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Steve Singleton
31-May-2001, 20:31
Now that my first HABS/HAER shoot is in prospect, I'm scrambling to find informa tion about the film and paper processing requirements. The National Park Servic e pub is only a buck, but allowing "three to four weeks for delivery" is too slo w. Can anyone point me to a web resource or summarize the darkroom requirements ? I'm particularly interested in how people alter typical clearing and washing procedures to make sure negs and prints meet the archival specifications. Do yo u adhere strictly to the specifications, or adapt your own procedures to produce the desired results?

kthompson
31-May-2001, 22:28
Steve, I assume that you've been to the NPS website, right?? I've never done any HABS/HAER stuff, although I'm a little bit familiar with the guidelines based on the site documentation that goes on in- state within my agency...that said, I can't really give you specific guidelines...I do know there have been a few people who've posted here that do this sort of stuff, if you can hold on, I'm sure they can help.

james norman
1-Jun-2001, 16:38
i do HABS/HAER recordation for a living. if you email me your fax number, i can fax you the standards. the process to prepare these materials for submittal to NPS i quite involved, and i have a full- time assistant that does nothing but process all my work for submittal. all the work is large-format and black-and-white, unless LF CTs are specifically requested by paul dolinski (HABS) or eric delony (HAER). each negative must be archivally processed, and labelled in the margin with the accession number. each print is on fiber-base paper, also to archival standards, and labelled on the verso. each negative goes in its own archival sleeve which also must be labelled, and each print is mounted on a card, also labelled. for many projects, we also must process the historic narrative materials. all materials are tested upon receipt at NPS, and if they do not test properly for archival stability, they are rejected. btw, i use permawash :-)

Steve Singleton
5-Jun-2001, 17:42
Just a follow-up for anyone interested. This site, which for some reason did not show up on my previous search, has a good bit of information: http://www.cr.nps.gov/habshaer/haer/manual/chapter3.pdf.

pchaplo
9-Oct-2015, 10:31
i do HABS/HAER recordation for a living. ... ... ... all materials are tested upon receipt at NPS, and if they do not test properly for archival stability, they are rejected. btw, i use permawash :-)

James, how does HABS/HAER test for archival stability? How can I ensure that my film and prints are properly processed? Is it a matter of longer washing time? I see that you use Perma-Wash and I am reading about that now -- do you use Perma-Wash after a long water wash? Thanks, Paul

Sal Santamaura
10-Oct-2015, 08:52
i do HABS/HAER recordation for a living...all materials are tested upon receipt at NPS, and if they do not test properly for archival stability, they are rejected. btw, i use permawash :-)


James, how does HABS/HAER test for archival stability? How can I ensure that my film and prints are properly processed? Is it a matter of longer washing time? I see that you use Perma-Wash and I am reading about that now -- do you use Perma-Wash after a long water wash? Thanks, PaulI regularly applaud posters who add on to an existing thread, regardless of its age, rather than starting a new, redundant one. However, two bits of searching argue against awarding kudos in this case. :)

First, James Norman's profile indicates he was last active here on December 6, 2001. Second, a quick Google inquiry leads to this page


http://www.nps.gov/hdp/standards/PhotoGuidelines.pdf

that provides the current standards (as of June 2015) for processing. It's not clear to me from this document that the HABS/HAER office actually tests submissions for residual hypo. To obtain a definitive answer, I suggest you contact them directly at the provided email address:


hdp_collections@nps.gov

pchaplo
10-Oct-2015, 22:07
Thanks, Sal -- I lull myself to sleep each night with the June 2015 Update of the Photography Guidelines on my lap. BTW, the transmittal info was also updated in June! In any case, I will experiment with washing and test my own negs for hypo simply for humble craft and endless curiosity.

schafphoto
11-Oct-2015, 15:43
Hi All, I’ve talked to NPS about the testing aspect. but I’ll start a new thread since this one has so much antiquated info ... Fax machine? That’s like one of those cameras with a bellows ;-)

schafphoto
11-Oct-2015, 16:22
In order to update a badly outdated thread from 2001 about HABS/HAER/HALS (H3) standards, there are new standards for H3 Large Format Photography.

Available as downloadable PDFs from the National Park Service (NPS) who administers H3 through it’s Heritage Documentation Programs (HDP) department which administers the Historic American Buildings Survey (HABS), the Federal Government's oldest preservation program, and its companion programs: the Historic American Engineering Record (HAER) and the Historic American Landscapes Survey (HALS). Documentation produced through HABS/HAER/HALS constitutes the nation's largest archive of historic architectural, engineering, and landscape documentation. (A study in acronyms, no?)

