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View Full Version : Centennial 1A Stand Owners Please help.



akfreak
8-Jun-2011, 03:23
Some of you may know I am restoring a 10a Century master studio camera. It has the Centennial 1A stand and I am missing some parts. I need some help from those who own one of these stands. Only those that are willing to take some reference images with a tape measure. so I re construct some of the items.

1st The table top. Can you take a picture to show me how long it is. Also there are two attach points for the camera to the table. Can you measure the front of the camera to the front of the table (if yours is bolted to the table using the factory bushings in the camera)

2nd Please can you shoe me how the two hinges, at the main cross brace, attach to the table top on the bottom of the table. This may require taking the camera off the table and flipping the table over. Please I know it is a Pain. I am shooting in the dark. I have never sen one up close intact. Is there some sort of block between the table top and the hinge?

3rd. I have my cross brace (bottom one) repaired. I need to see exactly how the angle pole attaches to the table and allows for angle adjustment. I am going to have to find a donor stand to get that assembly or fabricate something myself. Mine is totally missing. Also please measure the support pole. and take some good clear pictures as well.

4th With the camera full up position. Please measure to the floor to the top of the table. Then adjust the table to it's lowest angle and take another picture. I am trying to figure travel of the table top with respect to angle. If it has the ability to adjust vertically (camera lens pointing downward) please measure from the floor to the back of the table at it's most extreme adjustment.

5th. Thanks, thanks for those that are willing to take your time to help me. I have searched everywhere for technical drawings with reference distances. I have searched for plans, drawings, ect.. I often see completed distance shots of a stand, but nothing I can use as a true reference. I need some help and I tank you.

If I were trapped on Gilligan's Island, I can cobble something together, this is just not my style. I want to do it as best as I can. I cant afford to make a mold and have parts cast but I am willing to spend a few bucks to get my camera back to her former glory!


Lastly if you have any parts, or run across any parts, Knobs, pins, accessory's for my camera. Please drop me a line. I am always interested. I have a bug day tomorrow, I want to have my camera sitting on the stand in bare wood, ready for finish.


Thanks to all. AKf

Steven Tribe
8-Jun-2011, 06:25
Could you remind me of what the Centennial 1A stand looks like? Is this the bipost with 58.5cm from centre to centre? Can help you sometime tonight if it is. Table is just under 79cm long - metal fitments are very special.

big_ben_blue
8-Jun-2011, 07:38
Check this link - it shows the 10A outfit (incl stand) in Eastman's 1927 catalog: http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/kodak_3.html

Steven Tribe
8-Jun-2011, 12:26
Yes, this is the one I have. The 30" model for 8x10".


1st The table top. Can you take a picture to show me how long it is. Also there are two attach points for the camera to the table.

Have given you my measurements. My camera has no bolts that attach it to the table. There is a front profiled bar (held in place by two large screws from underneath the table) which is 34cm long.


2nd Please can you shoe me how the two hinges, at the main cross brace, attach to the table top on the bottom of the table. This may require taking the camera off the table and flipping the table over. Please I know it is a Pain. I am shooting in the dark. I have never sen one up close intact. Is there some sort of block between the table top and the hinge?

No block with 2 hinges connection to cross piece/table top plywood (2cm). Good quality - like door hinges. 3 screws in each part.

Photos 1 and 2.



3rd. I have my cross brace (bottom one) repaired. I need to see exactly how the angle pole attaches to the table and allows for angle adjustment. I am going to have to find a donor stand to get that assembly or fabricate something myself. Mine is totally missing. Also please measure the support pole. and take some good clear pictures as well.

Cameraeccentric shows the cast iron fitment. I include photos of the front brace(3) and rear table attachment (4). Support pole is 53cm long (approx 3x2cm profile).

These are not good clear pictures . Photo 4 comes in a second posting!
Photo5 shows the braces attachment to the lower wood cross member.

Steven Tribe
8-Jun-2011, 12:31
And here are the last two bad photos 4 and 5.

akfreak
8-Jun-2011, 15:12
Check this link - it shows the 10A outfit (incl stand) in Eastman's 1927 catalog: http://www.cameraeccentric.com/html/info/kodak_3.html

Awesome link. Tells me a lot of great info. Thanks

akfreak
8-Jun-2011, 15:25
Thanks Steven, the table 30" is awesome, I plan to make the 37" version so if I ever find an 8A I will be ready, 37' is for 11x14. My stand is a No. 1-A 30x17 but I plan to make it a No. 2-A 37x17

You guys are so wonderful.

