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View Full Version : Bellows design--what is possible?



Noah A
16-May-2011, 18:38
I've been happily shooting with my Linhof Technikardan 45S for a few months now. It's a wonderful camera. The bellows are wonderful too, but I'm constantly switching between the standard bellows and the bag bellows. This gets tedious when experimenting with different compositions or trying to get a few shots done in a very small window of good light.

I do around 90% of my work with a 115mm Grandagon and a 210 Apo-Sironar-S. The 115 focuses fine with the standard bellows but it doesn't offer much movement. Of course it works great with the bag. The 210 needs the standard bellows.

I know some cameras--the Toyo VX125 comes to mind--have bellows that are said to work well with both wide lenses and normal lenses. I've never used one but I've heard claims that you can max out the rise even with a 90mm lens, and that you can also focus a 210 with the same standard bellows. I know the canham bellows are also said to be very flexible and durable.

I'm wondering if such a bellows could be made for the TK45S (or other cameras for that matter). I'd give up some length if in return I could get more flexibility on the wide end. If I could focus the 210mm and get 60mm of front rise with the 115 that would be amazing.

I know how good the stock TK bellows are, they're amazing actually, especially the bag bellows which is easily the best I've used. And I know LF is supposed to be slow and contemplative and all that...so I don't need any lectures on why I'm trying to shoot too fast. But I know the way I shoot and if a universal bellows could be made for the TK it would be a dream for me.

So--Is it possible?

el french
16-May-2011, 19:01
It's pretty easy to make bag bellows. Most fabric stores carry blackout cloth that, if nothing else, will allow you to test a design for a slightly longer bag bellows.

Richard Wasserman
16-May-2011, 19:08
Noah,

You might contact Custom Bellows in the UK. http://www.custombellows.co.uk/index.html I believe they make Keith Canham's universal bellows, which are quite wonderful. I wonder if they can do something similar for you?

GPS
17-May-2011, 04:09
It's pretty easy to make bag bellows. Most fabric stores carry blackout cloth that, if nothing else, will allow you to test a design for a slightly longer bag bellows.

Exactly. Especially if you know (as the OP does) that such a bellows is possible for other cameras too. Thin leather used for leather clothes is the material to use.

Noah A
17-May-2011, 04:18
Richard--thanks for the suggestion. I emailed them last night and they got back to me already. They said they were tooled up for the standard TK bellows so all they could do would be to put a bag on the front of a standard bellows. It's not what I had in mind though and as they admit it will probably sag.

I wasn't originally thinking of a bag bellows, really I wanted something more like the toyo VX125 bellows or the arca field bellows--one with larger pleats and I guess a very flexible material. But maybe a bag would be the answer. Really it doesn't have to be too long--I'd be pretty happy if I could use it for my wides and then focus my 210 down to 5 meters or so.

rdenney
17-May-2011, 06:04
Take a look at the Sinar Wide Angle Bellows 2. I've inserted a picture from the Capture, Scan, Print website (click here for their accessories page (http://www.capturescanprint.com/sinar_accessories.html)--not an endorsement--I've never bought from them but they had a clear picture).

http://www.capturescanprint.com/_pics/wa_bell2.jpg

The extra pleat does a couple of things. One is that it takes the inside edge of the inner fold and pulls it out of the way so it won't jam between the standards. This bellows makes using a 47mm lens on a flat board effortless with a Sinar. But, pursuant to your requirements, it also unfolds enough to accommodate a 210 easily, though probably not for really close focusing. It will definitely accommodate longer lenses than their standard bag bellows, which I also have. Adding the second pleat makes all the difference at both ends.

These are made of soft leather, while the standard bag bellows are a stiffer fabric. For a person willing to sew leather, they should not be particularly difficult.

Rick "who has played the same game" Denney

BrianShaw
17-May-2011, 06:21
I think I understand your desire. Wouldn't something like that be ideal???? I hate changing from standard to bag bellows on my camera, even though it is rather simple thing to do.

Here's my comment, albeit not too supportive. If there were a good design for such a "hybrid bellows" that was both cost-effective to make and truly utilitarian, it would already be in common usage. I suspect the problem is harder than we may think!

BrianShaw
17-May-2011, 06:23
Take a look at the ...


That looks very similar to my Cambo bag bellows, which also has pleats. The Cambo came in two types (you might know that already): leather (pleather?) and cloth. I don't think the Cambo of similar design will expand to support even a normal FL lens, let alone a 210!

