Another article to irritate people

[Bruce Barlow]

My article "Old Guys" apparently pissed off a lot of people, judging from the feedback.

Well, if that one irritated you, this one surely will:

http://circleofthesunproductions.com/documents/PracticingPhotography.pdf

A painter friend has already asked to give it to all her students. But they're painters.

Cheers! Enjoy! Get mad!

[Daniel Stone]

I don't see why we should "get mad"? Practice makes perfect. Heck, look at those young prodigies out of asia who play piano pieces so gracefully at the age of 8 that make the "masters" fail! I mean, if you REALLY want to master your craft/technique, then you HAVE TO PRACTICE! There was an article a few months back(and I believe also a book) about "Tiger Moms" or something of the like. So many people call it "cruel and unusual" to not let the children have/go to sleep-overs, attend birthday parties, EAT/snack, UNTIL they had done their exercises(not just in music IIRC). I call it GENIUS. Parents KNOWING that they HAVE to push their children to SUCCEED at something helped to foster the same feeling of "getting it done" in the children as well. "Cruel and unusual": well, to some it might seem cruel, but unusual? Definitely... Those kids are able to play piano/violin,etc.. better that 99% of other kids their age. That's something they can be proud of, children AND parents.

Personally, I've taken up light-painting still-lifes with my small digicam, late at night when the rest of the family has gone to bed. I use a single Nikon flash, with reflectors, mirrors, etc., to "build" a photograph, in addition to "painting" more detail into shadows, highlights, etc...

Being able to transfer this knowledge onto MF or LF film use for final shots lets me learn faster(digital feedback on the screen), rather than wasting money on Polaroid test prints.

"practice makes perfect" someone much wiser than me stated a LONG time ago. I believe in that whole-heartedly.

I also blame it on today's "instant gratification" culture. Instant payment for items bought/sold, next-day shipping, download-what-you-want-NOW, etc... IMO, its just feeding the problem of impatience. Patience, and practice, again IMO, go hand in hand. People for the most part give up when the going gets tough. But the go-getters get it done, and when they do, people marvel at their achievement. As they should.

thanks for sharing!

-Dan

[Dan Fromm]

What's irritating about that? Practice certainly doesn't make perfect, but thoughtful practice does make better.

Y'r Casals story strikes a chord. I used to use the 3d suite's allemande as an audition piece, still try to play at least a movement from a Bach suite daily. But you got the rule slightly wrong. One does each hard spot until its been done at least ten times in a row without error. A couple or three successes isn't enough.

I'm not sure that photography is quite the same, though, because it calls for relatively more thinking and relatively less muscle memory. But certainly directed practice -- didn't get the desired result? Analyze why not, test the analysis, repeat until the desired result is obtained consistently. -- helps a lot.

While I was at y'r site I found and read old guys. Y'r friend and inspiration Friesen isn't old yet. My friend and inspiration Stanley H. Weitzman is old and he's one of the youngest people I know. Google Stan, he has the most impressive CV I've ever seen and is more impressive as a person. And inspiring, too, if I haven't been clear.

[Nathan Potter]

Not angry (mad). Nice writeup and well said. Sometimes I think my lifes' work has been all practice and I have yet to make a fine and memorable image.

But I'm on my way of solving the "old guy" problem.

Before I croak I need an agreement from some enterprising photographer/camera maker to take my skeletal remains and use the bones to build a large format camera.
I think this is very attractive due to the porous, light and strong characteristics of bone. Ritter, any interest?

Thus this camera would be used indefinitely after I'm gone to extend the possibility of me making a great photograph sometime in the future and so exacerbating the dilemma of me failing to do so in my lifetime. Clearly I'll rest in peace easier and all the years of practice will not have been in vain, even if that image is made by my successors and even if I never see it.

Nate Potter, Austin TX

[William Whitaker]

Good article! Vaguely Picker-esque?...

[bob carnie]

First thing that came to my mind after reading a couple of paragraphs.
those three binders of newsletters are a mere 2 ft from me on a shelf.
Someday will read through them all again.


Good article! Vaguely Picker-esque?...

[Bill Burk]

Thanks Bruce,

Nice workshop handout.

Nathan, First thing came to mind when you said you wanted your remains to be turned into a camera, here's someone for that job.. www.boyofblue.com

[jp]

It's not irritating, it's encouraging us to do more of something we love.

I disagree that practice makes perfect (and no you didn't say that, but it comes to mind easily on this topic), but practice is a valuable process regardless. Even when one has talent, it takes some practice as you've outlined to go from good to great at something.

[Vaughn]

Life is practice.

The trick is to practice correctly...

[Jim Galli]

Ever look at my website. All that stuff is practice. I'm a poor editor, so you get to look at it. You may find a dozen times over the years I've been posting where I tell some zealous newbie the best piece of equipment they can get is a dumpster bin outside the door of the darkroom. Odd how no one wants to hear that. The ones who flatly refuse that advice are the ones who are gone in 6 months. Off to another instant fame.

[Michael Cienfuegos]

Ever look at my website. All that stuff is practice. I'm a poor editor, so you get to look at it. You may find a dozen times over the years I've been posting where I tell some zealous newbie the best piece of equipment they can get is a dumpster bin outside the door of the darkroom. Odd how no one wants to hear that. The ones who flatly refuse that advice are the ones who are gone in 6 months. Off to another instant fame.

