sinar f1 compatibility issues

[alaric]

Hello. Im new to large format photography and currently in the process of acquiring my first camera. I live in a place where large format cameras are very rare but fortunately I found a good deal with a sinar F1. However, it only comes with one film back so I have to purchase more film holders but these are not available here in the Philippines. Anyway, I'm looking at KEH and I was just wondering if the fidelity, riteway, and lisco 4x5 film holders are compatible with the sinar F1. Also, what film back for 120 film can you suggest? Thanks.

[mdm]

yes they are. maybe a sinar 120 film back would be best.

[rdenney]

Hello. Im new to large format photography and currently in the process of acquiring my first camera. I live in a place where large format cameras are very rare but fortunately I found a good deal with a sinar F1. However, it only comes with one film back so I have to purchase more film holders but these are not available here in the Philippines. Anyway, I'm looking at KEH and I was just wondering if the fidelity, riteway, and lisco 4x5 film holders are compatible with the sinar F1. Also, what film back for 120 film can you suggest? Thanks.

All of the standard 4x5 film holders will work fine in a Sinar.

The Sinar has an "International" back, which will accept Graflok accessories without issue. That includes all roll film holders intended for 4x5 cameras with a Graflok or International back. There are many types, but I have a Wista 6x9, a Shen-Hao 6x12, and a Sinar Vario. These are three different types. The Wista uses an insert with a clamshell cover and has a lever advance. The Shen-Hao use a red window for film advance, and is a budget model designed for simplicity. The Vario is a high-end holder that will slide under the ground-glass frame, or install using the Graflok locking tabs. It positions the film to one side to make sliding under the ground glass possible, similarly to the Calumet/Cambo film holder models. Those will work, too.

The Sinar Vario can be set to any format from 6x4.5 to 6x12 between rolls, and the Sinar Zoom can be set to any format between shots. Sinar also made fixed-format roll-film holders in 6x6, 6x7, 6x9, and 6x12, but these seem to be rather scarce.

If you only want 6x7 or 6x9, the Wista/Horseman type are probably the best and cheapest. For 6x12, the Shen-Hao is the cheapest alternative, but Horseman made a good one that is not all that much more on the used market. The Sinar holders are more, but still a fraction of what they cost new.

I'm not a fan of the Graflex holders, though they will work. The problem is that they are often assembled from mixed and matched parts that don't work together properly or that are worn out. I would only buy one that I could inspect. I have a Graflex 6x7 holder that taught me that lesson.

I did not mention the excellent Linhof holders because my Linhof lore is lacking, but they also make holders in all the formats, and they will all work on your Sinar.

Rick "suggesting there is very little of anything that won't work on a Sinar" Denney

[I Am Luna]

Off topic, but what part of the PI?

[alaric]

Thank you all for the replies. At least now I know which film holders to buy. Another question if you don't mind, which lens boards would you recommend for this system? I'm considering getting a lens in the range of 150-210mm. I'm really lost with the terms on KEH. Don't know what size of lens board will fit my system and which lens would fit the lens board I would choose. Are they all compatible, meaning I just pick a lens board that would fit the front standard then pick a lens and the lens mount is standard for all types of lenses and boards?

[sanchi heuser]

Thank you all for the replies. At least now I know which film holders to buy. Another question if you don't mind, which lens boards would you recommend for this system? I'm considering getting a lens in the range of 150-210mm. I'm really lost with the terms on KEH. Don't know what size of lens board will fit my system and which lens would fit the lens board I would choose. Are they all compatible, meaning I just pick a lens board that would fit the front standard then pick a lens and the lens mount is standard for all types of lenses and boards?


Hi,

There will be a lot of used ones in the different marketplaces.
Sometimes sellers describe as "Sinar Horseman" or "fits Sinar" or just
non originals as "Sinar" .
I would ask only for original Sinar which have 'Sinar' written on the top
and on the backside four precise grounded support points.

Here you can see different types of lens boards including the sinar lens board which you'll
need for the Sinar F1, just scroll down:
http://www.skgrimes.com/lensboards/index.htm

Here another link from an ebay offer just for demonstration where you can see pics of the backside.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ORIGINAL-SINAR-LENSBOARD-COPAL-1-SAVE-/220649833192?pt=US_Lens_Boards&hash=item335fc142e8

The four silvery angles in each corner are these precision points.
Without these it's not original!
And why buy an remake with less quality for the same price?



Another point is the hole size.
It's dependent from the shutter size, most common are:
Copal 0 (hole diameter 34,6 mm)
Copal 1 (hole diameter 41,6 mm)
and Copal 3 (hole diameter 65,0 mm)

That means you have to know what shutter size your lens is, mostly it is written on the shutter.
Then you can mount your lens to your board.
The mounting itself isn't difficult but has to made very carefully to avoid damage of glasses and the threads.
I'd very strongly recommend a special tool for the mounting which will cost about $15-20
but it's way safer than other "solutions".


Andi

[sanchi heuser]

I used for lens mounting a tool similar to this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Spanner-Wrench-Copal-Compur-Prontor-0-1-3-Shutter-/280625858422?_trksid=p3286.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D3%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D9168539984288396324

[rdenney]

Thank you all for the replies. At least now I know which film holders to buy. Another question if you don't mind, which lens boards would you recommend for this system? I'm considering getting a lens in the range of 150-210mm. I'm really lost with the terms on KEH. Don't know what size of lens board will fit my system and which lens would fit the lens board I would choose. Are they all compatible, meaning I just pick a lens board that would fit the front standard then pick a lens and the lens mount is standard for all types of lenses and boards?

