project, there will be just 1-2 figures. I've already done some work with 20"x24" Polaroids and there I shot pictures with a digital camera until I like the composition and at that point took the picture, LF.

No one will make pictures Learoyd makes, and that's not my intent at all. I just admire the feat of going direct to print and the intimate relationship between the photographer and the giant image projected into the dark room.

I have a lot of work to do and appreciate the support and kind advice on the way.

Asher

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Asher,

don't most 'Artar" type dialytes double in focal length when you remove the front cell? Should be a massive coverage increase.

Just a thought.

[Asher Kelman]

Asher,

don't most 'Artar" type dialytes double in focal length when you remove the front cell? Should be a massive coverage increase.

Just a thought.

Jim,

That's a great point. My first job, after mounting them with some sort of shutter is too look at that. It's like getting a ton of real estate for free! The corrections might get screwed up in the periphery, but that may not matter too much.

The other job is setting up my Ilfochrome system on a small scale. I'm hoping I can efficiently cut up Ilfochrome 8x10 paper to 4x5 to load 4x5 film holders to get used to Ilfochrome processing in Jobo drums. I have a 3010 and am looking for a processor.

Asher

[Dan Fromm]

Asher,

don't most 'Artar" type dialytes double in focal length when you remove the front cell? Should be a massive coverage increase.

Just a thought. Nope. Think about lenses sold as convertibles. And the individual cells' back focuses will be, depending on their spacing in the complete lens, from 1.5x to 2x the complete lens' back focus.

[Asher Kelman]

Guys,

There's a Rodenstock Apo-Ronar CL 760mm/f14in Ilex #5 shutter on eBay for $2120! My 760mm Nikkor f11 cost a fraction of that but has no shutter yet. How are these likely to compare in quality and image circle? Remember, there's the image circle 1:! at f22 of these process lens and then there must be an additional added rim of lesser quality imaging that does not meet map and copy makers standards. Otherwise, how does Learoyd do his full length figures with the 760 mm Zeiss Germinar?

Also, are there other lenses I should look at too? For a great lens, weight doesn't matter as I can leave it mounted in the wall or even have one fixed lens and one changeable lens. I seem to be only focusing on process lenses! Once I assemble my collection, I'll make a mount that, (where possible in size and weight), can also be used on my Chamonix 8x10 and go on a larger board to fit a square hole in a wall of the room to be used for the camera.

I'd love to have a soft focus lens but the depth of focus would be impossibly thin.

Any advice on a prism to flip the image left to right when shooting a violinist or clothed or decorated person where that might be important?

Asher

[johnielvis]

I posted in lenses about NOS lenses available--BIG lenses and reversing prisms....nobody seemed to payattention...get a price quote...all apparently available

check rolyn optics rolyn.com