I use a shredder myself. Keep wearing 'em out!:(

[Bill_1856]

My article "Old Guys" apparently pissed off a lot of people, judging from the feedback.


Cheers! Enjoy! Get mad!

What article is that?

[mdm]

Nice article. It always annoys me when people refer, self importantly, to ther 'work'. Mine is play, or practice. Lets play photographer more.

[Heroique]

Life is practice.

Death is goofing-off. ;^)

And a fun article, loved it.

[Vaughn]

Death is goofing-off. ;^)

And a fun article, loved it.

Or to rip off an old fire-fighter's slogan...

PPPPP -- Proper Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance

[Heroique]

Or to rip off an old fire-fighter's slogan...

PPPPP -- Proper Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance

(Peter Piper’s Proper Practice Prevents Piss Poor Performance!)

[Bruce Barlow]

Wilhelm - the "Old Guys" article is also on my web site. See first post for the link. Hope you're doing well!

Picker-esque, maybe. He didn't rant about practice to the same intensity, but I can't deny the influence.

Thanks for the kind words, everybody!

I always wonder whether, by "practicing" all the time I avoid failing. If it's only "practice," then failure doesn't enter into the equation... Funny how I left that idea out of the article...

[Rick Tardiff]

Thanks Bruce

[Mike Castles]

Have been unable to 'practice' much over the last couple of years and will verify just about everything Bruce wrote.

Thanks Bruce, nice work.

[Leigh]

To answer your question: "What is our practice?"

banality

Any damned fool with a p&s can take a good picture of a great subject.

The mark of a good photographer is to make a good/interesting photo of a bland ordinary subject.

- Leigh

[Vaughn]

A good photographer uses light to expose darkness.

[Heroique]

A good photographer uses light to expose darkness.

Darkness uses good light to expose a photographer.

(Sorry, last time, promise. Vaughn & I always have fun w/ this.)

;^)

[Richard Mahoney]

A painter friend has already asked to give it to all her students. But they're painters.

Thank you Bruce. A good number of years ago I spent some while trying to gain some sort of working proficiency in Classical Greek and then again, more recently, in Sanskrit. A willingness to engage in constant, patient and often tedious practice has always been a basic prerequisite for any kind of progress. On this necessity, I think school masters used to regularly repeat one form or other of this Anglican collect. Although it may be out of place in more recent forms of `education', where any sort of protracted and sustained practice in the Arts is perhaps seen as a precious waste of time, an indulgence, and possibly a luxury, the meaning of the collect, I believe, still holds up:

The Book of Common Prayer, The Second Sunday in Advent, The Collect:


Blessed Lord, who hast caused all Holy Scriptures to be written for our learning: Grant that we may in such wise hear them, read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest them, that by patience, and comfort of thy holy Word, we may embrace, and ever hold fast the blessed hope of everlasting life, which thou hast given us ...

And on this pious note I think I'll just take my self off ... :)


Best regards,

Richard

[Emil Schildt]

practice is good - practice is essential for all craftman ship.

I read the article, and I was struck by this sentence:

"Casals, and other
top musicians, might regularly practice six to nine hours a day. Then they perform."

Being a trained musician my self I can't help remembering a teacher telling me this:

"NO ONE can practice more than about 4 hours a day... If more, then they play, even if they think they practice".. and "If you use your mind right - practice right, you'll learn double in half the time"...

the story about the photographer that bought 1000 films is nice, but doesn't make sense to me..
A swedish photographer gave his students one film, and 36 assignments; that makes more sense to me.

It all depends on how you practice.

if the 1000film guy (sorry: forgot his name) was right, then all the digital photographers I know practice a lot!!

(which they don't - they just fire away, hoping..... they are "playing")

[mdm]

Practice+performance=no fun
play=fun
all fun=no progress
therefore gota put all 3 together, practice, performance and play
(assuming its your your life)
Its not my life. It may be yours.
Its play to me.

[Bruce Barlow]

Sorry, Gandolfi, the musicians I knew were doing far more than four hours a day, and studying with some of the finest teachers who, I'm sure, would not permit them sloppy practice habits. If Casals was doing all six Bach Suites as a warmup ("one a day is a meat grinder," says my four-Grammy cellist friend), then he could hardly be doing merely four hours a day. By all accounts, he wasn't.

Did you succeed, professionally, as a musician? Did you become the best? How do the best practice? And for how long? Did your teacher earn a living primarily as a performer or as a teacher? The folks I knew were studying with members of the Chicago Symphony, where the rent got paid by performing, and the teaching was secondary. They knew what it takes.

If I get "keepers" from my practice photography exercises, am I practicing or performing? Does it matter? If a musician performs for only his cat, is it performing or practicing performing? Does it matter? And isn't practicing performing a necessary part of practicing well?

If you learn twice as much in half the time, do you learn four times as much in the same time? What commitment is necessary to be the best that I can be? And why would I settle for less than being my best?

David Hurn's (a Magnum photographer of some repute) 1,000 roll story makes total sense. A photographer makes photographs. There was the story of the pottery class, where the teacher had two ways to do the class: make a lot of pots and pass, or make one great pot and pass. Students' choice. At the end of the class, those who made a lot of pots (who practiced...) made better pots than those who talked a lot beforehand about perfect pots, but then made just one.

