"The Holy Grail of Pinkham lenses" What is your Holy Grail of soft focus Lens

[akfreak]

Prototype Pinkham & Smith Soft Focus Lens. Is the Pinkham the holy grail of glass? If not what is your Holy grail of soft focus lenses, and why.

Link to (http://cgi.ebay.com/Prototype-Pinkham-Smith-Soft-Focus-Camera-Lens-/150620148385?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2311a912a1#ht_500wt_1156) the " Holy Grail of Pinkham lenses"

I am not trying to promote a sale of someones gear and I dont feel like screen grabbing all of the images of the listing so I posted the link.

First off why is this lens so valuable? Are they that good? Or are they just hard to find?

I am sure some of you here own a Pinkham lens, (eddie maybe a closet full) are they your best lens. Please can some of you share your personal experiences with a Pinkham soft focus.

I goggled it, I read some stuff, I just want to hear from some members here their thoughts and feelings

[Geoffrey_5995]

Just thought I should point out that this is the same lens that I purchased as a buy it now on eBay back on April 23rd for $350. The seller never sent it to me and tried to extort $3000 from me to send the lens once he was alerted that the lens was worth much more than the buy it now price, even though it was incomplete and in terrible condition. In my assessment He was mis-informed about value and now he is quite greedy. He now wants $4500 buy it now, opening bid $1900. But...the original buy it now was $6500 that he lowered to $4500 after it was listed for only a few minutes. I guess he got impatient when no one snatched it up for $6500! Value on Pinkhams is difficult to gauge but this lens with the one glass and chip, missing the second glass could be valued at $1000 as a parts lens in my opinion. When he refused to send it I offered him $1500 for it but he wanted $3000. I declined because I felt he was taking advantage, and after all, I already bought it. Since I have been collecting and studying Pinkham & Smith lenses for many years, of course I wanted this lens even though it was not complete, but certainly not for $3000 and certainly since I already bought it for $350. So this is the history of this lens and perhaps I'll end up with it after all with eBay's help but I'm not hopeful. It has been reported to eBay the first time it was listed because he didn't send it and I just reported it again as a fraudulent listing. This lens is a doublet as is indicated by the engraving on the barrel but the original listing of April 22nd only describes one glass with a chip. I did contact the seller to see if he had the other cell but he told me that there was no other cell and this is the way he bought it. The new listing says "the large element was with this lens stored in a box for years, I recently checked to see if it would fit and it seems to." Clearly he came to the conclusion, with much information provided by me, that this lens is far more valuable with two elements and not with the one that he found it with and how he originally sold it for and would not ship. Clearly the second cell, he is claiming came with this lens, is not original and not Pinkham and Smith. I can't tell anyone not to bid on this lens and I don't know what will happen once eBay investigates but anyone interested in this lens should know that at least one of the cells is not original and that this seller is fraudulent. There are several posts about this lens in this section of the forum that I recommend any LF forum member read if they are interested in this lens. Geoffrey

[akfreak]

What are the chances of me picking this lens to query. That seller sounds like a complete Turd. Since you paid him you know his name and email. It is in your Paypal records. I would post as much information here or start a new thread about him. What a POS, I have had dealings with Liar thieves, like this before. Seems like there is a lot of profit to be had just by being educated about old lenses.

Seriously this stuff can be had for penny's in some cases and worth mega bucks. I guess this is why this hobby/ profession is so cloak and dagger but mainly cut throat.

I wonder how he became aware about the lens value after he sold it to you instead of before. I hope he gets exactly what he deserves. He should have to sell the lens to you for the $350. I remember somewhere in Ebay TOS that when you bid it is a contract!

How did this punk, weasel out of selling you this lens? I was shocked at the condition of the lens, separation is one thing but a huge chip is another. You say it had only a single element, now he is offering two elements. I wonder if he found some literature on the lens and bought some random element from Surplus Shed or something.

If he found a rear element, am surprised he didn't replace front and back based on the shyster behavior he exhibited.