Search online for "HABS Photo Guidelines” when this link no longer works: http://www.nps.gov/hdp/standards/PhotoGuidelines.pdf
Search online for "HABS Transmittal Guidelines” when this link no longer works: http://www.nps.gov/hdp/standards/Transmittal.pdf

HABS recording combines drawings, history, and photography to produce a comprehensive, interdisciplinary record. The documentation ranges in scope depending largely upon the level of significance and complexity. The large-format, black-and-white photographs record the environmental setting, elevations, and significant details, both inside and out to create a comprehensive understanding of the site.

The photographic artifacts are housed as a special collection at the Library of Congress (LoC), Prints & Photographs department. All H3 photographs are available for high resolution download for free and all photos in the H3 collection are in the public domain. Some very famous photographers and architects have worked for H3 and I have HABS images from Julius Schulman and Marvin Rand hanging in my Darkroom. If you want to lose a Sunday afternoon exploring the LoC’s collection of H3 photos you will be amazed. Just go and enter your city or county into the search bar here: http://www.loc.gov/pictures/collection/hh/

Of interest to photographers on this list is: “How do I take photos for H3?” Large format photos, if produced to the H3 standards, can be donated by any photographer. If the subject is an historic, unique or significant building, landscape, or engineering example (bridge, mine, canal, ship) the negatives and a single set of contact prints can be donated and put into the public domain. Obviously H3 is trying to document the most significant properties like the California Missions, the Golden Gate Bridge and the Statue of Liberty. In addition though they want the “Complete resume of the builder’s art.” Vernacular houses, folk-art environments, public art and a one-of-kind hot dog stand are some of the documentations I have donated along with the first skyscraper in San Francisco and an art deco high school auditorium for clients.

Of note is that H3/NPS/HDP does not test the film for stability any longer. It is assumed you know what you are doing. It is a responsibility to create work for future generations to meet the Life Expectancy 500 Year standard (LE500) and so even in California’s drought I make sure that the negatives are washed, cleared and rewashed and then rerewashed again. I have a FAQ and more info on my website and the HDP/NPS website and downloadable guidelines above explain the very deliberate and complex process for creating and delivering the photos. if there are questions, post them here, there are a number of H3 photographers who are always answering questions. Just put HABS in the title since that makes searching easier.

Good luck!

Oren Grad
11-Oct-2015, 17:29
Merged, with an updated title.

pchaplo
14-Oct-2015, 17:34
I make sure that the negatives are washed, cleared and rewashed and then rerewashed again.

Oren and Schaf, Thanks for the updated and merged thread.

Schaf, could you tell me more about how your process and wash to meet the standard? Are you using Jobo? For the clear, what exactly are you using? Hypo-Clear?

Another separate question is that the standards mention Perma-Wash as an option -- do you use it? If so, in the last wash?

schafphoto
14-Oct-2015, 23:23
I use the standard developer-stop-fix-wash sequence. Then I use perma wash then rinse in running water then end with bath of distilled water with 1/2 dose of photoflo. I use the times on that perma wash recommends. Sorry for typos. On my phone.

Sal Santamaura
15-Oct-2015, 08:44
So you guys don't think a few rinses in a Jobo drum are "good enough?" :rolleyes:*

*Note that this is the "Sarcastic" emoticon!

Jac@stafford.net
15-Oct-2015, 10:52
So you guys don't think a few rinses in a Jobo drum are "good enough?" :rolleyes:*
*Note that this is the "Sarcastic" emoticon!

Is it likely that HABS/HAER is scanning the submissions?

Sal Santamaura
15-Oct-2015, 12:10
Is it likely that HABS/HAER is scanning the submissions?Sure, but what's that got to do with its Life Expectancy 500 Year standard (LE500) for the negatives?

Jac@stafford.net
15-Oct-2015, 12:13
Sure, but what's that got to do with its Life Expectancy 500 Year standard (LE500) for the negatives?

It has the look of a policy in transition.