Now I just need to find the wooden table adjustment parts. I need the lower mount, the wood pole, and the Screw drive and handle section. Then I am all done finding parts.


I will have the table built, with a temporary brace to keep the table from falling. and the camera stripped to wood sitting on it tonight. If you know of any table parts, please be sure to let me know, AKf

Steven Tribe
8-Jun-2011, 15:54
I very much doubt that you will find the real parts. It would not be impossible to make the sub parts, which are not too complicated. These would to be based on a 8/10mm threaded rod, which can be bought anywhere. The angled bracket at the rear could be exchanged for a standard 90 degree bracket. You could then bore a hole at an angle and thread it. A cast turning wheel might be available from agricultural machinery scrap yards.

Harold_4074
8-Jun-2011, 17:48
The easiest (not necessarily cheapest) source for threaded rod and handwheel would be McMaster-Carr. The original is a V-thread, which is not particularly well suited, so if historical accuracy is not paramount a 1/2-10 Acme threaded rod would easier to operate. McMaster-Carr item 93255A439 would probably do it. (Every other imaginable threaded rod seems also to be in their catalog, in case you want Whitworth threads or maybe titanium.)

Handwheels can also be had from the same source; from memory, 6026K132 or 6026K143 would be pretty close. A little machine work would be needed to attach to the threaded rod; if you want to DIY, you could use 1/2-13 rod, drill out the pilot hole in the handwheel using somebody's drill press, and tap. A locknut on the opposite side would keep things together. The deluxe version would have a turned-down rod, matching bore in the handwheel, with a cross drilling for a roll pin in the hub of the handwheel.

I'll try to remember to get the actual part dimensions when I get home tonight.

akfreak
8-Jun-2011, 22:08
Thanks again guys, I will make something temporary just to hold it and make a few notches to the angle support pole just to ha e some table adjustment.

I found a 8a stand 37" (table missing) and the guy said I can have it if I just come and get it.

He is recovering from sort of storms in Kentucky last I spoke. I hope that he logs on that forum soon and gets my message. I want him to strip the hardware, box it, tube it, ect.. and ship it to me. I dont need the whole thing. The kicker is, I will pay him. It's been 2 weeks since we last spoke. I hope he hasn't flaked on the deal.

Harold if you dont mind the dimensions that would be great.

I see the bracket at the base, I see bracket at the top (on bottom of the table, a threaded holder). Can either of you guys throw a tape measure on the adjustment pole for length.

Also a tape measure showing the placement of the rear threaded bracket (bottom of table). I need to know placement from the front of the table). I have to assume the lower angle bracket is just centered on the lower cross support.

My camera has two threaded bushings on the bottom of the camera. Can tell me how far back the front of the camera is to the front of the table.


I went to make pictures this evening. I got two 4x5 B&W shots done, then I saw this cool lizard. I was in the desert so I grabbed the 7D. Took my shots, packed it up, the golden hour was not golden anymore.

I was headed down the mountain in the desert of Boulder City NV. When I happen to cross a little scrub bush and I hear a slight rattle and a huge rattler lunged at me. I slipped on the loose rocks and my 7D smashed into a huge rock.

The lcd is toast, the magnesium body has two huge gouges in it. Now I am on the ground with the little turd coiled up ready to strike again. I was freakin. I managed not to drop the Cambo Monorail or my lens and film bag. The snake was cool I turned on the 7D and started shooting, it was like a digital film camera. I could not chimp. I switched to video mode and got a few seconds, then I snapped a few more frames and away he went. It was a bad day that almost got a lot worse.

I shot my first 4x5, ruined a $1,800 camera. and almost got bit 2 times by a rattle snake. I will post some images if you want to see them. Not film the son of a gun would not sit till long enough for me to set up the sticks and load a holder, "LOL"


I love the desert but it is dangerous!

Here is the snake who almost bit me and caused me to smash my 7d
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3091/5813950507_ebf57d503e_z.jpg

eddie
8-Jun-2011, 22:19
Yeah! Link us to some snake photos.

akfreak
9-Jun-2011, 02:12
This little guy was mean

http://lilsamedia.com/rattle_snake_small_for_eddies_iphone.jpg

Just snake Hope it is small enough eddie
http://lilsamedia.com/just%20snake.jpg

Steven Tribe
9-Jun-2011, 02:31
What is your timeline on completion of the Stand? I do the occasional bronze/brass casting (wax and sand form) when the weather is not too hot outdoors- I used to make fitments for old sports cars. The two angled fitments under the board would obviously have to be bronze and some mms thicker. Just basic casting of the form - you would have to do the cleaning up of the casting and bore holes. The turning lever perhaps too?