Any lens board marked "Sinar" will fit any Sinar view camera. They are all the same, going back to the 1947 Norma. Some Horseman boards are the same.

The question is the size of the hole. KEH lists them by hole diameter, measured with a ruler, apparently. 25 or 26 holes fit a Compur 00, 34 or 35 holes fit a Compur/Copal 0, 41 or 42 holes fit a Compur/Copal 1, and 65ish holes fit a Copal 3. Their measurements vary over several millimeters, but in the nominal sizes, the holes were intended for those shutters. There are other shutter sizes, but these are the most common sizes of shutters mounted in Sinar boards. If the board has a hole the right size, any lens with that size shutter will work on the board.

Rick "who has used Horseman and Sinar boards with no complaint" Denney

[alaric]

this is what confuses me.. the different types of boards listed in this site: http://www.skgrimes.com/lensboards/index.htm. which board would fit the sinar f1? the arca swiss 110, 140, or 171?

[Bob McCarthy]

this is what confuses me.. the different types of boards listed in this site: http://www.skgrimes.com/lensboards/index.htm. which board would fit the sinar f1? the arca swiss 110, 140, or 171?

Go down this list by 20 or 30 items and you will find a Sinar board. They can be found used in good shape for 30-40 dollars for common ones. Original Sinar boards are more expensive, knockoffs are cheaper.

Arca Swiss boards fit Arca Swiss cameras.

Bob

[alaric]

oh, im sorry. my bad. anyway, when mounting the lens, does it thread to the board or there is some sort of retaining ring that sandwiches the board just like in beseler enlarger lenses?

[rdenney]

oh, im sorry. my bad. anyway, when mounting the lens, does it thread to the board or there is some sort of retaining ring that sandwiches the board just like in beseler enlarger lenses?

It's the latter. The board has a hole. If it's the sort of lens that needs to mount using threads (and these are uncommon for the sorts of lenses you will be using), the threads are provided by a ring called a flange that is mounted onto the board with screws. SK Grimes provides this service, for example. Most modern view camera lenses mount by extending through a hole of about the right size and being held in place using a retaining ring. Make sure the lenses you buy include the retaining ring, though these can be replaced for a few dozen dollars.

That much of a lens board is specific to the shutter, not the camera manufacturer. The hole for a Copal No. 1 shutter, for example, will be the same across Arca-Swiss, Sinar, Linhof, Cambo, Toyo, and so on.

The outer size and shape of the lens board is, on the other hand, specific to each manufacturer. Horseman has made cameras that are compatible with Sinar, so some Horseman boards will on a Sinar. All boards marked "Sinar" will work on your F1--all Sinar cameras use the same lens boards.

Many camera manufacturers, particularly those who make field cameras, have adopted the Linhof Technika lens boards. But the other makers of monorail view cameras each have their own design, for the most part.

So, at a store like KEH, look for "Sinar" and a hole the right size for the shutter you want to mount in it. If you buy a 210mm Rodenstock Sironar-N or Schneider Symmar-S mounted in a Copal No. 1 shutter, you'll need a board that says "Sinar 41 hole" or "Sinar 42 hole" from a place like KEH. On ebay, it will probably say something like "Sinar lens board for Copal No. 1 shutter". Or, if you are lucky, you'll find a lens advertised like this: "Rodenstock Sironar-N with Copal No. 1 shutter mounted on a Sinar board". That one will pop right on your camera with no issue.

(There is one type of Sinar board you must avoid. These are labeled "DBS" and often had a lens mounted in them with a shutter-shaped device that is not, in fact, a shutter. These are intended to be used with the Sinar external shutter, and will not be usable with lenses that have shutters built into them already. DBS-mounted lenses are often cheap, but don't be sucked in--the camera-mounted shutter you'll need to use them is itself many hundreds of dollars. And it's weight and complication you don't need. Thus, avoid lenses described as "Sinar Sinaron 210/5.6 in DBS mount." Look for lenses that have Compur or Copal shutters--which are used on nearly all relatively modern German and Japanese lenses--and flat boards that have a simple hole in them of the right size.)

Rick "the choices are simple once you've pushed past the relatively rare exceptions" Denney

[sanchi heuser]

Video "How To Mount A View Camera Lens"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JjzwjO5ZSE

A classical information about lenses where you can read the shutter size (shtr size):
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF4x5in.html

[clegaspi]

Alaric,

From where are you in the Philippines? I have the Sinar F1 and P2 and a number of lenses...maybe I can help you with your queries.

[senderoaburrido]

I have a Sinar compatibility question:
Are Sinar and Cambo back analogous? Or Sinar/Toyo? I'm looking at Chinese handheld cameras that are pre-built for various back types, and they only sell Sinar, Toyo and Horseman versions. I'm wondering if the Cambo back I currently use on on my 4x5 monorail is compatible with any of these.

[RSalles]

Sendero,

Even not being 100% sure I don't think so, as the rail connection between Sinar and Toyo model being quite different and visually not interchangeable.
More used users in this specific brand could give you a better advice than me,


Cheers,

Renato

[B.S.Kumar]

Sendero,

I assume you are speaking of the Dayi cameras. Unfortunately, backs among the various cameras are incompatible with one another. The exceptions are Sinar and Horseman, which can use the same backs, lens boards and bellows, while a Cambo ground glass back will fit a Super Graphic.

Kumar

[senderoaburrido]

Are there back adapters?

[B.S.Kumar]

None that I know of. Also, the Cambo SC groundglass frame will fit a Sinar F/F1 Graflok frame. It will not fit an F2/C2/P2/X frame.

Kumar