Sal Santamaura
15-Oct-2015, 12:32
It has the look of a policy in transition.To me it has the look of a policy which recognizes that, while digital files require ongoing, almost continuous attention to remain readable, and inkjet prints may be fugitive, properly processed polyester-based silver gelatin negatives can be counted upon to last at least half a millennium with just a little regard for appropriate storage conditions. :)

Jac@stafford.net
15-Oct-2015, 12:52
To me it has the look of a policy which recognizes that, while digital files require ongoing, almost continuous attention to remain readable, and inkjet prints may be fugitive, properly processed polyester-based silver gelatin negatives can be counted upon to last at least half a millennium with just a little regard for appropriate storage conditions. :)

I have always been respectful of archival processes, and skeptical of digital storage, and the later was part of my job. I'm happy to say that I've retired from that job.

schafphoto
16-Oct-2015, 12:40
The cool thing is that the negatives (almost all since 1933) have been scanned for years to make them accessible to the public. The 15MB tiffs you can download from the Library of Congress website are pretty impressive. I recently used some in a book on cemeteries I published. The scanning also allows the negatives to be handled less since they are scanned as part of the accession process. Then moved off-site to the climate controlled facilities at Fort Meade In Maryland. And basically left alone, untouched unless a new scan or print was needed.

dpn
13-Mar-2016, 21:49
Here's a question for those of you doing 3H photography. The current version (June 2015) of the HABS photography guidelines (http://www.nps.gov/hdp/standards/PhotoGuidelines.pdf) states that 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10 negatives are acceptable, but that "[t]he 5x7 size has long been preferred due to its ability to capture context and structures both long and tall."

In real terms, has anyone had luck submitting 4x5 negatives to the HDP, or will there be pushback for not submitting in the preferred 5x7 size?

All things being equal, I'd prefer to shoot 5x7 since the aspect ratio seems more flexible for shooting long and tall structures. (I also like that aspect ratio better for my personal work.) Things aren't equal, however, and 4x5 film, cameras, etc. are significantly less expensive and more readily available than 5x7.

That said, if the guidelines and the agency really prefer 5x7 and only grudgingly accept 4x5, then 5x7 will be the way to go.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance,

Dan

Kirk Gittings
14-Mar-2016, 00:23
I never had a problem submitting 4x5-never a negative comment.

jnantz
14-Mar-2016, 06:53
+ 1

dpn
14-Mar-2016, 10:26
That's wonderful information, thank you.

schafphoto
14-Mar-2016, 11:32
Ditto, 4x5 is probably the majority of what they get at Heritage Documentation Programs in DC. 5x7 is still great for really significant subjects like the Golden Gate Bridge, The White House, The Awahnee Hotel (Strike that- Yosemite Valley Hotel) or other National Landmarks. I heard that the photographer that did the space shuttle did it all in 8x10! 4x5 and 5x7 still allow for pretty quick and light setup in the field especially when you are dragging a hundred film holders around with you, I can’t imagine doing that with 8x10 on a deadline. I can get 30 views in a day if I’m with the right assistant and we’re really motivated, but on average we get 20-24 views if we’re not lighting interiors or dealing with generators for electricity. My Cambo is set up to do both formats with a 5x7 leather bag bellows and 5x7 back that will take a 4x5 reducing back and a custom Polaroid back. I use 4x5 when I’m photographing some of the less significant resources that sometimes require documentation under the California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA) and 5x7 whenever I have a really important National Register resource or National Historic Landmark. It’s really a treat to use the 72mm XL Schneider on 5x7 when you need a REALLY wide view, and the 120 Nikon is great for generally wide angles with plenty of movements (4x5 too).

I’m still using peel-apart Fujiroids to proof each camera position and doing a Digital view on my Nikon DSLR for the client in color. So that takes extra time, but as my expired stash of Fuji 100B runs out I’ll need to start relying more on the Nikon for “Digiroiding" at f22 and then switch back to f7.1 for the sharp digital version because the Nikon wide angle lens is terrible at f22.

Good luck,

-Schaf

pchaplo
16-Mar-2018, 09:57
More questions:

1. Index to Photographs: I see that samples on the Index to Photographs in the Transmittal Guidelines often give orientation of the view as something like "View of facade from the west." This seems like a silly detail, but does this mean that the photographer and camera are looking eastward aka "from west to east"?

2. Secondly, do you submit a field "shot log" of your shots as part of your submission?

ps: Schaf, I LOVE that interior shot above. Also, I found a boldly marked scale stick for a great price and the markings are all excellent condition -- much more legible at distance that then "modern" ones. Thanks!

schafphoto
16-Mar-2018, 17:49
Hi Paul,

We all have our own writing style for HABS/HAER/HALS captions... they are often written after-the-fact by the historians without the benefit of the photographer's notes so they may only be able to describe the facade or the view. I have seen very minimal captions. east facade, west facade, south facade, front entry... etc.
I create a draft of the index for the historian to add/edit. And I submit a photo keymap which shows the camera positions. The order of the photos goes from the widest context view to general views of the building to facade views, to exterior details and then overall interior views to interior details.