Noah A
17-May-2011, 06:29
The folks at Custom Bellows said that the frames in the TK are too small to make a bellows with larger, more flexible pleats like the Toyo VX125 bellows...in case anyone else is wondering.

Rick--a few minutes a go I came across the panfield camera, which uses a double-pleated bellows (made of neoprene!) for wide and normal lenses up to 210mm. I'd prefer leather, but it's an interesting design.

I'll have to talk to my wife about sewing machine lessons...can you even sew leather on a machine? I'm clueless.

But I really like the idea of a double-pleated bag bellows. As long as I can focus my wides with lots of movement and my 210 at around 5 meters, that would be perfect. Thanks so much for the suggestion Rick.

Bob Salomon
17-May-2011, 06:30
One of the major features of the TK is that it is a folding monorail camera. In order for the 45 version to do that it uses a double tapered design bellows. What you are trying to do would eliminate that feature.

A universal bellows is nothing new. Linhof has used one on the Technika 45 for over half a century. The bellows on any 45 Technika IV or later can handle 45mm and longer lenses with full movements. If that is the most important feature for you why not switch to the Master Technika 3000? Then you would have a folding camera with a good amount of bellows and movement and a single bellows.

BrianShaw
17-May-2011, 06:32
A universal bellows is nothing new. ...

I stand corrected and will now go back to bed. :o

Noah A
17-May-2011, 06:38
... If there were a good design for such a "hybrid bellows" that was both cost-effective to make and truly utilitarian, it would already be in common usage. I suspect the problem is harder than we may think!

Well, the Sinar one would be perfect if I shot with a Sinar...and the Toyo VX125 bellows fits the bill. The Arca field bellows might as well. So there are actually plenty of options, just not for my particular camera.

It might not have a wide appeal because you'd be giving up quite a lot with the bellows I'm proposing...for instance focusing a 150-210 for close-ups, etc. Also, if you're not doing a rather specific type of work (architecture and urban landscape) you may not need the flexibility with wides.

Noah A
17-May-2011, 06:52
One of the major features of the TK is that it is a folding monorail camera. In order for the 45 version to do that it uses a double tapered design bellows. What you are trying to do would eliminate that feature.

A universal bellows is nothing new. Linhof has used one on the Technika 45 for over half a century. The bellows on any 45 Technika IV or later can handle 45mm and longer lenses with full movements. If that is the most important feature for you why not switch to the Master Technika 3000? Then you would have a folding camera with a good amount of bellows and movement and a single bellows.

The problem is, I end up taking the bellows on and off so much that I end up storing the camera without the bellows anyway. Not because there is any problem folding the camera with the bellows, which is very easy and fast, but because I never know which lens (and therefore which bellows) I'll be using next when I pack up the camera.

So a double pleated bellows might not fold on the camera, but that's largely irrelevant for me. I may be wrong, but I thought it wasn't recommended to fold the camera with the linhof bag bellows anyway.

I highly doubt that the Master Technika can offer the movements of a TK with a bag bellows. My 115 grandagon can offer a huge amount of front rise, something on the order of 80mm. While I don't normally use all of that, I often use quite a bit and I have trouble believing that a bellows as small as the MT's will suffice.

Even if it would, I tried working with a folding field camera and it didn't fit my needs at all. I don't want to deal with dropping the bed to get front fall (or worse yet flipping the camera). And it's irrelevant since I can't afford an MT3000 anyway.

Bob Salomon
17-May-2011, 07:02
Noah,

You are only using a 115mm lens. The standard bellows on the TK allows some movements with a 90mm lens. Which movements are you finding that you can not do with the 115mm? Direct or indirect ones? Or a combination of both?

GPS
17-May-2011, 07:10
...
I'll have to talk to my wife about sewing machine lessons...can you even sew leather on a machine? I'm clueless.

...

You can forget about sewing lessons. This kind of bellows you can easily glue with contact cement instead of sewing it. I have made my bag bellows in that way and they work flawlessly.

Bob Salomon
17-May-2011, 07:13
The problem is, I end up taking the bellows on and off so much that I end up storing the camera without the bellows anyway. Not because there is any problem folding the camera with the bellows, which is very easy and fast, but because I never know which lens (and therefore which bellows) I'll be using next when I pack up the camera.

So a double pleated bellows might not fold on the camera, but that's largely irrelevant for me. I may be wrong, but I thought it wasn't recommended to fold the camera with the linhof bag bellows anyway.



