View Full Version : Plate Cameras: Educate Me
I continue to toy with the idea of buying a vintage LF camera. I currently shoot a Shen Hao 4x5 and love vintage lenses. Also shoot 1914 Kodak 6x9 and 1937 Bessa. I was thinking of trying wet plate, but I think it's just too limiting for me, an outdoor shooter. I'm now looking hard at dry plate cameras. I was thinking of trying something that can shoot both dry plate and 4x5. Dry plate when I want the look, sheet film when I want the convenience and faster ISO.
What I would want is something fancy! Very striking and well made--no 1880 Holga! I think I'm looking at time period 1880 to maybe 1900. I've read that the best American cameras came from American Optical. T. Anthony doesn't look bad either. Many of the British cameras look nice--Lancaster, Sanderson, etc. I've also consider a Pickard & Thornton because of the cool looking shutter! These seem to be more fro 1900-1920 though. I really like their look though. I want something reasonably portable--no big studio cameras LOL. The English field cameras are so elegant!
I'm thinking of half plate. That would be cheaper to shoot dry plate, easier to haul around and set up. I've also been reading that I can take a half plate holder and "glue" (with honey!) a sheet of 4x5 onto the glass and shoot it just fine. Is this true? If so, I think that's what I'm looking for.
One final thought is to skip the half plate deal and for a mini-camera made in the 20s or 30s that shoots either 6.5x9 or 9x12, such as an Avus, Bergheil, or Zeiss Ideal. I almost bought the little 6.5x9 on eBay yesterday (brown & brass one from 1925.) I'm thinking the smaller the camera, the more likely I am to bring it along and keep using it. Downside is they aren't as old or as fancy looking.
One final question. Sheet film and dry plate seemed to exist side by side for about 50 years. Why was that? If dry plate had an ISO of "1" and film was at least ISO 12, who would still shoot dry plate? It was a hassle to make, didn't have a long shelf life, and seemed to have mostly disadvantages. How come it didn't quickly disappear as sheet film become widely available in the 1890s? This puzzles me.
So, what are some of the top fancy brands of half plate/4x5 from 1880--1900, 1915? Something I can likely find available--not too esoteric! What about shooting film in the half plate holders?
Kent in SD
Peter Gomena
13-May-2011, 22:14
From what I've read (there's a lot of information in this forum if you read the back posts) dry plates are nearly extinct. There may be some Russian plates available, but you'll have to buy from overseas. I believe Kodak did make T-Max 100 plates a few years back for scientific purposes, but no more unless (maybe) you placed a huge special order. Hope you're rich.
Film sheaths can be found for converting plate cameras to film. They are sheet metal inserts for the plate holders. E-bay is your best bet.
There are other methods for properly spacing film in glass-plate cameras. I use modern film holders on my 5x7 plate camera. A previous owner simply flipped the ground glass around frosted-side-out. I get good, sharp negatives. I also own a whole-plate camera from 1895. It originally was a plate camera, but it came with film holders. Someone must have modified or changed the back at some time in the past. It works fine as-is.
Take some time and read the back posts. Most of your questions will be answered if no one chimes in to answer your specific questions.
Peter Gomena
I've been reading older posts as I find them, and have been looking online generally. I don't mean buying ready made plates, but am instead talking about making them using gelatin and something like Liquid Light. I didn't really realize there were ready made plates a hundred years ago. How did those compare to the sheet film at the time? Why would the glass plates be more popular than sheet film then?
Kent in SD
speedfreak
13-May-2011, 23:00
Mabee it had something to do with "film flatness". Perhaps plate holders were so abundant that this "new" sheet film technology took a while to catch on. Things moved alot slower back then. It took nearly 10 years or more for digital tech to finally match film quality. The time period your talking about was 100 years earlier.
Film was already around when Eastman was still using paper negatives in his cameras but for plate cameras was usually sold in film packs in the early days.
Kodak actually bought the rights to John Edward Thornton's Patented film pack which they made for many years, he also Patented the first Roller blind shutters in the 1880's. His company made Thornton Pickard cameras & shutters.
Ian
By 100 years ago there was plenty of film available in film packs for plate cameras but some used very large roll film instead.
In the 1920's & 30's 9x12 (cm) plate cameras often came with3 plate holders, a roll and had the option of an additional 6x9 120 0r 620 roll film back or a 9x12 film pack.
Ole Tjugen
14-May-2011, 01:10
Dry plates were in common use at least as late as the 1970's, I know of one local commercial photographer who used nothing but plates as long as they were available from Ilford. Dry plates had exactly the same emulsion as film, the only difference was teh substrate!
Dry plates are still being made too, but not by Ilford - or Kodak: Slavich in Russia still make dry plates, mainly for scientific purposes where stability and flatness are crucial. Unfortunately these are slightly thicker than the old "general photography plates", making it difficult to use them in SOME plate holders.