One roll and 36 assignments won't make even a decent photographer. That's just bad teaching, especially for beginners.

Your comparison to digital clowns contradicts your own notion of good practice habits, has nothing to do with what I wrote, and implies that one of the top photographers in the world was an incompetent boob. The first insults you, the second me, and the third insults David Hurn. Clean sweep. You got us all.

Not to mention doing the math: Josef Koudelka, who could photograph rings around me on his worst day, said that he "had to expose a cassette a day just to keep the eye sharp." OK. A roll a day is 365 rolls a year before doing any serious photography. Two more rolls a day of "making pictures" takes one well over 1,000 rolls in a year, so at that level it makes even more sense, given that David Hurn and Josef Koudelka put bread on the table making photographs. They were (are) performers.

It would appear that you are precisely the kind of photographer I was writing about. I submit that one needs to practice well - there we agree, but also a lot. There we seem to disagree.

Most of the article talks about how to practice well, but you seem to criticize me by saying "It all depends on how you practice."

I might not be too out of line to suggest that you practice reading.

[Heroique]

Some clever clarifications, in the preceding posts.

I often wonder how many people here feel like they’re “practicing” to be on online, when they’re in the field setting up a shot.

That is, field work for some makes it easier to participate in this forum, and that might be what they mean by “practice.”

“Bye Honey, I’m heading out into the field for some practice!”

A sort of reversal to the meaning of the “P” word, as it applies to us.

[Emil Schildt]

"I might not be too out of line to suggest that you practice reading."

will respond later.
In my book it is out of line, but then again, I proberly can't read....

[Emil Schildt]

allright - I'll try...
I don't know how to put multiple quotes in a text so I'll just quote when needed.

Also, I want to state the obvious: I am not American... so my language skills are lacking, but I'll try my best (should proberly have practiced more...)

"Sorry, Gandolfi, the musicians I knew were doing far more than four hours a day, and studying with some of the finest teachers who, I'm sure, would not permit them sloppy practice habits. If Casals was doing all six Bach Suites as a warmup ("one a day is a meat grinder," says my four-Grammy cellist friend), then he could hardly be doing merely four hours a day. By all accounts, he wasn't."

First: did I write in any place that I agreed to the comments on practice time?

I have heard the stories of musicians practicing up to 10 hours a day many times. I've had fellow students that claimed the same.

I also have had a fantastic conversation with the then world famous cellist Paul Tortelier - he invited me to his hotel room, and talked about music in general but also about practicing. He actually told me that many musicians played to much - but practicing too little - that if they really consentrated them selves, they would'nt need all the hours they claimed to use...

More of the same was told to me by one of the very best flutist's when she lived (Manuela Wiesler).

I was generalizating in my first comment - shouldn't have.

I am sure some can practice longer than others, and I am also sure some instruments would be hard to practice on for those hours - and some wouldn't..

"Did you succeed, professionally, as a musician? Did you become the best? How do the best practice? And for how long? Did your teacher earn a living primarily as a performer or as a teacher? The folks I knew were studying with members of the Chicago Symphony, where the rent got paid by performing, and the teaching was secondary. They knew what it takes."

I don't see why my person comes into this (as musician), but since you ask.
No - but at my graduation I was jugded the most talented; most likely to suceed well by the jugdes.
My teacher was both performer and teacher - brilliant in both counts. He claimed he couldn't teach without performing and vica versa.

"If you learn twice as much in half the time, do you learn four times as much in the same time?"

that was his point...

"David Hurn's (a Magnum photographer of some repute) 1,000 roll story makes total sense. (snip)
One roll and 36 assignments won't make even a decent photographer. That's just bad teaching, especially for beginners."

But we're not talking about beginners, are we? I we were, then I would be interested in seeing how my students would react if I told them to go use 1000 rolls of film...

And I think there's a huge difference in practicing photography, depending on what type of photography you're interested in.
David Hurn and as you later mention Koudelka makes very different images than, say Sally Mann (?)

I urge my students - after a while (so not beginners) to try medium format photography - among other reasons, because that forces them to think - to take less exposures. It makes sense to me..

I once saw a story in TV from New York (I think) about a fashion photographer that used a whole day, and thousands of exposures to try to get a front page for Vouge....
(I thought he was a really bad photographer)
I also know a story about Horst P Horst that was asked to make some images for Vouge... He took two of one model - he only needed two... (Urban legend? I don't know)

"Your comparison to digital clowns contradicts your own notion of good practice habits, has nothing to do with what I wrote, and implies that one of the top photographers in the world was an incompetent boob. The first insults you, the second me, and the third insults David Hurn. Clean sweep. You got us all."

Why would you think that?
I am not saying he was an incompetent boob - I was trying (in vain) to say, that using all this film is not neccesarily a sign of a great photographer.
I am not out to get anybody.

"Not to mention doing the math: Josef Koudelka, who could photograph rings around me on his worst day, said that he "had to expose a cassette a day just to keep the eye sharp." OK. A roll a day is 365 rolls a year before doing any serious photography. Two more rolls a day of "making pictures" takes one well over 1,000 rolls in a year, so at that level it makes even more sense, given that David Hurn and Josef Koudelka put bread on the table making photographs. They were (are) performers."

Again - they were them. I respect Koudelka and Hurn a lot, but their way of making images (to keep the eye sharp) might not be for everybody (?)