I should pull his chain a little and see if he will deal outside of ebay, and then turn him in. I could make a new fake ebay account, just to give him a taste of what it feels like to get screwed around. Karma, I hope he faces it soon!

[eddie]

Geoff. Did you leave negative feed back saying he does not ship item etc etc. That may have more of an impact to potetial buyers.

[eddie]

Pinkhams are the best. I only have a couple but I was able to shoot a few different series lately. Wonderful lenses.

Why will have to wait for another day or another person. Typing on this i phone is too painful!

Ps. I would not buy the above lens. Too suspect for me. There is a nice 14 inch for sale on the bay. Buy that one!

[akfreak]

Also if you paid him for the lens, how come you weren't able to leave him negative feedback, he has 100% positive?

He "the large element was with this lens stored in a box for years, I recently checked to see if it would fit and it seems to."

Wow based on what you said he listed it the first time with a single element! Now he has two, what a Liar!

[akfreak]

Pinkhams are the best. I only have a couple but I was able to shoot a few different series lately. Wonderful lenses.

Why will have to wait for another day or another person. Typing on this i phone is too painful!

Ps. I would not buy the above lens. Too suspect for me. There is a nice 14 inch for sale on the bay. Buy that one!

I should buy the Pinkham 14" Bi that starts at 3,000 or the 17" real one with the broken aperture for $6,000 yeah right.

Eddie what model do you have? You have multiple 6,000 lens but can only afford an Iphone to stay connected, lol. A Color Nook, or hell a kindle 3G would be way easier to stay connected and easy to type on compared to an Iphone. Hell you should be rocking the Ipad, and no I am not buying.

You are the big baller, got all the best gear. Even the Holy grail x2. "only have a couple" this is funny! No doubt in my mind you have the glass, you probably gave 5 bucks each, found them in a trash bin or a box full of tool's in some random antique shop. Sell one of those babys and buy a net book and stop bitching about the Iphone.

[eddie]

Just like all u camea and lens buyers. I want it all for cheap. That is the best AND weighs nothing, fits in my pocket, and does not need a tripod.

YOu keep talking about buying better stuff. Why not send me one?

You asked about the holy grail. I just complained about the typing. I never said it dis not work......only I am not willing to give you the full details cause if it....too bad for u. Buy me an i pad II and I promise to type u longer answers!

Ps. Search this forum and u will see that e bat seller stopped by here.....just for the info and then left. Has not been back since may 28. Figures!

[jb7]

... and I just reported it again as a fraudulent listing. This lens is a doublet ... Geoffrey


Fraudulent listings on ebay are quite common-

I've seen triplets listed as Petzvals, for example-
since Petzvals sell at a premium, unsuspecting and uneducated buyers might be tempted into a bidding war, to the benefit of the cynical and unscrupulous seller, who styles himself as an authority on the subject.

I'd say you should probably take care out there, it's a minefield...


joseph

[goamules]

deleted...

[Geoffrey_5995]

Geoff. Did you leave negative feed back saying he does not ship item etc etc. That may have more of an impact to potetial buyers.

Eddie, Stupid me. I did try to leave Neg feedback but the default is Positive. Neg has to be selected. I typed in that he is a thief but forgot to select Neg feedback and Pos was left. This was the only time in my ten year history that I was going to leave Neg feedback and believe me that I have dealt with some real losers on eBay but this guy definitely takes the cake. What is most disturbing about this guy is how easily he lies. When he didn't send the lens he told me to cancel the transaction and that he would immediately relist it with the $350 buy it now so I can buy it again, saying the original description was wrong and he didn't want to break eBay rules. He then said that he needed to relist it so he wouldn't pay taxes twice on the item. He was just trying to get out of the deal so I wouldn't eave neg feedback. Stupid, Stupid me for not paying enough attention to select the neg feedback button. This is the feedback left. "SELLS BUY NOW CANCELS AUCTION WANTS MORE MONEY, EXTORTION! AVOID SELLER SCAMMER!" And about eBay. I reported him and told them that this is a relist from a lens he sold me already but it is still posted. They haven't removed it yet and don't know if they will. It could easily be snatched up and sold again and gone. So much for eBay transactions be legally binding. Geoffrey

[Geoffrey_5995]

What are the chances of me picking this lens to query. That seller sounds like a complete Turd. Since you paid him you know his name and email. It is in your Paypal records. I would post as much information here or start a new thread about him. What a POS, I have had dealings with Liar thieves, like this before. Seems like there is a lot of profit to be had just by being educated about old lenses.