Many of my cameras started life as plate cameras - the Gandolfi Universal, the Voigtländer Bergheil, Avus and VAG, the huge German "Reisekamera", and so on. One nice thing with older plate cameras is that the plate holders often came with format reducing adapters, so that my 24x30cm camera can readily take 9x12, 10x15, 13x18, and 18x24cm plates (or film, with inserts) in addition to the full 24x30cm.
Theres a liquid light as dry plate article (http://www.alternativephotography.com/wp/processes/gelatin-silver/silver-gelatin-dry-plate-process) at Alternative Photography. Looks a bit more involved than just using liquid light, you must sub the glass first but you don't have to actually make the emulsion yourself.
I've also seen The Light Farm referenced as a resource, and I think there are a few threads on making dry plates in the apug emulsions forum as well.
Ole, Ilford still make dry plates. On the last factory visit which was 18 moths ago we had a demonstration of the plate coating line.
However Ilford only coat specialist emulsions for industrial use (http://www.ilfordphoto.com/products/product.asp?n=56&t=Specialist+Products) and the prices are high as it's very labour intensive. So Ilford plates are a special order product.
I guess if someone wanted to place a large enough order Ilford could make FP4 plates again to special order.
Ian
Emil Schildt
14-May-2011, 04:04
Kent:
I have three Bergheil's and I love them! Not SO old, but beautifully made and easy to use..
They are really compact when folded, so using them outside is no problem!
Also they often comes with Heliar fitted on them...
(And the bergheil is cool. as you can change lenses on it. (and use a musch older cool lens on it if you want...)
The "DeLuxe" model is cool, as it is beautyfully green!
A word of warning: the holders/cassettes seems to be the most difficult to fine - and if you do, the inserts to film use are often missing.. (can be made though).
(Often you can get a roll film holder for this camera too (6x9))
I like my 9x12 best, BUT if you want to use the 6.5x9, then you can buy new glassplates for it!
here: http://www.macodirect.de/apx-100-glasplates-p-2038.html
---
the older wodden cameras are so beautifully made! But if you're going for 4x5" ish, then if you get a field camera, the front plates are often very small, which gives a limit on what size of lens to put on...
"Reisekamera's" looks different - and the front plate are often bigger - giving you the choise to fit larger lenses on it...
goamules
14-May-2011, 06:31
Since you don't mind doing things yourself, a British camera can be very fancy, and you can cut your glass to fit the sometimes uncommon sizes. Look here:
http://www.woodandbrass.co.uk/categories.php?camera_type=2
http://www.photographica.nu/
http://www.historiccamera.com/photo_history.html
I've had a couple, like the Sanderson I sold here, and it was miles above the typical American camera of the period. The brass is inlayed and the screws are aligned on a typical British camera, for example.
This is all great info. Now that I think about it, it would make sense that photographers would likely continue using glass plates as long as the emulsions were the same as the modern sheet film. It was what they were used to and probably were flatter in the holder. I also agree that the fit & finish on the best British cameras seems better than what I see in photos of most American offerings. All of the above info is helping me better define what it is I want.
I think the route I will go is to buy a Bergheil, a very nice condition one with green leather and is 6.5x9cm. I've lusted for one since last summer. I love my Voigtlander Bessa 6x9 as it's a very pretty camera and I love its precision. What I don't like is its very imprecise viewfinder(s). Being able to focus on a GG will solve all that. I also like small portable cameras rather than large ones, and is why I've stayed with 4x5. I didn't bid on the last two on eBay mainly because they weren't a complete enough set. I'd like some holders, maybe a case too. The 9x12 intrigues me, but I'm not sure how I could scan it in my Epson V700. At any rate, I already have a 4x5. The Bergheil has plate holders & there are plates available in case I do decide to try that out.
There is one last thing I was wondering about, and that is shooting 4x5 sheet film in half plate holders. It looks like it could be done and I"ve read about people simply attaching a sheet to the glass with something sticky (honey!) and shooting away. If this really is that easy, it would make a good deal on an old plate camera that's in beautiful shape a real temptation for me. I'm just trying to avoid becomming one of those guys that has a whole room full of old cameras. Not sure if anyone here knows guys like that or not. :D My wife probably would not notice if I slipped another small camera like a Bergheil into my closet, but she would certainly notice something like a Lancaster or Thornton Pickard.
Kent in SD
Kent, I was a little worried about my wife's reactions to my two British Houghton's plate camera's last year. Luckily she remembered the state of my old Quarter plate camera before I restored it (while I was in the UK) and was pleased when I bought and restored a Half plate camera and loves having them on display - her choice not mine :D
Patent Etui's are discreet and a 9x12 fits in a pocket, my favourite out of all my 9x12 cameras and just as capable.
Ian
Patent Etui's are discreet and a 9x12 fits in a pocket, my favourite out of all my 9x12 cameras and just as capable.
I looked those up and think it might be the only camera that could divert me from a Bergheil. I doubt I'll find one of them though. They don't seem to turn up often. The brown Luxus model especially appeals to me.