"It would appear that you are precisely the kind of photographer I was writing about. I submit that one needs to practice well - there we agree, but also a lot. There we seem to disagree."

And it would appear that you have no clue on what kind of photographer I am.

The "a lot" part is hilarious... I am just suggesting that "a lot" can be something other than taking two rolls a day.

"I might not be too out of line to suggest that you practice reading."

you're proberly right - I'll go and buy 1000 books and start practice reading them...

[Dan Fromm]

Did your teacher earn a living primarily as a performer or as a teacher? The folks I knew were studying with members of the Chicago Symphony, where the rent got paid by performing, and the teaching was secondary. They knew what it takes.Bruce. this is just plain stupid.

When I was at University of Chicago I took lessons from Leonard Chaussow, then principal cellist of the Chicago Symphony. Later, when at Ohio State, I studied with Gordon Epperson.

There was no comparison between the two as teachers. Mr. Epperson was the most intelligent musician I've ever met and was by far the better teacher.

[Leigh]

How can anyone possibly generalize about a subject as diverse and personal as a practice regimen?

There are at least as many variations as there are individuals doing it.

- Leigh

[Jay DeFehr]

Far from making me angry, I simply disagree with the premise of your article, and with your assumptions about photographers, in general. You don't provide any support for your claims about what "we" do, or don't do, you just state your opinion as fact, and proceed. I suggest you're the one who is "seriously deluded".

You make the following claims:


We*expect*to*make*great*art*every*snap*of*the*shutter.

Who is "we"? How do you know?


We*do*little*or*nothing*to*practice*photography.


Again, are you speaking for yourself? I practice a lot, and always have.


For*photographers,*practicing*involves*either*working*with*equipment*to
become*more*familiar*and*comfortable*handling*it*(the*mechanics),*or*making
photographs*in*a*studied,*conscious,*intentional*way*(the*creativity).


The above is not true for me, or any serious photographer I know.


It*is*highly*beneficial*to*practice*the*mechanical*aspects*of*photography....

In what way? How do you know?


Composition?* * Best* practiced* by* making* lots* and* lots* of* pictures.*

Is there any evidence to support this claim?


However,* we’ll* really* only* improve* if* we* spend* time* examining* “practice* picture”* proofs,* and* deciding* why* they* succeed*or* fail.

I suppose the above depends on your definition of "really", but it's not been true for me.

Perhaps you should consider writing also worthy of practice?

[Gary Beasley]

Well said, I just wish I could follow you in doing all that practice. Too many irons in the fire right now.
Great article! It got a lot of people talking and considering it's merits, good or bad.

[Thom Bennett]

By coincidence, Rachmaninoff lived in the same apartment building as the Avedons, and Richard Avedon later recalled listening to the Russian musician practising hour after hour - "Maybe that's where I learned about discipline and what's beautiful about rigour, what's compelling about craft." This from the Telegraph obit of Avedon.

[mdm]

You succeeded in writing a very thought provokeing article. Thats fantastic and much more than all of us commenters have done.

[Marizu]

If a toddler wants to become a great writer, they will spend what appears to be a disproportionate amount of their time learning how to read before are able to write.
If their reading never progresses beyond the level of a tabloid newspaper then I would suspect that their writing would be unlikely to.

If we want to become better photographers, should we not spend a lot of time looking at and studying great art in order to understand what is great about it? That way, we can apply similar principles (not necessarily copy) to our own practice.

I doubt that blowing a roll of film a day will not make ME produce significantly better photographs. Thoughtfully contemplating an artwork that I admire, or even considering the reasons why I do not particularly admire one, may help to make my next photograph better.

Practice is only one element of developing ones abilities. I do agree that it is an important one, though.

[Bruce Barlow]

Bruce. this is just plain stupid.

When I was at University of Chicago I took lessons from Leonard Chaussow, then principal cellist of the Chicago Symphony. Later, when at Ohio State, I studied with Gordon Epperson.

There was no comparison between the two as teachers. Mr. Epperson was the most intelligent musician I've ever met and was by far the better teacher.

Sorry, Dan, not stupid at all. I wasn't discussing quality of teaching, I was discussing what performers understand that it takes to be successful as performers. Because they've done it. Many (but not all) teachers haven't done it, and so may not understand what it takes, certainly at the pure gut level. That's all.

Cheers!

[Brian Ellis]

practice is good - practice is essential for all craftman ship.

I read the article, and I was struck by this sentence:

"Casals, and other
top musicians, might regularly practice six to nine hours a day. Then they perform."

Being a trained musician my self I can't help remembering a teacher telling me this:

"NO ONE can practice more than about 4 hours a day... If more, then they play, even if they think they practice".. and "If you use your mind right - practice right, you'll learn double in half the time"...

the story about the photographer that bought 1000 films is nice, but doesn't make sense to me..
A swedish photographer gave his students one film, and 36 assignments; that makes more sense to me.

It all depends on how you practice.

if the 1000film guy (sorry: forgot his name) was right, then all the digital photographers I know practice a lot!!

(which they don't - they just fire away, hoping..... they are "playing")

Actually you don't know any photographers who use digital equipment. Anyone who just fires away, hoping isn't a photographer. You should get around more and try to meet some photographers.

[Robert Hughes]

Anyone who just fires away, hoping isn't a photographer.
I hate all generalists - they should all be killed. :rolleyes:

[Bruce Barlow]

Hi, Jay, glad to hear from you.