Seriously this stuff can be had for penny's in some cases and worth mega bucks. I guess this is why this hobby/ profession is so cloak and dagger but mainly cut throat.

I wonder how he became aware about the lens value after he sold it to you instead of before. I hope he gets exactly what he deserves. He should have to sell the lens to you for the $350. I remember somewhere in Ebay TOS that when you bid it is a contract!

How did this punk, weasel out of selling you this lens? I was shocked at the condition of the lens, separation is one thing but a huge chip is another. You say it had only a single element, now he is offering two elements. I wonder if he found some literature on the lens and bought some random element from Surplus Shed or something.

If he found a rear element, am surprised he didn't replace front and back based on the shyster behavior he exhibited.

I should pull his chain a little and see if he will deal outside of ebay, and then turn him in. I could make a new fake ebay account, just to give him a taste of what it feels like to get screwed around. Karma, I hope he faces it soon!


I don't know if buying it to jerk his chain will help. According to the eBay rep I talked to this will be investigated and they might pull him from doing business on eBay but I'm not hopeful because whenever I've had problems with eBay they always looked out for eBay's interests first. More later. G

[Geoffrey_5995]

BTW, I did try buying it again but the A**Hole blocked me from bidding.

[kev curry]

Shouldn't this guy be brought to the attention of as many photogs as possible... eg APUG etc etc?

[Geoffrey_5995]

Shouldn't this guy be brought to the attention of as many photogs as possible... eg APUG etc etc?This should be brought to the attention on the other foeums. I know that he was fishing for info on APUG as well. I don't have an account with APUG but perhaps it's time I join.

BTW, he just lowered his buy it now price to $3999, It started at $6500, then down to $4500, now $3999.

[Emil Schildt]

Pinkhams are the best. I only have a couple but I was able to shoot a few different series lately. Wonderful lenses.


"The best"?
how?

SO many wonderful lenses out there.. Isn't it "just" different?

I havn't tried one - I proberly never will (too expensive), but I think if someone gave me the choise to pick one out of let's say three lenses I don't know:

P&S (any of them) - Karl Struss - or a Perscheid, I would be in doubt, but would proberly go for the Perscheid... (if money wasn't an offer and I wasn't going to sell it again)...

don't really know why - I mostly LOVe the name!! and have seen awesome results from it..

Holy grail of SF lenses?
I have a few I would love to own/try.. My personal favourite these days is proberly a big Ilex Paragon 375mm... Great lens!

But I love my Cookes - plasticca and kronarette too.. Too many to try..

[eddie]

Emil

I hear ya! Just had to pick one. I did. I love the others you listed. My cookes are at the top. Maybe next holy grail thread I will name them....or a kalosat.....:)

I have a 300 mm persheid for ya.... BWAH HA HA HA!

[goamules]

I'm anxious to try the Struss I have, I looked for one for 4 years....

[Armin Seeholzer]

There are so many, holy grails out there for example the Universal Heliar which was the only lens with the japanese Kaiser wanted to get a Portrait with it! No other lenses where acepted. The Imagons are also more in use in the past 50 years then any other SF lens!
Its more the photog behind the lens which make it sing then anything else!

Cheers Armin

[Brian Ellis]

"When he didn't send the lens he told me to cancel the transaction and that he would immediately relist it with the $350 buy it now so I can buy it again, saying the original description was wrong and he didn't want to break eBay rules."

That's wonderful! He doesn't want to break ebay's rules. Did you tell him about the rule that says sellers are supposed to ship items that people buy and pay for?

