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Discoman
26-May-2011, 18:44
hello all, I was just wanting some more information on where to find the old style powder flashes.
frankly, I was hoping someone knows of a place that may have one, specific models to look for, as well as any tips on using these.

I do know the safety tips, and I do have a recipe already, thanks to The ILFORD Manual of Photography (apprx 1920's version)
I use a bulb flash, but it takes 2a bulbs. and frankly, apart from the occasional cheap ebay auction, those bulbs are expensive. flashbulbs wats $8 per bulb. meggaflash, from what I can guesstimate by matching stats for the bulbs, has a similar bulb, made new. price: not listed. if you have to ask.
but, I ran the numbers for a powder flash, and with a powder flash using about 6.5 grammes of powder mix per flash, and with a reasonably priced powder supplier, it may be cheaper. actually, for $46 I can get 80 powder flashes. at flashbulbs price, I can get 80 bulb flashes for $640. I heard meggaflash charges a little more per bulb.
for the same price, I can get a little over 13x as many flashes from powder (for the $640) than from bulbs.

please, does anyone have anything that can help me here? anything is really appreciated.

oh, and here is the recipe excerpt from the ILFORD book. http://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Ilford/FlashPowder_Manual_of_Photography.html
the whole book is probably readable on google. it should be very interesting.

thanks again!

Two23
26-May-2011, 19:48
I doubt you're going to find it premade because it would be hazardous to ship. Might be able to buy the components from a chemical company or a scientific supply company such as Carolina Biological Supply etc.


Kent in SD

Phil
26-May-2011, 20:07
Try a theater supply store.

Drew Bedo
26-May-2011, 20:20
Check this link for way more than you want to know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_powder

BetterSense
26-May-2011, 20:33
This is a great topic. I started a thread about this over at APUG a few months ago, but was never satisfied. I have a feeling that flash powder is kind of lost technology. I know that flash powder must work really well because of what I know about it historically...we know that they managed to get enough exposure with those big banquet cameras, and there's that shot by Weegee, shot on 4x5, where the whole friggen street is lit up from flash powder. It must be really bright. Flashbulbs are sadly impractical nowadays, and the only other way to get serious on-location illumination is to drag around a 12V battery, massive power inverter and my Novatron. I have a feeling that flash powder can fill this need but the details of its use are lost to time.

Jason Greenberg Motamedi
26-May-2011, 21:27
Here is a long shot: There was a high school kid (probably in college now) on one of the collodion forums who was using flash powder. He might be worth looking up. His first name was Race, I can't recall the last name.

Lynn Jones
27-May-2011, 06:03
My friend, Ken Anderson and I used to make flash powder in the 7th and 8th grade back in Springfield, IL. We'd wrap some in notebook paper, light it afire and throw it under or by police cars, then run. STUPID and dangerous, but what did we expect from teens.

I've used flash powder for camera exposure a couple of times when huge amounts of light were needed. I no longer know the guide numbers but I made the stuff from equal parts of powdered magnesium and potassium nitrate. mix it very carefully, it can blow up in you face from friction or static, this is no joke, blindness or death can result. The Smith-Victor company that still makes tungsten photo light systems was originally the "Victor Flash Powder, Co" in the Chicago are before they threw the company out of IL due to numerous explosions. They moved to Indiana and I think now in CA.

Lynn

Steven Tribe
27-May-2011, 06:41
Don't even think about it.
Even when people were experienced back then, people still got serious burns etc.
The FBI will be on your trail - even if you attempt to buy small quantities (letter bombs).
Straight magnesium (ribbon) is easier to handle.
This is not a sensible activity for "adult" men even though it attracts.

Drew Bedo
27-May-2011, 07:27
Once again: Read the wikapedia article.

You will find that:

1. This infomation is not "lost" . . .its chemistry.

2. Its DANGEROUS.


I have been repetedly surprised in the last few years at how our society has changed regarding the public availability of photo related chemistry and lab supplies. At one time I explored making Daguerreotypes. I had to fill out a form for (did it) the DEA to buy a few grams of Iodine crystals. Seems the stuff is used in makingc. . .somethig. I'm OK with all that, I was just a little surprised.

Another surprise came when I thought about making distilled water for the Daguerreotype process ("control over the "artistic process"). It seems that almost any lab equipment related to distilation is no longer available to the public—even to some types of hot plates and bouiling flasks and a distilation colume is out of the question. After seeing an episode or two of the HBO show, "Breaking Bad" I understand why .I am disapointed byt I'm OK with all that too.

Back to the central topic:

I don't see flash powder as a realistic altenative to strobes today.