Kent in SD
Emil Schildt
16-May-2011, 05:21
Maybe I don't rember correctly, but on the Patent etui, you can't change lenses (?)
well - I LOVE my Bergheils, and IF you have money to spare, and want to go crazy, then check this link out!! :)
not just DeLuxe... Over the top deluxe!!
https://www.leicashop.com/vintage/voigtlaender-bergheil-deluxe-45x6cm-p-3618.html
Maybe I don't rember correctly, but on the Patent etui, you can't change lenses (?)
well - I LOVE my Bergheils, and IF you have money to spare, and want to go crazy, then check this link out!! :)
not just DeLuxe... Over the top deluxe!!
https://www.leicashop.com/vintage/voigtlaender-bergheil-deluxe-45x6cm-p-3618.html
Dang, that little thing looks cool. The interchangeable lens deal isn't that important to me. Might have to wait until the currency exchange rate is a whole lot better for me to even consider it though. :eek:
Kent in SD
Emil Schildt
16-May-2011, 06:11
The interchangeable lens deal isn't that important to me.
Kent in SD
it will be - quickly!;)
(you could fit old petzval lenses on it... or more modern ones, if you don't want the heliar look... which you will..)
If you go the Berheil way,try to get the Kodak Plateholders for the Kodak/Nagel Recomar 33 9x12cm. The Holders accept Sheetfilm as well as Glasplates (Pressure Plate), no additional filmsheath necessary.
hi kent
i have been coating dry plates for camera and darkroom use since the 1980s ..
it is not hard at all and fun ... i use plain old liquid light these days
a lot easier than making my own emulsion ..
i am not sure how expensive the slavich plates are, but just to give you an
idea of how pricy the kodak tmx plates were ... back in the 1980s ...
a box of 100 cost about 400$, and the same tmx film was about 50$ / box of 100
have fun !
john
I have made dry plates with LL too, and intend to make more. Contrary to what John says it is not just fun though....its VERY fun! I have some old Folmer & Schwing convertible plate/film holders in 5x7. Take the film tray out and you have a plate holder. No special equipment needed.
it will be - quickly!;)
(you could fit old petzval lenses on it... or more modern ones, if you don't want the heliar look... which you will..)
Well, maybe. Here's what my thinking is. If I don't watch out, I'll be swimming in camera gear around my house, LOL! I already have a complete Nikon pro digital system with a backup camera, seven high powered monolights with a battery pack for each, 7 or 8 (not even sure!) Nikon SB-28 flash, a dozen or so CyberSync triggers, a Voigtlander Bessa, assorted Kodak Brownie-type cameras, a 1914 Kodak No. 1 Special, a Shen Hao 4x5 with three modern lenses and a 6 inch Derogy Petzval, oh and a 250mm Imagon now. I was thinking of buying another LF camera that was really old such as a half plate. That black & chrome Gundlach 5x7 from the 1920s/30s on eBay right now was extremely tempting--it's very striking! Must......maintain........control. I just don't want to get into buying yet another system.
Here's what I think I'll stand pat with. Keep the Nikon digital system and mega-lighting capability, of course. Keep the Voigtlander, Kodak Special as they're a lot of fun. Keep the Brownie family as they don't cost anything. Sell the Shen Hao and buy a Chamonix 4x5. Sell the Imagon 250 and get another spectacular 19th century lens. Buy a Bergheil 6.5x9 or one of those Patent Etui deals with a 120 back and a few dry plate holders & 6.5x9 sheet film holders/adapters. Doing that will give me an easy entry into dry plate. It will also give me an eye catching old camera from c. 1930. I don't need the interchangeable lens deal because I'll be able to do that with my Chamonix, and don't want to get yet another camera system started! :eek: I'm trying to keep it simple. Now, watch a drop dead gorgeous Thornton Pickard Royal Ruby with original tripod and 4x5 holders show up, and I forget all about what I just wrote. :D The small Bergheil will attract a lot less scrutiny from my wife. Especially if I hide it in the glove box of my car. :)
The LL/dryplate thing is the route I'm considering. I have a specific project in mind.
Kent in SD
Emil Schildt
17-May-2011, 02:40
understood.
I lost the battle against GAS.....
I fully recovered. I just need a 6,5X9 Bergheil, a Shen Hao 4X5" and a 8X10" camera then Ill stop :D
Best regards
I have made dry plates with LL too, and intend to make more. Contrary to what John says it is not just fun though....its VERY fun! I have some old Folmer & Schwing convertible plate/film holders in 5x7. Take the film tray out and you have a plate holder. No special equipment needed.
:) i didn't want to see overly enthusiastic
yeah, it is loads of fun !
john
Ole Tjugen
17-May-2011, 06:42
I was cured when I decided that 30x40cm (12x16") plate cameras were too big fo rme, and sold the one I had. Then I finally got a 6x4.5cm Bergheil, and had the complete range...
Well, I just spent ~$200 on an 1890s Anthony brass lens, 4 inch ultra wide, on eBay. At least it's little and my wife won't notice it so much. Now I just need another lens board...... Cripes, there is no end to it.
Kent in SD
Ole Tjugen
17-May-2011, 20:34
No Kent, what you need is a lens board with a universal iris lens mount. :D
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