[Emil Schildt]

I have a 300 mm persheid for ya.... BWAH HA HA HA!

:eek:

dare I ask?

[Jim Galli]

Might be fun for 3 or 4 of us to bid that Pinkham up to $1,500,000 or so :D:D What the guy deserves.

I don't bother with Holy Grails of Silver Bullets. I have a lot of respect for all of the classic soft focus designs, and oddly I often default to $30 lenses for my soft images even though I own a bunch of the holy moly ones.

[Mark Sawyer]

I don't bother with Holy Grails of Silver Bullets. I have a lot of respect for all of the classic soft focus designs, and oddly I often default to $30 lenses for my soft images even though I own a bunch of the holy moly ones.

Agreed. Holy Grails aren't necessarily every-day beer-drinking glasses, but once in a while, when you're feeling divinely inspired, it's nice to pull out a sacred relic... :)

[Geoffrey_5995]

"When he didn't send the lens he told me to cancel the transaction and that he would immediately relist it with the $350 buy it now so I can buy it again, saying the original description was wrong and he didn't want to break eBay rules."

That's wonderful! He doesn't want to break ebay's rules. Did you tell him about the rule that says sellers are supposed to ship items that people buy and pay for?

He actually fed me two stories when he wouldn't send the lens. The first was that he wanted to change the description to be in compliance with eBay rules. The second reason was that he needed me to cancel the transaction so he could relist it so he wouldn't need to pay taxes on it twice. Every time i dealt with him it was one lie after another. I said I still wanted the lens and went as high as $1500 but wouldn't send it to me for less than $3000, which is an outrageous amount for a parts lens that will never be complete because it was missing the front cell. In any case I didn't agree to cancel the transaction and was told by an eBay rep that this would count against him. Well, it gets better because I reported him again after seeing the lens listed on eBay, and got different stories from several eBay reps. I was certain that eBay would remove the auction this time but was first told it would need to be investigated, then that it would be removed, the seller would get a strike, and one rep even told me that there was no reason to remove it and that if eBay removed this seller from the site for these bad practices this would be a dis-service to other potential eBay buyers, true story. My last contact with ebay was with a supervisor who finally told me that there was no report originally opened for not sending the item because he refunded the money so this guy got away scott free. I said "isn't the transaction legally binding per eBay rule and the law?" He said I could only take legal action outside of eBay and that eBay would not take any action. I asked him why he was able to resell the item on ebay when I already bought it and he wouldn't address this issue. And buyer protection with this supervisor was a non-starter. This experience left me even more cynical and disparaged about eBay than I already was. So this guy is still lying about the lens claiming he found the missing element that he previously claimed he never had and bought the lens with only one lens and I pointed this out to eBay showing them the two descriptions and they still do nothing. C'est la vie. It's clear I wasn't destined to get this one but there's always another one around the corner.

[eddie]

Geoff

I looked. No feed back from u for that seller. Better go look. Maybe u can still leave neg!

[cdholden]

Geoff

I looked. No feed back from u for that seller. Better go look. Maybe u can still leave neg!
I think it was a different username. That seller doesn't look familiar to me.

[cdholden]

So this guy is still lying about the lens claiming he found the missing element that he previously claimed he never had and bought the lens with only one lens and I pointed this out to eBay showing them the two descriptions and they still do nothing.


Look at the two optics side by side. They have a completely different look. The one on the right could be something from Surplus Shed. If after all you said you've done, and Ebay still sits on their hands, they have hit a disappointing new low in my opinion.

[Geoffrey_5995]

Geoff

I looked. No feed back from u for that seller. Better go look. Maybe u can still leave neg!

Hi Eddie, I left feedback and it is there. This is what I wrote in the comment field "SELLS BUY NOW CANCELS AUCTION WANTS MORE MONEY, EXTORTION! AVOID SELLER SCAMMER!" It was posted on May 11th. Geoff

[Geoffrey_5995]

"When he didn't send the lens he told me to cancel the transaction and that he would immediately relist it with the $350 buy it now so I can buy it again, saying the original description was wrong and he didn't want to break eBay rules."