Bill Burk
27-May-2011, 08:33
Now I don't know if this is practical or not, but around the 4th of July in my town it is legal to buy and use safe and sane fireworks. A real bright one is called "Lightning Flash" and gives about five seconds of strobe light. Pack of six is under five dollars.

Possessing and using these kinds of flash, unmodified and as directed, shouldn't attract any undue attention.

Jason Greenberg Motamedi
27-May-2011, 08:58
... I have been repeatedly surprised in the last few years at how our society has changed regarding the public availability of photo related chemistry and lab supplies...

Oh how true this is, and this has really been in the past 10 years. In 2000, I walked into a lab supply store and bought 200g of iodine, 60g of bromine, and 500g of mercury, and no one batted an eye. Today, it is near impossible to do so without the proper forms and a commercial account. The lab stores tell me Both HI and HBr can be used to make meth, an so they won't sell it without the runaround. Of course, it is simple enough to make your own iodine or bromine from KI or KBr.

It is however easy enough to by a water distiller (http://www.amazon.com/Water-Distiller-Countertop-Enamel-Collection/dp/B00026F9F8), small ones are available locally or the web. Large alcohol stills might be more difficult, but I am pretty sure they are not illegal. There is a small shop near me that makes custom copper stills.

Spacer
27-May-2011, 09:18
...and of course, with the insane profitability of any banned substance, the "cooks" still manage, while we law abiding folks suffer.

I really hate for that to be my first post here...

goamules
27-May-2011, 12:26
Jason, it was Race Gentry who uses flashlamps. I contacted him not 2 months ago about an AGFA flashlamp I was thinking of buying. Video of him shooting one here: http://photokaboom.photogrowth.com/2008/07/race-gentry-a-vintage-photogra.html

And don't listen to the heavy breathers that say not to use it. If you feel like learning how to use it safely, it should be no more dangerous than shooting black powder muzzle loaders. In America we still have the right to the pursuit of happiness, and any FBI or ATF guy would have to really have a lot of time on his hands to even ask, and then would see it's just a hobby.

As a former OSHA trainer and muzzle loader, I did notice Race was doing a couple things less safely. First, you should pour the powder from your source bottle into a measuring ladle, then use that to fill the pan. Not fill directly from source bottle to pan, since the pan may have smoldering sparks from your previous shot. Having a bottle full of powder go off in your hand wouldn't be fun. Secondly, you should use a long handled paddle to spread the powder...not your fingers!

Jason Greenberg Motamedi
27-May-2011, 12:52
Jason, it was Race Gentry who used flashlamp.... I did notice Race was doing a couple things less safely...

"Less safely" is a lovely understatement. I can think of a few more apt adjectives.

BarryS
27-May-2011, 13:13
I found an old tin of flash powder in my father's box o' miscellaneous photo junk when I was a teen. He let me use some to take a photo in the basement and it's a little scary in an enclosed space, not least because of the acrid cloud of smoke produced. I'd advise using it only outside or when any kids/womenfolk/sensible people will be out of the house for a few hours.

Jack Dahlgren
27-May-2011, 13:27
Now I don't know if this is practical or not, but around the 4th of July in my town it is legal to buy and use safe and sane fireworks. A real bright one is called "Lightning Flash" and gives about five seconds of strobe light. Pack of six is under five dollars.

Possessing and using these kinds of flash, unmodified and as directed, shouldn't attract any undue attention.

There are many counties near your county which prohibit even "safe and sane" fireworks. Personally I don't see the point in sane fireworks and would much prefer the insane type, but nevertheless, using flash powder or those fireworks you describe in public is going to attract attention and some of that attention may be from public safety officials who tell you to cease and desist. They might actually cut you more slack with flash powder in a pan instead of some pre-manufactured "fireworks".

Flash bulbs and strobes were invented for a reason though, and elimination of uncertainty, faster response time, avoidance of choking smoke and increased safety have been reasons enough for the market to abandon flash powder as soon as it was possible. Going back to powder would be an exercise in fun, rather than almost anything else.

Bill Burk
27-May-2011, 14:01
Hi Jack,

Of course, I meant to use them exactly as designed, where permitted and allowed, and just "happen" to be taking pictures at the same time. For simplest example pictures of kids illuminated by sparklers.

Discoman
27-May-2011, 17:04
well, I checked the law, and you must buy the ingredients separately (unsafe to ship otherwise)
without a pyrotechnics license, the legal amount of EACH chemical that can be purchased each year is 16 ounces. this only applies to oxidizers such as the potassium perchlorate. the magnesium is unlimited purchase.

oh and fireworks use finely powdered aluminum instead of magnesium.
16oz of potassium perchlorate is good for 160 flashes. without a pyrotechnics license.

unitednuclear.com supplies both magnesium and potassium perchlorate
while I do find strobes incredibly useful, I find that they do their best work in the studio. I just haven't been as pleased by small portable strobes. nor really those studio monolights that have the light sensor sync thing.
I figured I might as well experiment with some older photographic processes.
and I was going to combine trying to make my own plates (liquid emulsion, maybe wetplate) and some really slow speed fine art film with the powder flash.