Here is the link to the current TKs instruction manual:

http://www.linhof.de/download/Technikardan_manual.pdf

Please download and read it. The relevent pages are 9 and 10. It specifically states that the W/A bellows is used with 90mm and shorter lenses. The normal bellows should work for the 110mm and longer lenses.

There is no reference in the instructions that you can not fold the camera with the W/A bellows in place. Folding a 45 TK with a W/A bellows would be exactly the same as folding the 23 version with the normal bellows. The 23 version does not have a tapered or double tapered design. Yet it still can fold.

Please note, this instruction book still pictures and describes the Prontor Professional TK shutter system. This has not been available for many years.

Ari
17-May-2011, 07:20
What about grafting the Toyo Uni bellows onto TK frames?
Finding a spare set of frames might be difficult, but once found, Pliobond will take care of the gluing part.

engl
17-May-2011, 07:21
Would something like the "universal bellows" used by for for example Ebony/Phillips/Chamonix perhaps be enough for your needs?

I am waiting for my Chamonix 4x5, but since people on this forum has said it allows good movements with a 75mm and maxed rise with a 90mm, it seems reasonable that it should offer great movements with a 115mm. It should be possible to glue those onto frames fitting the 45S. Hopefully someone else can give you more information about such bellows in real use.

Noah A
17-May-2011, 07:27
Noah,

You are only using a 115mm lens. The standard bellows on the TK allows some movements with a 90mm lens. Which movements are you finding that you can not do with the 115mm? Direct or indirect ones? Or a combination of both?

I use a 90 too but less frequently so I wouldn't mind changing to the bag for that...

However, with the 115 focused at normal distances (for me that's often close to infinity) I can get 20mm of front direct rise. Perhaps 25mm but at that point the bellows is flexing the rear standard. Any more would involve really stressing the bellows, which I don't wish to do considering the price of a replacement.

The lens itself can easily max out the 50mm of direct rise, and I do use that much fairly often with the bag bellows.

GPS--Thanks, glue I can handle. I assume your bellows is the thin layer you recommended...is it lined with something else like blackout cloth?

GPS
17-May-2011, 08:36
...
GPS--Thanks, glue I can handle. I assume your bellows is the thin layer you recommended...is it lined with something else like blackout cloth?

My bag bellows is made of leather sold for making clothes - thin black leather only, no lining.
Make yourself a paper model first to see how it will behave. Little experimenting will give you the ideal shape and dimension.

Noah A
17-May-2011, 08:51
My bag bellows is made of leather sold for making clothes - thin black leather only, no lining.
Make yourself a paper model first to see how it will behave. Little experimenting will give you the ideal shape and dimension.

Thanks for the info. I just may try it.

GPS
17-May-2011, 09:24
Thanks for the info. I just may try it.

It's well worth the effort. By making your personalized bag bellows you can accommodate exactly your lenses you want to use and still have the "official" bellows at hand. You give a new life to your camera for very little money.

Ash
17-May-2011, 10:37
Not sure if anyone has piped up about sewing leather. You can sew it on a traditional Singer, but modern motorised machines (consumer level) will buckle under the pressure. You'll need thicker needles as well. If you have an overlocker or industrial sewer you'll be ok.

Noah A
26-May-2011, 08:11
My bag bellows is made of leather sold for making clothes - thin black leather only, no lining.
Make yourself a paper model first to see how it will behave. Little experimenting will give you the ideal shape and dimension.

Where did you get the leather? Is it genuine or imitation? I'm finding lots of imitation leather, small scraps of real leather or at the other extreme complete hides.

I just ordered some bellows frames so I'm committed at this point. I'll get some scrap fabric to make a model. I tried paper but it seems to be a bit stiff and so I can't tell how much movement I'll get.

Bob Salomon
26-May-2011, 08:29
Not sure if anyone has piped up about sewing leather. You can sew it on a traditional Singer, but modern motorised machines (consumer level) will buckle under the pressure. You'll need thicker needles as well. If you have an overlocker or industrial sewer you'll be ok.

Perhaps. Each stitch makes a hole on each piece sewn together. If any of those holes are not properly sealed they can be a light leak. As the bellows moves the threads can wear away any sealent or enlarge the holes. So it isn't just a matter of sewing the pieces together.

Richard Wasserman
26-May-2011, 09:24
Where did you get the leather? Is it genuine or imitation? I'm finding lots of imitation leather, small scraps of real leather or at the other extreme complete hides.