That's wonderful! He doesn't want to break ebay's rules. Did you tell him about the rule that says sellers are supposed to ship items that people buy and pay for?
Hi Brian, Here are the emails he sent after he wouldn't send the lens and his excuses for why he cancelled the sale.

Dear berlinerantiquesaol,

Hi Geoff, I want to sell you the lens but first need to cancel the original auction and relist it for you with the correct description and the missing lens that wasn't included in the auction. If you don't want to cancel it then I guess we can't work the deal out. Please don't threaten me with negative feedback, etc. Let me know if you will cancel the auction. Thanks

- coinopbuyer

&

Dear berlinerantiquesaol,

Hello Geoff, Same price. I would coordinate the relist with you so that you could instantly hit the buy it now. Nobody else would be waiting for the relist. I just looked to see if I could send you another transaction cancel but I can not on my end.. By the way, do you have any idea what the part is that i have listed as a cinema camera lens? Thanks, Nick

- coinopbuyer

&

Dear berlinerantiquesaol,

Hello, There must be someway to still cancel the transaction? I don't want to have to claim a sale twice. Thanks, Nick

- coinopbuyer

&

Dear berlinerantiquesaol,

Hello, I meant i would have to claim the sale for tax purposes. There must be another way to void it. It's late, I will check on it tomorrow. Thanks, Nick

- coinopbuyer

[Geoffrey_5995]

Well, the lens ended and then he rilisted it at $6999 buy it now and kept lowering the price to finally $1699 but it did sell so he reilisted it again with with buy it now $1699, I might have my number wrong, but finally it sold with best offer of $1500, which is what I offered him when he refused to send it. C'est la vie. I don't think it's worth even that but it is the only Pinkham I've seen that has doublet engraved on it. The only other doublets I'm aware of are Semi-Achromat Series III f4.5, the Visual Qualities and the Bi Qualities which were not manufactured by Pinkham & Smith but only Pinkham long after P&S were out of business. But, I do have a very rare and interesting P&S Synthetic Doublet f4 that can be seen on Dan Colucci's soft focus page #1. So early pre-Visual Quality doublets are very rare and worth researching. Geoffrey

[Petzval Paul]

Geoffrey, Weren't the Series II S.A.'s also doublets? If I had to guess, I would say that maybe this "holy grail" was an early example of the Series II model. I know of one other quite similar to this owned by a forum member (it just reads "Doublet" - no "Special"). The serial #'s are very close, too.

As far as what could be defined a "holy grail", that depends on the individual. For a collector, it could be quite different from a user. Of course, every collector and user has his own criteria, so who can say? Naturally we all have our own conceptions and we certainly don't need every ebay seller to declare that his particular item for sale is the HOLY F'ing GRAIL!

That being said, when I purchased my P&S Synthetic, the seller also had it listed as a holy grail. Lame, I know... but I don't regret buying it!

[Geoffrey_5995]

Geoffrey, Weren't the Series II S.A.'s also doublets? If I had to guess, I would say that maybe this "holy grail" was an early example of the Series II model. I know of one other quite similar to this owned by a forum member (it just reads "Doublet" - no "Special"). The serial #'s are very close, too.

As far as what could be defined a "holy grail", that depends on the individual. For a collector, it could be quite different from a user. Of course, every collector and user has his own criteria, so who can say? Naturally we all have our own conceptions and we certainly don't need every ebay seller to declare that his particular item for sale is the HOLY F'ing GRAIL!

That being said, when I purchased my P&S Synthetic, the seller also had it listed as a holy grail. Lame, I know... but I don't regret buying it!

Hi Paul, You are absolutely right. Semi-Achromat Series II f6 is also a doublet. But I should add that Pinkham sold many special order lenses and seemed to have experimented quite a bit. I have several Pinkhams that don't appear in any of their catalogs, at least the catalogs I've seen. Geoff