Obviously your captions and your new keymap need to reflect the order of the photos submitted, so you need to do another keymap in post production to reflect the new order.

Here is a sample of mine:

HISTORIC AMERICAN ENGINEERING RECORD
INDEX TO PHOTOGRAPHS


LOCKHEED MARTIN SPACE SYSTEMS COMPANY HAER CA-2322-B
BUILDING 151/152
1111 LOCKHEED MARTIN WAY
CITY OF SUNNYVALE
SANTA CLARA COUNTY
CALIFORNIA


STEPHEN D. SCHAFER, PHOTOGRAPHER, FEBRUARY 2016.

CA-2322-B-1 LOCKHEED MARTIN BUILDING 151, OBLIQUE VIEW OF EAST FACADE OF TWO STORY WING AT SOUTHEAST CORNER OF BUILDING. ‘E’ STREET BUILDING 152 IN BACKGROUND AT RIGHT. CAMERA HEIGHT 5′, VIEW FACING NORTH NORTHWEST.
CA-2322-B-2 LEFT SIDE OF 2-PART PANORAMA. OVERVIEW OF EAST SIDE OF BUILDING 151. ACROSS ‘E’ STREET. CAMERA HEIGHT 5′, VIEW FACING WEST SOUTHWEST.
CA-2322-B-3 RIGHT SIDE OF 2-PART PANORAMA. OVERVIEW OF EAST SIDE OF BUILDING 152. ACROSS ‘E’ STREET. CAMERA HEIGHT 5′, VIEW FACING NORTHWEST.
CA-2322-B-4 OVERVIEW OF EAST SIDE OF BUILDING 152. CAMERA POSITIONED ACROSS ‘E’ STREET AT CORNER OF ELECTRICAL SUBSTATION. CAMERA HEIGHT 5′, VIEW FACING NORTHWEST.
CA-2322-B-5 VIEW OF NORTHEAST CORNER OF BUILDING 152. CAMERA HEIGHT 5′, VIEW FACING WEST SOUTHWEST.
CA-2322-B-6 VIEW OF MECHANICAL EQUIPMENT AND EAST AND NORTH FACADES OF BUILDING 152 TOWER WING. CAMERA HEIGHT 5′, VIEW FACING SOUTH SOUTHWEST...

The camera height is not required. I include "east facade" and then also say "camera facing west". The information is now keyword searchable in the index and text, so the more complete the better without being redundant. It gets trickier on a maritime HAER of a ship where you need to use port and starboard instead of compass directions.
Here's what the index looks like formatted and a sample keymap.
176055 176056

pchaplo
19-Mar-2018, 18:27
Schaf,

MANY THANKS! I immediately used this info on my current HAER project. We are submitting Index of Photographs draft. I plotted my camera locations in Google Earth.

Great idea to consider searchable terms. Also, I’m with you in terms of similar writing style.

Do you ever have to submit scans of your handwritten field log?

schafphoto
19-Mar-2018, 23:25
Paul,

I forgot to mention that NPS will probably require the keymap to be from USGS. It's a relatively new requirement but they don't accept Google or Bing base maps for copyright reasons. You can sign up and download high-resolution orthoimagery from the USGS website. https://earthexplorer.usgs.gov

176191

and yes I sometimes scan my field notes and submit them as additional materials.

pchaplo
20-Mar-2018, 10:39
Schaf,

Thanks for the heads-up on the keymap issue; wasn't aware of that. My client has GIS dept and has offered to map my shot locations. That earthexplorer site is a great resource!!! ps: I did snaps with DLSR w/GPS -- thank goodness on this 2-mile project!

Many thanks!

Kirk Gittings
20-Mar-2018, 11:07
They have said that 5x7 was prefered for decades, but I've never had any feedback from them that suggests there was any problem my 4x5 submissions.

pchaplo
20-Mar-2018, 16:06
Kirk, I shoot 4x5. My cooler of film holders is full for one project! I think Schaf shoots some 5x7.

