Appropriate camera for Petzval and Verito type lenses

[psychoanalyst]

Hello,

I am very new to the world of LF photography, having taken the DSLR route into photography.

I am just about doing the groundwork to purchase my first LF camera and thought I'd drop in here and ask for some advice for newbies.

I was initially sure that I wanted to buy the Speed Graphic. Not only because its fairly cheap, but it has a focal plane shutter that would allow me to mount barrel lenses, which is essential for me.

The Petzval and the Verito are must buys on my list, but I don't want to end up buying the camera and then finding that the coverage is not enough to exploit the distinct Petzval swirlies....

So, the question I have is to whether get the 4x5 Speed Graphic or get an 8x10? Are there Petzval lenses that would give me the desired results with 4x5?

Thanks a lot!

Avi

[Mark Sawyer]

To get the "swirlies" out of a Petzval on 4x5, you'll want a shorter one, 3 to 4 inches in focal length I'd guess, and f/4 or (preferably) faster. These are reasonably common as Gem lenses and small magic lantern lenses, and are (usually) cheaper than the larger Petzvals.

If you want swirl from a Verito on 4x5, you'll have to find a small one, about 5 inches in focal length. These are pretty rare and expensive. An 8 3/4 inch Verito would be a lovely portrait lens on 4x5, but wouldn't swirl, if that's what you're looking for.

[Lachlan 717]

Make sure you consider how you will make exposures.

THese old lenses are fundamentally difficult to mount into modern shutters. As such, you will need to research alternatives.

Research Packard shutters, Sinar auto aperture shutters and good old black cap methods.

[Jim Graves]

A Speed Graphic is a great way to start ... and there are a lot of ways to get the soft focus look ... and even swirlies in 4x5 ... and it is WAY cheaper than starting out in 8x10 trying to figure out what you are doing and what you like.

My advice ... find a nice Speed Graphic and make a magnifying glass lens for it (see below) ... then when you have a little better idea what you want ... PM (Personal Message) Jim Galli (Link (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=42963)) and tell him what you're interested in ... he'll find the lens you need.

Here are a couple of photos made with a 4x5 Speed Graphic with a 49 cent magnifying lens given to me by Mark Sawyer ... I cut the handle off and glued it into a Speed Graphic lens board:

http://home.comcast.net/~mary.j.graves/Bench under the Willow - z web.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~mary.j.graves/Willwebcopy.jpg

And here is a photo of the lens used:

http://home.comcast.net/~mary.j.graves/Mag Glass.jpg

[Ole Tjugen]

Many other lenses exhibit swirl or other aberrations when used far beyond their design limit.

Here's a case of "negative swirl", shot with a lens designed for just that, on a Speed Graphic:
http://www.apug.org/gallery1/files/1/2/4/coma.jpg

[psychoanalyst]

Guys,

Thats great advice! Thanks a lot to all.

I think I am going to take Jim's suggestion and get the Speed Graphic after all. I was reluctant to buy the 8x10 anyways.

But I will look out for the shorter Petzvals and Veritos.

Avi

[psychoanalyst]

To get the "swirlies" out of a Petzval on 4x5, you'll want a shorter one, 3 to 4 inches in focal length I'd guess, and f/4 or (preferably) faster. These are reasonably common as Gem lenses and small magic lantern lenses, and are (usually) cheaper than the larger Petzvals.

If you want swirl from a Verito on 4x5, you'll have to find a small one, about 5 inches in focal length. These are pretty rare and expensive. An 8 3/4 inch Verito would be a lovely portrait lens on 4x5, but wouldn't swirl, if that's what you're looking for.

Mark: I forgot to mention and I guess I should been more clear in my original post. I am looking at the Petzval for the swirlies and the Verito for a nice soft focus. I am not looking for swirlies from the Verito.

Thanks!

Avi

[Mark Sawyer]

Then I'd suggest the 8 3/4 or 9 inch Verito, although the Speed Graphic has a bellows extension of about 13", which may not be enough for close portrait work. Make sure it has a good bellows, as pinhole lightleaks are at their worst with the bellows stretch out. The shorter (9 inch and less) Veritos are often available in shutters, and there are shutter options for smaller Petzvals, so you might consider a 4x5 monorail with a longer bellows. The focal plane shutter is a great advantage for a Speed Graphic, but the short bellows can be a drawback.

[jb7]

I have no idea why my Petzvals have much smaller image circles than everyone else.
Are Petzvals the only lenses whose coverage is calculated much closer than infinity?

I have a 5" Petzval, a Magic Lantern Lens, that just about lights up 4x5 when focused at less than a meter.