"Who is "we"? How do you know?"

Because I read forums like this one and APUG. Because Richard Ritter and I have workshop students. Because I read what people blog and write. And in all of that, few that I see ever mention disciplined practice. Interestingly, the better photographers I know talk about it, and Richard Ritter is amazing. He really does it, every day. But my artist and musician friends talk about practice all the time. Then I struggle to see the difference between them and photographers. So I try to think that through. It brings me to a conclusion that many photographers don't understand the idea of structured, disciplined practice as a means of improving their images. Silly me. Artists and musicians seem to understand it. But it must not be the same for photographers. Hell, anybody can be a photographer, or so I'm told.

"Again, are you speaking for yourself? I practice a lot, and always have."

I certainly don't practice enough. Life has a way of getting in the way of many things I'd like to do more of. Most workshop students and photographers I talk to don't follow any practice regimen of any kind. Understanding that I don't practice enough, I've tried to think through how to practice well.

"The above is not true for me, or any serious photographer I know."

I wish I were as gifted as you clearly think you are. And I'm puzzled, because you didn't enlighten us with your wisdom in any constructive sense - if you're not practicing the mechanics or the creativity of image-making, what are you practicing when it comes to photography? It's not clear to me what's left. How do other "serious photographers" practice?

"In what way? How do you know?"

Because I've done it, and found benefit. Because we've had workshop students do it, and they've said that they found benefit. Because people write me after reading my book and tell me how valuable the practice exercises are.

"Is there any evidence to support this claim?"

My own experience. The experience of many photographers who are far better than I am, who have repeatedly coached me that it's ridiculous to think that one will become a fine photographer without making a lot of images. Read Ted Orland. Read David Bayles. Read Bill Jay. Most, but certainly not all, of the feedback I have gotten in this thread can be offered as evidence. If the aforementioned are all wrong, at least I'm in good company. And if I am wrong, hand me a cello. I've never played one, but I'm clearly ready for Carnegie Hall. You're clearly ready for a one-man show at the Met.

"I suppose the above depends on your definition of "really", but it's not been true for me."

We should all bow to your obvious intrinsic greatness. Many of us unfortunates cannot conjure world-shaking images without doing a lot of work. I wonder why Steiglitz, when people would approach him to teach them, would tell them to go make 3,000 images and then come back, and he would decide whether they were worth teaching? Why not only one or two? Steiglitz obviously didn't know what he was talking about, and so is unworthy of respect.

"Perhaps you should consider writing also worthy of practice?[/QUOTE]"

It didn't occur to you that this was an example of just that?

I wrote an article describing my ideas for systematic practice designed for mere mortals to improve their photography, and offered it, for free, to those whom I thought might benefit from some of the ideas. Practical ideas that many have found worthwhile, and which have helped me improve faster than I would have were I more willy-nilly in my approach. No, I have no evidence for "faster," other than it feels that way, which is good enough for me.

You restore my faith in the notion that no good deed goes unpunished. I was worried there, for a while.

[lilmsmaggie]

I see absolutely nothing offending or irritating about practicing. Makes perfect sense.
I would even go as far as saying that some photographers practice, without actually referring or considering it as "practice."

We recently had a change of management at the executive level at my work. The new chief executive, who wasn't into attending a lot of meetings, addressed his management team with a statement similar to this:

"Research has shown that it takes 10,000 hours of doing something to become an expert at it. Since most of you have undoubtedly attended many, many meetings, you're all experts. So how should we approach meetings in this organization?"

If you query "Expert" in Wikipedia, you'll come across the following statement:

"Many accounts of the development of expertise emphasize that it comes about through long periods of deliberate practice. In many domains of expertise estimates of 10 years experience or 10,000 hours deliberate practice are common ..."

So, let's all go out and burn some film :D

[Leigh]

Thoughtfully contemplating an artwork that I admire, or even considering the reasons why I do not particularly admire one, may help to make my next photograph better.
I used to present a classroom exercise to the students that proved quote beneficial...

Viewing a particular photo (not a studio shot), I would ask them to describe the surroundings... the time of day, temperature, other people, traffic, noise, birds, whatever they think might define the environment of the photograph.

Then I asked them how they would "see" the photo amidst all of that distraction, i.e. realize that there was something interesting to shoot.

This provoked some very interesting discussions.

- Leigh

[Jack Dahlgren]

Practice is only useful to the point where you stop learning/growing and only when it is in a direction that you want to go.

A writer could practice writing the alphabet or copying sonnets for the proverbial 10K hours, but after a while the value of that practice becomes very low or even retards progress by taking the time away from more effective sorts of practice.

Some of those other forms of practice as pointed out are:
Study of other works - great writers quite often start as great readers.
Imagination - imagination is at the root of a number of discoveries even in what are typically called the "hard sciences"
Play - Play is an exploratory type of practice

While very structured practice is useful when developing skills which are complex, lengthy and detailed (like film processing) many of the other forms of practice are useful for developing creativity and artistic vision. Some of them don't even require touching a camera.

My point is that practice regimens may be completely different across the population of photographers. For example I need no more practice in setting up a tripod or reading a light meter. I already know how and I'm not ready to forget those things yet. My photography will get better if I think more about what makes a good photograph and then trying to put those thoughts into action. Burning film at whatever presents itself will get me nowhere.