Schaf, I like your "Context," "Oblique," "Orthogonal," and "Vertical" descriptors. Wondering: when you describe a shot as "Vertical" in Index, do you mean 'looking somewhat upward?'

jnantz
20-Mar-2018, 16:18
Paul,

I forgot to mention that NPS will probably require the keymap to be from USGS. It's a relatively new requirement but they don't accept Google or Bing base maps for copyright reasons. You can sign up and download high-resolution orthoimagery from the USGS website. https://earthexplorer.usgs.gov

176191

and yes I sometimes scan my field notes and submit them as additional materials.

i never knew they required a usgs map
i have always drawn a sketch map ( ruler lead &c )
and put directional arrows
and keyed it to the index. never had issues.
good to know what's required these days.

schafphoto
20-Mar-2018, 17:34
Paul, vertical just means the film back is vertical versus horizontal position, not really an important thing to note.

The USGS map is a new thing. Mary, the new collections manager at HDP in Washington, made me do some keymaps over.
I tried to convince her that Google Maps was basically public domain if you read their terms of service, but she insisted on USGS maps.
The USGS maps are very good, high resolution Tiff files, so I can't complain about that. But on more than one occasion the base aerial map in
USGS turned out to be the same as the base aerial map on Google as well. I still use either Google or Bing for keycaps on state surveys because
I am able to compare two different aerials and pick the best one. If you have a GIS department that can produce a custom map, even better.

pchaplo
20-Mar-2018, 21:15
Schaf,

Of course - vertical lol. I need some sleep ;) I replied to your other thread about the rag paper/no OBA requirement- for now, are they still accepting Epson 5-Star Matte?

schafphoto
21-Mar-2018, 17:04
Yes, I'm still submitting 5-star matte and I believe Jarob the NPS HHH photographer is using 5-star matte as well. Not truly archival, but they will be stored in a dark box so probably sufficiently archival in that situation.
-Schaf

pchaplo
21-Mar-2018, 22:48
Thanks, that paper is readily available and more likely to feed well than the 300gsm stuff. Is this the paper? https://www.amazon.com/Epson-Premium-Presentation-8-5x11-S041341/dp/B00004Z613

pchaplo
21-Mar-2018, 22:58
Schaf, I am looking through some old HABS projects on the LOC site. Here is a pic from the 1930's. Take a look at the scale reference on the stairs. Do you ever use a smaller scale for interiors of say a house -- perhaps a stick that does not obscure the detail? Tell me more.

176404
Gotta love it "TX-3"!

A bit of background. I first got a "modern" survey rod and found the markings are quite small, then, after much searching, I found one like yours as I seem to do large structures and the bold marking can be seem at greater distance even in the neg. Wonder if I could get or make a 2 or 3 ft version that I could even attach to a structure?

pchaplo
24-Mar-2018, 12:00
Schaf, thanks. I will use 5-star matte, then later try Epson Hot Press Natural Rag. Are you putting the 8.5 x 11” inkjet prints into archival plastic sleeves such PrintFilr?


Yes, I'm still submitting 5-star matte and I believe Jarob the NPS HHH photographer is using 5-star matte as well. Not truly archival, but they will be stored in a dark box so probably sufficiently archival in that situation.
-Schaf

jnantz
24-Mar-2018, 16:15
schaf
none of the federal jobs i have done and only 1 state level job i have done
required a surveyors pole. is this something new that is asked for to give a reference?
( i've never seen the pole mentioned in the guidelines )
the only job that i did that needed a pole was an archaeological one where i recorded 2 18th century quarries
and the artifacts found and the walls ( it was drained ). the pole was used only as i shot across from
one side of the 300+foot pit to the other and a ruler of some sort was used for the artifacts ( which we left in place ).
thanks !
john

pchaplo
25-Mar-2018, 13:00
The scale stick is suggested in the Photography Guidelines, updated June 2015 (pg.3) under "Views Required." It depends on the project specs and client, level of documentation, and objectives. I now use one in every project, even if "HABS/HAER-like."

jnantz
25-Mar-2018, 16:55
thanks !
seems like a new requirement that was added
within the last few years. its good that they want it for a facade view one
of the front facade without .. i can see how it is useful, but
the scale stick really detracts from the imagery.

john

pchaplo
6-Apr-2018, 20:48
Schaf, for labeling the negative sleeves (envelopes) are you using a 2B pencil? Also, do you deliver in a binder, perhaps acid free?

I believe you mentioned that they are no longer using 3-hole-punched digital cards—so do you simply place the “unpunched” digital 8.5x11” photo pages into Print-File “page protectors,” and same with the film/envelopes? I’m wary of the film envelopes falling out.