If Eddie doesn't have any "extra" fittings, that is!

akfreak
9-Jun-2011, 14:12
Steve,That would be incredible. No problem, I would do the clean up and finish work. How much for the parts? Time line is when ever is fine. I dont plan to sell it. I want to keep it. Thanks for such a wonderful offer. Steve you are an amazing person.

Steven Tribe
9-Jun-2011, 14:22
I have the firing coke and scrap bronze - and the occasional casting exercise is great fun, now that garden bonfires are environmentally prohibited.
Price is postage.
But again, only if Eddie (or others) doesn't have them.
He has some better rubber wheels for this model, by the way.

Louis Pacilla
9-Jun-2011, 14:30
"My camera has two threaded bushings on the bottom of the camera. Can tell me how far back the front of the camera is to the front of the table." AKFreak

Your camera is a Century Master & not a 10a. The main difference is the hood attachment hardware on the top of your rear standard & the female threads to attach the Mater camera to the Master stand. The Master was Centurys last studio camera.

The Master camera & stand had a much greater ark of tilt so Kodak added the hardware for attaching the camera to the stand. It was the only model to do this. It is totally unnecessary especially if you don't have the tilt spindle for the master stand neither the 1a or 2a spindle are as long so your camera stand tilt will not be great enough to worry about the camera coming off the stand.

One more thing to clear up for you. Simply making your 1a platform the same size as the 2a will not give you 2a stand. The wood on the 2a stand is larger than the wood on the 1a. The spring tension is also much greater to carry the load of the much larger 8a. Finally the wheel used to raise & lower is much larger as well.


That said, you will have a larger platformed 1a & if you find a 8a w/out stand the 8a would sit better on your 1a. Just be careful when you release the lock to raise or lower your camera. It will fly to ground if you let go of the wheel. Because the spring tension is not enough. Just don't take your hand off the wheel & you'll be O.K.

D. Bryant
9-Jun-2011, 17:44
Some of you may know I am restoring a 10a Century master studio camera.f

I would suggest that you purchase or check out from your library a Video/Book on fine furniture restoration by Bob Flexner.

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/understandingwoodfinishingrevisededition.aspx

I've found it to be invaluable for wood restoration.

akfreak
9-Jun-2011, 18:21
@ Louis Mine looks like the Centennial, the crank handle is strait not curved, Do you have a picture of the master studio stand?

If you have one, can you please take some shots with a tape measure so I can see what the sizes are, table, angle support pole, hardware for vertical adjustment and placement of the table screws.

Also what is the length of the master studio table. On the literature I read there was a 30" and a 37" but this was for the centennial. In the literature it mentions the differences of the table length from 30" to 37". The 30" for 10a and 37 for the 8A.

I am baffled now. I have been looking everywhere, asking and asking anyone who will talk. Have had a handful of people trying to help me. Now I come to understand I am looking for the wrong information. I feel so stupid.

I know I have a master studio and it looks identical to a 10a, except for the hood attachment hardware, What does that hood look like? I have never seen one.

I want to build the correct table. I want to be able to point the camera downward. Louis please post as much information, links, images, ect... you have. I want to build the correct stand. If I am going to do through all the effort. I want it to be correct!

I will take pictures of mine and show you exactly what I have.

Thanks everyone that has been helping me. I am sorry for my stupidity, the stand looks so much like mine in the literature I assumes it was a Centennial 1A stand, My camera is a Graflex Century Master Studio Camera with stand. Sorry if I wasted anyone's time. I feel a bit deflated at the moment.