-Jack

[Jay DeFehr]

Hello Bruce,

I wonder why my criticism of your writing equates, in your mind, to my claiming artistic superiority? I was simply pointing out where you've offered opinion and anecdote as fact, and made sweeping generalizations and assumptions about photographers without support of any kind. This is just poor writing, and evidence you haven't thoroughly considered your topic. Some of your claims are overly general, others incomplete, and still others simply ludicrous, and my saying so shouldn't imply to any rational person that I think myself superior as a photographer or artist to those you cite.

I too read this and many other forums, speak to other photographers, and even some who consider me knowledgeable, but don't come to the conclusions you have about the expectations of other photographers about the results of every click of their shutter. If your conclusion is to be preferred, or even respected, you should support it somehow. The fact that The blogs you read seldom mention practice in specific terms is hardly evidence that photographers "...expect to make great art every snap of the shutter". Your claim is a convenient attribution for supporting your larger claim that photographers don't practice, but photographers do practice. The musicians and other artists you cite practice by isolating a part of their craft, and experimenting with variations, or by repetition. While photography differs substantially from performing arts, photographers do practice in ways logical for our medium. Like your wife, we test our materials, and experiment with variations, and like musicians, we repeat segments of our process, or our entire process, even when we have no expectation of "art", great or otherwise. Why do we process film and print negatives we know are flawed before we remove them from our holders? Out of curiosity, for the opportunity to learn from our mistakes, or to put it another way- for practice. I don't think any medium has anything on photography for constant testing, experimentation, and practice, but photography is unique in its capacity for capturing a moment in time, which has obvious implications for our practicing. I find your insistence on a separation of practice and "performance" to be antithetical to the unique characteristics of the photographic medium, which might offer a better explanation for the differences in the ways photographers practice relative to artists who work in other media, than your claim that photographers are either ignorant, misguided, or just lazy. Developing skills and maturing as an artist in any medium requires practice appropriate to the medium, a comprehensive study of the medium and its history, and a personal point of view. I don't think this is a revelation, and I don't think your article clarifies the issues or offers a productive methodology as much as it muddies the waters and introduces artificial distinctions where none need exist.

My Dad used to say, "For the man with a hammer, every problem is a nail". Your article seems to say, "For a man who calls himself Teacher, everyone else is a student". Unfortunately, your lesson is ill-conceived and poorly presented. perhaps you would be better served to ask, how photographers practice differently than other artists, and why, rather than to pronounce that photographers don't practice, and further, don't feel we need to, and then accuse me of claiming superiority! Clearly you are well aware that the tone of your article is condescending, and you fully expected to make your readers angry, as evidenced by your disclaimer, but you'll have to write a lot better to make me angry.

[Bruce Barlow]

Wow, Jay, so much backpedaling from you last post, and not a single constructive answer to anything I asked you.

Typical, when I read your history here.

You are not worth my time.

[Jay DeFehr]

Backpedalling? What are you reading? My history here? Do you mean that I occasionally disagree with other members? How is that different from your history here? The only question you asked me was:



if you're not practicing the mechanics or the creativity of image-making, what are you practicing when it comes to photography? It's not clear to me what's left. How do other "serious photographers" practice?

I addressed these questions directly by describing the kinds of things most photographers do, such as testing materials (how many posts do you think there are here on the topics of film and paper testing?), experimenting with various processes and techniques, and practicing the photographic process, in general, and by suggesting some ways in which the photographic medium differs from performing arts, and other media. Too much for you, I suppose. I can't say I'm surprised.

[Bruce Barlow]

Film and paper testing involves mechanical aspects, and evaluating them sometimes requires creative judgement. Still searching for what's beyond those two categories.

Did I say that photographic practice and practice in other art forms were the same? Only in that both should follow some discipline, and in so doing will yield benefit.

But you go from saying that you and all the serious photographers you know don't practice (in the first post), to describing all the practice that you apparently do (in the second post).

Nice to see you so fully come around to my way of thinking. Thank you.

[Bill_1856]

I never did find the "old guys" post.

[Steve Smith]

I am not American... so my language skills are lacking

It's usually the other way round!


Steve.

[Scott Walker]

Nothing wrong with practicing and I don't think that anyone at the top of their game regardless of medium can say they got there without practice. Practice comes in different forms for each of us and for each different medium. From what I get out of your article you seem to make generalizations about photographers that you would likely not be able to back up.


The following quote from your article did manage to make me laugh though.


Ted Orland and David Bayles, in their highly‑recommended book Art and Fear say that creativity and artistic excellence come more from doing art than from native talent. The more you do, the better you get. Better to work hard than be gifted.

Don't know if these are your words or the words of the authors of the book, but wow! What a stupid statement. Without the naturally talented and truly gifted, art would not progress and artists would only ever regurgitate what has already been done.

I got to that paragraph half way through your article and came to a predetermined conclusion that the whole article was trash so I read it again this morning and skipped over that part and found the article to be far more readable.

[Brian Ellis]

It's usually the other way round!


Steve.

That's odd. When America saved England from being a German speaking country I don't recall the English having any trouble with American language skills.

[Emil Schildt]

That's odd. When America saved England from being a German speaking country I don't recall the English having any trouble with American language skills.