Also looking for an affordable perhaps acid-free binder, if that applies.

Thanks,
Paul

schafphoto
7-Apr-2018, 17:57
#2 pencil. Label before putting the negs in the envelopes.

They will toss your binder so just slip the prints into a 9x12 envelope or a Fedex envelope.

The negatives are separate, I put them in a ziplock bag with a desiccant pouch and rubber band them together in a stack.

Then put the whole batch in a box and make sure to only fed-x or UPS the package to Heritage Documentation Programs, the US Mail gets irradiated. The mail-stop number is the most important part:

-- " Only use UPS, FedEx, or DHL to send surveys to Washington, DC. All U.S. Postal Service (USPS) mail sent to Main Interior is subject to irradiation. That process is likely to damage survey materials. I am particularly concerned about the prospect of damaged negatives or hand-drawn sheets that can't be recreated, but irradiated paper and CD/DVDs would also be a problem.

We were told to use this address when we moved to this building. The mail stop number is key. If this is one line too many for the address, I'd combine HDP and NPS. "

Mary McPartland
Heritage Documentation Programs
National Park Service
1849 C Street NW, Mail Stop 7408
Washington, DC 20240

Mary is the collections manager today at HDP. Alternatively, you may also be sending it to a regional NPS office. Call ahead and ask the regional reviewer how they want the deliverable formatted. They will probably accept it the way I have explained above, but they may also want certain i's dotted and t's crossed.

pchaplo
8-Apr-2018, 12:00
Schaf,

Thanks for sharing this key information. I have labeled negatives, scanned film, and submitted PDF's of photo page for client's preliminary submission. Once that passes muster, I will print the digital photo cards.

MANY THANKS!!! Couldn't have learned the HABS-HAER mojo without you.

ps: the skies in your exteriors are tastefully darkened - are you using black and white filters or polarizer most of the time. I am ready to order a B+W screw-on Polarizer as it fits my 90mm and 150mm (my go-to lenses on 4x5). What do you recommend?

Paul

schafphoto
8-Apr-2018, 23:41
Hi Paul,

I use a polarizing filter religiously. I have a 100mm square filter setup. Currently using Lee but I’m considering some of the other 4x4 filter holders. I also use blender, attenuator and graduated ND filters. But have never needed color filters. I know that may sound like blasphemy.

Blenders and attenuators are mostly cinematography gear and i am not aware of a lot of other LF photographers using them. But i find that there are many instances when a graduated filter is too pronounced but there is a visible change from one side of an image to the other of a couple stops. A blender will fix that. I’d start with a .9 (three stop) 4”x5” or 4”x6” blender.

pchaplo
8-May-2018, 07:49
Schaf,

I’ve shot my next one. This one is HABS. On my last assignment’s (HAER) 4x5 neg film, I used the PITT pen, but it did not write on the film base as densely as I had hoped. Still legible, but not as deep or solid black as I had hoped. Your H3 negs markings look so clear and in the scans, white. How do you get them so nice?

I prefer not to use the white eraser, to first scuff the surface, as I don’t want to create debris right before I scan. That being said, I need to find a solution, so I’m open to ideas. I’m ready to proceed with marking negs and scans, so let me know at your earliest convenience.

schafphoto
8-May-2018, 17:30
Schaf, I’ve shot my next one. This one is HABS. On my last assignment’s (HAER) 4x5 neg film, I used the PITT pen,.

I used to use the Pitt pens. I'm now using the Staedler Pigment liner 0.4mm. buy two or three sometimes some are better than others. I used Amazon.

-Schaf

pchaplo
8-May-2018, 17:56
Schaf,

THANKS!!!

Paul


I used to use the Pitt pens. I'm now using the Staedler Pigment liner 0.4mm. buy two or three sometimes some are better than others. I used Amazon.

-Schaf

pchaplo
9-May-2018, 10:06
Schaf, I picked up the Staedtler pigment liners. Local Office Depot has them in-stock but only the multi-size 4 pack. Testing on HP5+ film and found that 0.3 (best) and even 0.1mm (surprisingly usable) look good. Denser than FC PITT. I retrace every letter/number as I write. The 0.5 and 0.7mm I will save for book signing. Office Depot store here honors their online price to save $2. Back to work. Office Max may have them too. $4 cheaper than local art supply store.

178054


I used to use the Pitt pens. I'm now using the Staedler Pigment liner 0.4mm. buy two or three sometimes some are better than others. I used Amazon.

-Schaf