Doug Herta
27-May-2011, 18:11
You probably have your heart set on using flash powder, but don't be too quick to dismiss flashbulbs.

I just shot a large group with dual Graflex flashes on a Crown Graphic. Each of the Press 50 bulbs have a guide number of 440(!). Look into NOS (New Old Stock) flashbulbs on ebay. They run $1-2 USD each and the flash handles are available for reasonable prices now that all the Jedi Knights are refraining from turning every last one of them into a light saber.

goamules
27-May-2011, 19:51
Come on, let him have his fun!

What's the worse that could happen? This? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAES5SXUwVU&feature=player_embedded)

Discoman
2-Jun-2011, 13:52
You probably have your heart set on using flash powder, but don't be too quick to dismiss flashbulbs.

I just shot a large group with dual Graflex flashes on a Crown Graphic. Each of the Press 50 bulbs have a guide number of 440(!). Look into NOS (New Old Stock) flashbulbs on ebay. They run $1-2 USD each and the flash handles are available for reasonable prices now that all the Jedi Knights are refraining from turning every last one of them into a light saber.

I assume the press 50 is similar to the #5?
or are they more like the #5 focal plane?

and the star wars fans have stopped turning them into sabers? that is GREAT news.:D

heart set, not really. I mostly wanted to try something new and unusual, that would be reasonably cost effective over the medium screw bulbs.
besides, it just seemed to fit in well with slow speed art films. camera is going to be on the tripod for a while for each photo, might as well have a flash that I can hand-hold and move to where the light is best for the image without having cords running around.

Frank Petronio
2-Jun-2011, 13:58
Garrett - That was the best video I've seen in years, thank you!

Better Sense - Saw the flash tube question a few days back. If I cover the payments can I please be named a beneficiary on your life insurance?

Roger Cole
2-Jun-2011, 15:07
Come on, let him have his fun!

What's the worse that could happen? This? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAES5SXUwVU&feature=player_embedded)


Garrett - That was the best video I've seen in years, thank you!

Better Sense - Saw the flash tube question a few days back. If I cover the payments can I please be named a beneficiary on your life insurance?

Funny but obviously staged. The splice is obvious, and see the comments - among the usual inane ones on YouTube are the real observations about how the explosion changes his shirt, turns the lights back on, and leaves no black residue inside the aluminum foil, among other things.

I don't know if flash powder can be made and used safely or not, but it's an interesting thread. I HAVE shot black powder muzzle loaders, flintlocks using real black powder not Pyrodex, and am pretty comfortable doing that, though. I have a lot of friends in the steampunk community. I've thought about doing some portraits with just a "looks old" outfit of a modern wooden camera, tripod etc. Flash powder would be really cool, but I'm sure they'd accept bulbs as authentic enough.

BrianShaw
2-Jun-2011, 19:10
Flash powder would be really cool, but I'm sure they'd accept bulbs as authentic enough.

If you don't tell them they might not even question the authenticity of flash bulbs.

Nathan Potter
2-Jun-2011, 19:33
I used flash powder years ago in a home-made reflector in my back yard to photograph wild critters at night. Don't know why - just the challenge of doing something different. I used an aluminum kids snow saucer as a reflector and set off the charge electrically. Truly a brilliant flash with about 20 to 50 grams of powder if I recall correctly. Worked using a trip wire sometimes but mostly just a patient wait.

Here's the deal:

The powder is poured around a heater filament. The hot filament is a strand of galvanized window screening and actuated to glowing using a 45 volt small battery. Less than a half second or so to actuate.

Various powders were used, some as mentioned above. Most commonly I used Potassium permanganate (KMnO3) as the oxidizer and aluminum dust as the fuel. The aluminum dust was purified out of aluminum paint using gasoline as a solvent in a sort of allutriation (sp) column. The KMnO3 is finely ground in morter and pestle then mixed (with extreme care) due to the percussive nature of the mixture. I commonly stored the mixture til used.

Also used Ammonium nitrate with aluminum (I think this is a high explosive called Amitol) but flashes very quickly and is percussive also.

Using Potassium Nitrate yields a slower burn with aluminum dust but the mixture is not percussive as long as sulpher is not present.