Shorter Petzvals need to be focused closer to avoid vignetting.
Well, mine do, a 3" or 4" will leave a large unexposed circle around the edge.

An 11" Petzval, a fast Voigtlander taking lens, will only cover 5x7 at infinity, yet I often see shorter Petzvals advertised as covering 8x10- How can this be?

Of course, in order to get the swirl, it is necessary to focus on something up close, and place a contrasty pattern in the out of focus areas-
but that doesn't mean that you're limited to really short lenses for your chosen format-
it's more about how you choose to use them, and what you choose to represent.

[Scott Davis]

Joseph- the reason the 11" Voigtlander is listed as only covering 5x7 is that is the format it was originally intended to be used on. The "coverage" is the sharp circle. The lens illuminates a much bigger plate and will swirl like the dickens at the edges on an 8x10.

[jb7]

Thanks Scott- The lens isn't marked for any size, in fact, it's only engraved with names, location, and serial number- I had to measure the focal length myself.

It does illuminate a bit more with the hood removed, but not much.
The cutoff is still pretty abrupt.

Here's an example, shot from a couple of meters away-

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1406/4720085877_f1949256a8_z.jpg

The lens will only illuminate 8x10 at distances of less than about a meter-

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2643/4186883623_01dab1a39c_z.jpg

Both of these 8x10, btw...

All my other Petzvals are between 4" to 7", and all display around the same angle of coverage, or illumination-

I'm not really interested in emphasizing the swirl myself, although the effect is still there...

[eddie]

The trouble u will have is lens board size. Most petzvals that "cover" a given format are big and require large lens boards. Most petzvals that cover will not fit on a speed board.

Buy an 8x10. U will end up getting one in the long run. Get a reducing back. Use 4x5 and 5x7. All the lenses you will want to use to cover will work great. But u will have the SAme problem if u try to mount an 810 petzval lens on it...:)

[Lachlan 717]

Perhaps look at the Shen Hao XPO.

It was designed to accept Sinar lensboards and Sinar shutters.

As such, you kill 2 stones with the one bird: you get a large lensboard and you sort out the exposure issue inherent with barrel lenses.

[Mark Sawyer]

Perhaps look at the Shen Hao XPO.

It was designed to accept Sinar lensboards and Sinar shutters.

As such, you kill 2 stones with the one bird: you get a large lensboard and you sort out the exposure issue inherent with barrel lenses.

But you also kill the budget... :)

[Mark Sawyer]

The trouble u will have is lens board size. Most petzvals that "cover" a given format are big and require large lens boards. Most petzvals that cover will not fit on a speed board.

Buy an 8x10. U will end up getting one in the long run. Get a reducing back. Use 4x5 and 5x7. All the lenses you will want to use to cover will work great. But u will have the SAme problem if u try to mount an 810 petzval lens on it...:)

On a 4x5 and wanting swirl, I think he'd be okay since that would be a pretty short Petzval, which is small enough to fit, even with a bright aperture. But you're right,the Speed Graphic boards are small, and coupled with the short bellows, the only thing left to recommend it is the shutter, and there are ways around that.

I'd still say a cheap 4x5 monorail, and find a front-mountable shutter adaptable to both lenses. That could add the advantage of flash-synch, too, though I don't know if that's a concern.

[Lachlan 717]

But you also kill the budget... :)

None mentioned!

[Mark Sawyer]

I was initially sure that I wanted to buy the Speed Graphic. Not only because its fairly cheap...

I inferred from the above, but Petzvals and Veritos aren't cheap, so point taken!

[Richard Rankin]

I have a petzval in my lending 'library' which should be back in a few weeks. Not much good for swirls on something as small as a Speed Graphic, though. Richard

Description:
4x5/5x7/6 1/2 x 8 1/2: petzval with about 8" focal length, 7 1/2" image circle, around f5. Has flange to use and the focus knob thing. Would work on 8x10 if you want to capture the entire image circle

[psychoanalyst]

Cost is going to be an issue. But I am graduating with my PhD this year...so I might have a reason to spend a reasonable amount of money. Assuming I make it to a job!

The Verito, as you mentioned is expensive, so I am willing to wait on that one. I will concentrate on the Petzval for now.

I gather that the Speed Graphic may not cut it if I want the Petzval for its swirlies...so I am guessing its better to rule it out? Whats a good 8x10 to start with?

I want a basic, minimal cost setup, since I am very new to all this and want to experiment with something cheap to make sure that I like it enough to spend more on it.

Thanks so much for all the information!

Avi