Steven Tribe
10-Jun-2011, 01:49
Don't panic! My guess is that the 1a and 2a have the same basic hardware.

akfreak
10-Jun-2011, 02:41
Here is what mine looks like
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2349/5817598052_f64359e911_z.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3217/5817026545_931638a0f6_z.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2440/5817594212_c49e5154bd_z.jpg

I thing I have the factory rubber wheels
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3006/5817023723_18bd76d3c7_z.jpg

akfreak
10-Jun-2011, 02:50
The front fascia is broken out. I guess they wanted the table assembly and took the cross lower brace too.
I can fabricate the fascia no problem, But does it cover the lower cross support? Did it have film holders there, Like on an 8A
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2158/5817020461_68ecf58da2_z.jpg

They didn't kick hard enough there is still a lower lip for the lower cross brace, it will; save me a few hours re fixing it

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2158/5817020461_68ecf58da2_z.jpg

There is a lot of iron on this stand, Nice and heavy. I made a 37" table top. I think it will work when I get a 10a someday. If I need to wind the spring tighter to handle the extra weight then so be it.

For now I want to see a real master stand so I have a reference, anyone know where to see one

Louis Pacilla
10-Jun-2011, 06:21
You have a Master


This is a Master This is a 10a

Louis Pacilla
10-Jun-2011, 06:48
"The front fascia is broken out. I guess they wanted the table assembly and took the cross lower brace too.
I can fabricate the fascia no problem, But does it cover the lower cross support? Did it have film holders there, Like on an 8A" Akfreak


The Master was the Only stand to have the holder space between the uprights.

This is a 8a/2a combo

jp
10-Jun-2011, 07:06
You have a Master


This is a Master This is a 10a

Louis, what is the metal plate for on the lower right of the 10a there?

Louis Pacilla
10-Jun-2011, 07:16
Louis, what is the metal plate for on the lower right of the 10a there?

Good question. I think( but not 100% sure) it was for some type of studio lights attachment. Looks like it could have been made by early photogenic Co. Maybe some type of hardware for Photogenic flash sync? It is defiantly an after market piece.

Steven Tribe
10-Jun-2011, 08:44
This is the same grey color bellows I have on mine - I thought I was alone!

Louis Pacilla
10-Jun-2011, 09:05
This is the same grey color bellows I have on mine - I thought I was alone!

Hey Steven are you talking about the bellows on my 8a?

If so, the bellows look grey but they are black. It's just not a real dark rich black kind of black grey I guess.

They are in fantastic shape no light leaks & not brittle at all so I don't think they have faded much. Probably the tone they dyed the material at that time.

Attention to all who care. One of my favorite sites Field Cameras of the United States has added a slew of catalogs . It's like a dream come true & I thank him from the bottom of my heart. Here's a link to one of the Kodak Professional Catalog.

Here ya go Freak. Check this site out-http://piercevaubel.com/cam/catalogs/1932&3ekcproflp122.htm

Louis Pacilla
10-Jun-2011, 09:15
Here's a direct link to the my favorite site.

http://piercevaubel.com/cam/catalogs/1932&3ekcproflp122.htm

Click on "Catalogs" on the right side bar . He is in the process of scanning more catalogs. Every day he seems to add a few catalogs.

I for one (((Thank you))). Great resource!

akfreak
10-Jun-2011, 10:57
Louis, Are all of those cameras yours? If so can you roll the master out and do some documentation for me. I need to see the under carriage of the table.
1. I need to see the hardware for the table tilt.
2. what is the table size
3. How far back is the camera on the table (placement of the camera)
4. how long is the dimension of little strip of wood in the front on the table top, and how far back is it placed.
5. What is on the back side of the fascia, are there little holders a shelf, pockets what does it look like.
6. From 90 degrees how much tilt does the table have up and down.

Lastly Can you make make a closeup image of the front fascia so I can see what the placard says and looks like. Also the size of the plate itself, I am going to have to recreate that placard. I am going to have to sublimated or one silk screen one on brass. I know I will never find this plate, So I will recreate it myself.

I think it may be easiest to pull the camera out in the middle of the room. Set up a video camera, and use a tape measure to document all of the sizes, the table swing, and the front placard up close showing with a tape how big it is and the distance from the edge to the little detail boarder is on the front fascia. Also id you could grab the camera odd the tripod in the end and take some video of the under carriage. So I can see exactly what the tilt assembly looks like as well as the lower mount.

Lastly if you can measure the angled pole used to adjust the table angle, that would be so great.

I know I will never recreate an Original, however I will do my very best to try and do so. That image is the first time I have seen one. You have a museum of Studio camera's It makes me want to put a match to my pile of timber as yours are so beautiful and mine is such a turd.

I really appreciate your time. I wish I lived closer, I would love to visit and see your wonderful collection. If you dont mind, what beast of a lens is that on your master?

I am going to pm you if that is OK?