How about ostrich leather?

http://www.floeckscountry.com/catalog/Ostrich_Leather-7-1.html

GPS
26-May-2011, 10:50
Where did you get the leather? Is it genuine or imitation? I'm finding lots of imitation leather, small scraps of real leather or at the other extreme complete hides.

...

I got it in a normal shop selling fabrics for making clothes. It was genuine black leather (for fashion cloths, trousers etc.) very cheap, quite a big piece of it (a complete hide as you put it). In NY City, somewhere down on Broadway for a few bucks. Perfectly light tight and nicely lightweight too.

GPS
26-May-2011, 13:46
...

I just ordered some bellows frames so I'm committed at this point. I'll get some scrap fabric to make a model. I tried paper but it seems to be a bit stiff and so I can't tell how much movement I'll get.

You'll get at least as much movements that doesn't tear the paper or more. But if paper annoys you try a model made of plastic bag or similar. It's fun to play with it trying original shapes. You can make the pleats wider with a little flat top on them etc.

Noah A
26-May-2011, 14:38
Good point about the paper. I'll try it. I may as well wait until my frames arrive to really get started.

And thanks for the leather info. Here in Philly we have a street full of fabric stores, but if they don't have leather I'll be in NY in a few weeks so I can look there.

speedfreak
28-May-2011, 09:43
I'm eager to see what you come up with as I'm in the same boat with my technikardan. My standard bellows is full of leaks and I will, at some point, cannibalize it for it's frames, but for now it works by covering it with the dark cloth. These double pleated bag bellow seem easy enough to make. I would imagine the hardest part would be finding leather thick enough no to sag, but flexible enough make all the movements. Will contact cement hold up when the bellows is at full exention? Mabee the seams could be reinforced by a few hand stitches if need be?

MMELVIS
29-May-2011, 15:25
Perhaps. Each stitch makes a hole on each piece sewn together. If any of those holes are not properly sealed they can be a light leak. As the bellows moves the threads can wear away any sealent or enlarge the holes. So it isn't just a matter of sewing the pieces together.

Good point about leather, just be sure to get the proper needle for sewing leather. Leather needles are designed to cut the leather. Use a large stitch instead of smaller stitches. If you are not up to sewing find a local Harley shop and they will know someone who knows how to sew leather.

Noah A
29-May-2011, 16:15
Regarding the stitching issues, I'm thinking of generally following this idea (link in german, but there are pictures):

http://www.foto-net.de/net/dyo/gross_ww.html

This puts the stitches on a sort of standing seam inside of the bellows. Obviously one would need to size the bellows so that the small standing seam doesn't interfere in the light path. However it might serve as a bit of a stiffener.

Still waiting on the frames so I haven't made a real mockup yet.

Bob Salomon
29-May-2011, 17:05
I'm eager to see what you come up with as I'm in the same boat with my technikardan. My standard bellows is full of leaks and I will, at some point, cannibalize it for it's frames, but for now it works by covering it with the dark cloth. These double pleated bag bellow seem easy enough to make. I would imagine the hardest part would be finding leather thick enough no to sag, but flexible enough make all the movements. Will contact cement hold up when the bellows is at full exention? Mabee the seams could be reinforced by a few hand stitches if need be?

A bit more to the Linhof one then that. There is a spring wire inside the bag bellows, in the middle, so it doesn't sag and get into the lens path.

mortensen
1-Jun-2011, 14:06
I assume you've already seen these two:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=45345&highlight=arca+irish
... and the ultimate bellowsguide (they say):
http://www.jbhphoto.com/articles/bellows/bbuildingjbh2008.pdf

I'm looking forward to see what solution you'll come up with - I'll hopefully be in the same boat in a few weeks from now. good luck!
btw a neoprene bellows sound really cool, actually

Noah A
1-Jun-2011, 18:55
Thanks for those links.

After a few more emails it seems like Custom Bellows can make a hybrid/universal bellows, with pleats in the back and a bag in the front. They say it should be no problem to make one that could work with wides and also my 210mm. I'd have to provide the frames.

I may go that route instead of doing it myself, though I'm still undecided. My frames haven't arrived from Marflex yet so once they do I'll either make my prototype or send the frames off for a UK vacation.

I'll post my experiences either way but since I had previously reported that Custom Bellows said they couldn't make a universal bellows, I wanted to provide an update.

mortensen
2-Jun-2011, 02:52
kool! my original plan was to have pros to do the work for my future pro camera, ie. custombellows. how much do they charge approximately for that kind of work? maybe it would be a good idea to have a spare sample made instantly for backup?