I'm not English either....:rolleyes:

[Robert Hughes]

That's odd. When America saved England from being a German speaking country I don't recall the English having any trouble with American language skills.
By your logic we should all be speaking Russian right now.

[John Voss]

As a cellist, I know what long hours of practice mean to me. It's thinking technically and musically at the same time. The technique is the means to actuate expression, and it takes very deliberate control of bow and fingers to accomplish what one decides to do creatively. It's rarely mindless because one must listen critically and attentively to what one is doing and adjust technically as necessary. I agree with Eugene that one cello suite, practiced in that way, is quite exhausting and enough of Bach for one day.

With my photographs the practice involves continuing to examine them and, over time, reevaluating their success or lack thereof. I have no qualms about reprinting a negative with significant changes over time if I believe the idea was a good one, and just needs to be better realized. It's an evolution that is similar to the way one considers a piece of music and makes new discoveries with continued examination.

The experience gained informs new photographs, and new music as well.

[ki6mf]

From Paul Taylor, founder and artistic director of the Paul Taylor Dance Company on inspiration:

“I don't believe in it. People think some muse comes down and strikes. Well, making a dance is just plain work like anything else. The inspiration is the deadline.”

Work at the craft and develop a mindset to keep improveing. This applies to photography as much as any other art form.

[Jay DeFehr]

Bruce,

It seems you read no better than you write. I never wrote that I don't practice, I simply objected to the absolute either/ or terms of your characterization of what practice is for photographers. Practice need not be limited to either mechanical aspects, or artistic ones; there's a whole world of technical, though not particularly mechanical, or artistic aspects of the photographic process, which also can be mastered with practice. We agree that practice is important, but that's the limit of our agreement. I disagree with your premise that photographers don't feel the need to practice, and with your other broad generalizations and assumptions about photographers, and with your claims about how photographers should and do practice. That's a lot of disagreement. You were never interested in an honest discussion, but only in presenting your poorly considered "insights" about how practicing photography should be more like practicing cello, or piano, or painting, even if your "insights" are completely devoid of any consideration of the differences in these varied media. You seem to share a common fallacy that photographers might be more artistic if they more closely mimicked the practices of arts with older traditions. You simply couldn't be more wrong.

[John Voss]

One of the reasons I post here so rarely is that I simply can't stand the bickering that seems to arise so often. When is the last time anyone witnessed somebody actually change their mind, or apologize and recant. Who cares if you're disagreed with? It's all so petty and stupid. And please, if you don't agree with me, say so happily. I will absolutely let it ride. I really don't give a rat's rump, because I know you don't either.

Intelligent, civil conversations do not proceed as this one has for too large a part.

[Armin Seeholzer]

I also studied Music in the past not really succesfull, started much to late to really workout every day;--)))
But I know quite a few stars in the music business which did practice every day during there studys around 7-8 hours a day, till they where the best on the instruments!
By name Branimir Slokar Trombone
Lang Lang Piano
Maurice André Trumpet
and many more of course!
There I know from a written interview with Maurice André he got asked have you been more talented then others?
He sayed no not really I think 95% is and has always be hard work and only 5% is talent. But I tell you in times at the music conservatorium in Paris when my study friends talked about talent etc. I just went home for exercising on my trumpet!

To exercise is and will never be a bad idea!

My two cts. Armin

[Jay DeFehr]

John,

I do apologize, and recant, if I feel I've unintentionally offended someone or have crossed a line of civility (and I've done so recently). I don't apologize every time I disagree with someone, or every time I offend someone, or I'd do little else. Some people are easily offended, but I assume someone who posts a thread titled, "Another article to irritate people", is thicker-skinned than most, and can take what he doesn't mind dishing out.

As for my original criticism of the thread's premise, it seems to be borne out by the posters here, all of whom do feel the need to practice, by whatever method they choose. It's a silly, insubstantial article, in my opinion, but worse, it's offensive to photographers in its claims about our discipline and expectations. Others who feel compelled to praise the article, or its author must do so with the belief they are not the photographers characterized in the article, but exceptions, like the author himself. At best, the author is preaching to the choir, but more to the point, he misses his own by creating a fictional photographer audience to persuade, and by failing to think through the very issues he pretends to have pondered.

[Kimberly Anderson]

Bruce,

I'd like to credit you and re-print this on the blog I am using for my photography classes I'm teaching this summer.

Photo at UVU, Summer 2011 (http://uvu1050s2011.blogspot.com/)

[Bruce Barlow]

Michael - please feel free to use as you choose. Glad you found it worthwhile.

[Kimberly Anderson]

Thank you.

On Practicing... (http://uvu1050s2011.blogspot.com/2011/06/practicing-photography-bruce-barlow.html)

[lilmsmaggie]

My photography will get better if I think more about what makes a good photograph and then trying to put those thoughts into action. Burning film at whatever presents itself will get me nowhere.

-Jack

Then in essence, you are practicing to improve your photographic vision. You are not burning film at whatever presents itself, and neither was I implying that one aimlessly release the shutter.

I think that it is unfortunate that instead of acknowledging the positive aspects of a discussion, some would rather invalidate, find fault, take exception or poke holes.

The propensity to bicker and argue only turns off those who we may wish to attract to our art form and in some cases may lead to forming negative impressions of those we seek to learn from or seek advice.