Steven Tribe
10-Jun-2011, 11:10
No Louis, mine is absolutely grey and in quite wonderfull condition. Mine is a strange Century Studio as it has no, and never had (no screws holes) any identifying marks. I can only assume this is an import version into Germany during the 30's when there was a whole government department that put pressure on the German Ford Organisation and other US and UK companies to manufacture in Germany under threat.
Please post here about whether the fittings under the camera table are identical on the 1A and 2A!

Louis Pacilla
10-Jun-2011, 12:07
Please post here about whether the fittings under the camera table are identical on the 1A and 2A!

Hey Steven

If your taking about the gear track,spring tension unit/gears ,tilt handle & other tilt metal parts all seem to be the same size although the spring may be bigger.

The one cast metal part that's larger is the wheel used to raise & lower the camera

The most noticeable difference between the 1a/Master versus the 2a is ALL wood parts are larger. Even the support between the uprights (1 3/4" for the 1a 2 1/2" for the 2a). And of course,the platform is larger

I think I've seen your camera before or at least a snap shot of her. She's a beauty. Your bellow are grey as I recall. Interesting right? do you think they are original .

Hey Tom. I'll talk to you this evening.

Steven Tribe
10-Jun-2011, 12:38
Yes it has been here before - I just got excited when I thought I had found another grey/gray bellows. I am sure they are original - the camera was in the same studio through, and post, WW2 in Sweden.
So OP can use my casting skills for the odd board attachments! I'll make some extra at the same time - Experience show this is a good idea as it takes hours to reach the right temperature.

Harold_4074
10-Jun-2011, 12:59
I measured some of the critical dimensions on my 1A stand last night, and made up a dimensioned drawing of the tilt mechanism. Unfortunately, I may have missed a number, because there doesn't seem to be nearly enough wood surrounding the pin at the upper end of the support rod. The pin holes appear to be precisely 19 inches apart, and the rod cross section measures 1.240 by 0.785 wide. It is beveled in the central portion so that the diagonal measurement across the flats is 1.250 (presumably a coincidence...). I neglected to get the runout radius of the bevel or the distance from its starting point to the end of the rod; I'll measure these this weekend in case anyone wants to make an historically correct rod. From one of the pictures earlier in the thread, the wood near the pin hole may actually be as thin as my sketch now suggests, which may explain why so many of these supports seem to be either replacements or just missing.

The tilt screw is a nominal 1/2 inch diameter, 1/4 inch pitch. It seems to have four thread starts, so the thread form is that of a 16 TPI thread. The screw is brass, and the nut that runs along it appears to be cast iron. This will be a tough item to replicate unless a source can be found for stock threaded rod and matching nuts. A better replacement would be a steel 1/2-8 Acme thread with two starts (as in McMaster Carr 99030A116). The matching nut, in bronze, would be 1343K15 and could be reworked into a part very similar in form to the original.

One reason that I made the measurements is that the link travel on my stand is about 1.8 inches less than the threaded rod length. At that point, the hinges supporting the table are fully closed, and the table is about level. It seems that if the hinges were tilted by means of a wedge-shaped shim, the rod would allow tilting upward as well as downward. There is nothing present to keep the camera from sliding backward, but the hinges seem not to be original (nickel plated?) and it is possible that a rear stop was also removed at some point.

I'll have to look more closely, but I think the legend plates are stampings with the background filled in by enamel. If so, doing a silk-screen resist and etching out the background may lead to a very passable reproduction.

I was wrong about the tilt handle; only the elevation handle is circular. The tilt handle with the elegant Victorian S-curve handle doesn't seem to be offered in any of the tooling and supply catalogs that I have, so this would definitely be a candidate for reproduction by casting. (In point of fact, the S-curve in that crank is a nonfunctional but esthetically pleasing holdover from the need to curve the spokes in circular wheels, to accommodate shrinkage when casting them. It's sort of cute that the elevation wheel has straight spokes...)

akfreak, I'll try to send you a .pdf of the stand mechanism sketch; the geometry is basically correct, but some of the details are not. When I have cleaned up the errors, I'll put up the final drawing.

Steven Tribe
10-Jun-2011, 13:24
"It's sort of cute that the elevation wheel has straight spokes..."

Well mine (and some catogues) have the curved spokes.

Harold_4074
10-Jun-2011, 13:39
Well mine (and some catogues) have the curved spokes.

Not surprising; can we similarly justify a straight elevation crank? That would make the use of current manufacture a bit more acceptable.