However, as mentioned, these flash powders are potentially very dangerous, especially in larger quantities. Fanatical attention to safety needs to be maintained. I was raised on a farm where we employed black blasting powder for stump removal so had a history of safety in using explosive powders. Back then all these chemicals could be obtained from a local drugstore in Framingham MA. with no signature required.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

Discoman
5-Jun-2011, 10:19
here are the prices for new meggaflash bulbs:
Meggaflash PF300 case 48 bulbs $600.00 Screw Base
Meggaflash PF310 case 48 bulbs $740.00 Screw Base
Meggaflash PF330 case 24 bulbs $1,350.00 Screw Base

I heard my budget actually scream in agony as I saw these.

BetterSense
16-Jun-2011, 20:27
I just finished my first test with flash powder. My final 'dose' was 21g potassium perchlorate and 9g german dark fine aluminum powder, mixed by shaking in an ESD bag, and poured out in a pile on an old piece of floor tile. I set the pile off with a piece of homemade fuse. I don't have a flash meter, so I used a 35mm camera and tested it in the dark backyard compared to my SB-28 flash and old Novatron system. With a 10s bulb exposure in the mostly-dark, open-flash with the SB-28 lit my live oak tree up, barely. The novatron lit the tree up ok, but the background was still well, dark. Kind of what you'd expect of flash in the complete dark. Under the same conditions, the flash powder negative is so dense that in ordinary room light, it appears completely black. The flash powder is many stops brighter than my novatron, in other words. It also gives off a nice "WHOOMPH" sound and a mushroom cloud of smoke, and made my neighbors come out of their house wondering what was going on, but I was already mostly packed up by then. This is very interesting, because for things like spelunking, or some theoretical other need for a very bright flash, far from electricity, flash powder appears to totally work, and work well, and be very lightweight and fairly easy to aquire and mix up. Fiddly in the wind and rain, to be sure, but in an era without cheap flashbulbs, it's definitely a good option to have.


Oh, and never do this. It's dangerous.

Nathan Potter
17-Jun-2011, 09:11
Bettersense, good deal! Rather than the flash powder being brighter on the subject (mW/sq. cm.) is it not likely that the duration of the flash is longer (t) so it appears brighter than the SB-28? Using less powder or a bit of confinement, (careful), will shorten the time and so reduce the dose of light.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

BetterSense
17-Jun-2011, 09:27
I wasn't comparing the intensities; I have no way to do that. I was comparing the total flash. In other words, in the situations where I would use flash powder "appearing brighter on film" is equivalent to "being brighter". I can't see powder flash being the tool of choice in situations where you need to stop action. My next trick is rigging up a type of shutter sync, but I can't imaging being able to sync powder flash to a shutter unless you ran the shutter for at least 1/4s or something.

holmbāgu
17-Jun-2011, 11:30
This book gives an excellent account of the development of flash powders, and everything "flashy".

http://www.amazon.com/Photograph-Darkness-History-Underground-Photography/dp/0809316226/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261159356&sr=1-5

BetterSense, it'd be really cool to see the negs you speak of.

BetterSense
17-Jun-2011, 12:53
I'm just electronically challenged. I will try to scan them at work somehow.

BetterSense
17-Jun-2011, 15:42
Sorry this is so low-quality. It wasn't intended for any audience, the camera was just the only way I could think to compare the brightness of powder flash. It's the same film strip printed twice. The top exposure was printed with 4 stops more exposure on the enlarger than the bottom exposure.

This is also a great testament to the latitude of Tmax 400.

http://www.chazmiller.com/images/powderflash.jpg

goamules
18-Jun-2011, 03:49
I know you wanted a sustainable, DIY solution. But Here is a couple of cave photographer sites I stumbled upon a couple years ago, they have good luck with the old flashbulbs:
http://www.forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9849
http://www.darklightimagery.net/flashbulbs.html

holmbāgu
20-Jun-2011, 09:29
Ok, that is . . . awesome.

Something about that contact sheet is just so comical; like "third times a charm"... BOOM!

I mean, the light appears to have even jumped the frame.

BetterSense
20-Jun-2011, 09:35
I'm going to reshoot the test with a real camera when I get a chance. I'm still perfecting the ratios as well. By volume, the ratios of potassium perchlorate and aluminum powder I've been using are about equal...maybe 10% more perchlorate. So the flash in the contact sheet is about 1/3 of a 35mm canister full of aluminum and just slightly more than that of perchlorate.

I'm trying to rig something up to sync the flash with a shutter...I found that you can buy flashpots that magicians use to create puffs of smoke...I don't know if they would work well or not. I'm probably using a bit more powder than stage magicians use.

http://www.nightmarefactory.com/cgi-bin/shopper?keywords=flash%20AND%20pot&search=action