As a newbie to LF and a member of this forum for over two years, I have come to accept that there is a small population of forum participants that are going to accentuate the negative no matter what and that we should just let them have their say without engaging in a tit for tat.

[kevin4x5]

From a Fred Picker newsletter but not written by Fred Picker

"A corollary of this point is that you cannot be a photography by aspiring to be one, or by learning everything there is to be known about photography. Photographers produce photographs. And many of them. like every other skill, photography is learned by continuous and dedicated practice"

[jp]

Bruce, in addition to writing a nice article based partly on person experience, you have developed a good secret simple litmus test for identifying those who like to argue.

You'd have 70 pages instead of 7 if the article were about politics, morality, or theology.

[theBDT]

Gee, I'd have thought I'd count myself among those "who like to argue." Aside from finding it a bit wordy, I actually appreciated the essay. :) I'm all for treating photography like the real and rigorous visual art that it is...

[Kirk Gittings]

You'd have 70 pages instead of 7 if the article were about politics, morality, or theology.

Actually you'd have 0 pages as the whole thread would be deleted.

[Merg Ross]

One of the reasons I post here so rarely is that I simply can't stand the bickering that seems to arise so often. When is the last time anyone witnessed somebody actually change their mind, or apologize and recant. Who cares if you're disagreed with? It's all so petty and stupid.

Hi John, nice to hear from you again.

Agreed, this forum has recently been hijacked by those who prefer analysis to production. I find myself straying as a contributor, as ego seems to have replaced civil conversation.

Bruce, thanks for your current and past contributions to the forum and may your passion for making photographs continue.

[mdm]

Yes, I agree. The same people, who never contribute a picture, are always right and just go on ad infinitum. More pictures please, even practice ones.

[Jack Dahlgren]

Then in essence, you are practicing to improve your photographic vision. You are not burning film at whatever presents itself, and neither was I implying that one aimlessly release the shutter.

I think that it is unfortunate that instead of acknowledging the positive aspects of a discussion, some would rather invalidate, find fault, take exception or poke holes.

The propensity to bicker and argue only turns off those who we may wish to attract to our art form and in some cases may lead to forming negative impressions of those we seek to learn from or seek advice.

As a newbie to LF and a member of this forum for over two years, I have come to accept that there is a small population of forum participants that are going to accentuate the negative no matter what and that we should just let them have their say without engaging in a tit for tat.

I guess I'm wondering why your comment about invalidation, bickering etc. appears to be aimed at me. I thought my comments were fairly balanced. The fact that I used the word burn as you did a few posts above me was purely coincidental. I thin there are many occasions where people mis-interpret ordinary and innocent comments as negative or even offensive. It is good to give people the benefit of the doubt.

[David Woods]

More pictures please, even practice ones.

+1

[Scott Walker]

The name of this thread sort of made me think that the author was looking for a response of some sort. I gave mine, it was an honest response, and I read the article twice, I imagine some have read it even more.

One more thing.....Since when did having the ability to post digital images of your LF negatives mean you should be the only one to have the right to voice your opinion. I enjoy sharing some of my images here on the forums, but when it takes a couple of hours in photoshop just to make the scanned print look somewhat like the real thing, it is tough to justify the time if you have no other use for a digital copy of your image.

[lilmsmaggie]

I guess I'm wondering why your comment about invalidation, bickering etc. appears to be aimed at me. I thought my comments were fairly balanced. The fact that I used the word burn as you did a few posts above me was purely coincidental. I thin there are many occasions where people mis-interpret ordinary and innocent comments as negative or even offensive. It is good to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry Jack. I wasn't taking aim at you. Just expedient for me to make a single post rather than many :D

[Armyphotog]

I thought the article was interesting and thought provoking. I also see the line between photography as ART and photography as reflecting life. As an old news photographer, to me candid photography and certainly not posed, is the way I was taught and naturally, the way I like to shoot. To each his own. What's to be upset about? As such, it's kind of hard to "pratice" that. It's more about keeping a sharp eye, than camera technique.

[Jim collum]

i've found that an excellent use for a digital camera is for that 'practice' of seeing. I take dozens of images each day, with a variety of cameras. but mostly digital.. they offer that immediacy that assists with the practice. Very good article. Ted's and David's work is also an excellent read in the matter. 99.9% of what at least i do is 'practice.. whether it be technical or aesthetic. (also find it very meditative). Thanks for the reminder!

[dperez]

I agree with Leigh and Jay DeFehr on this. The article is a little too generalized.

As a former national coach for an Olympic shooting sport, I can say with confidence that there are several roads that lead to success. What was important for me as a coach was to focus on general commonalities--that is, the elements that the vast majority of regimens have in common. How one acheives their goals is not as important, and there is plenty of room for different approaches and variations, as long as the fundamental elements are not compromised.

The problem with trying to come up with generalized practice routines for photographers is that success in photography is much less finite. What one may think of as beautiful may be detested by others. What is considerd a successful image by a photographer, may be deemed a failure by viewers (which I'm sure those that have worked with editors can surely attest to). One regimen may work for a few, but may lead to disaster for others. I think it is far more difficult in the arts to come up with generalizations that work. I can't really think of any commonality that would cut across all regimens, disciplines, and genres of photography. Even something as simple as repetition may not be adequate.

-DP


How can anyone possibly generalize about a subject as diverse and personal as a practice regimen?

There are at least as many variations as there are individuals doing it.

- Leigh