View Full Version : No one wants to buy unframed prints ?
QT Luong
12-May-2011, 00:38
I just received a mass email from fineartamerica.com titled "An Open Letter to Photographers and Visual Artists - The Realities of Selling Prints Online", in which they pitch you on why you should use their service to sell your prints: because they provide a complete fulfillment system.
This paragraph caught my attention:
"Buyers buy things online because they want convenience. Buying an unframed print is not convenient. In fact, it's the exact opposite of convenient. It's like ordering a book from Amazon and having it arrive on your doorstep as 250 unbound pages... without the cover... without the glue... and then realizing that you have to drive 10 miles and pay someone $100 to glue everything together for you.
[...]
If you're serious about selling prints online, you need to be able to offer frames to go along with the prints on your website. If you don't offer frames, then you're inadvertently alienating 90% of your potential buyers. "
Do you think this is correct ?
My own experience is that I've sold many, many bare prints (not even matted) from 2001 to 2007 without offering any framing options. Even though in 2008, I began to offer custom framing (done in our studio), the vast majority of my sales remain for bare prints.
Do you think this is correct ?
There is little doubt that it is true in the pedestrian decorative market. But past that, the fate of a modern, artist supplied industrial made frame is very much up to the evaluation of the collector, dealer or curator. Tastes, archival and security requirements do differ from collection to collection.
I dont seem to have any trouble selling unframed prints. Quite the opposite is true. I sell through the local tourist/art center, and purchasers take my prints home and have them framed. I believe its a matter of personal taste, and having the frames match their decor.
I've always offered both and people seem to buy both. Some want the convenience or but others want to frame to their tastes.
The entity in question is trying to sell you on their services, that's all there is to it.
Personally I'd rather sell framed and mounted prints because then the print will be presented the way I intended and I can ensure that the print won't be damaged by the purchaser's framer. But my mounting and framing (mounting on dibond and framing with white wood frames with a custom spacer) is quite expensive and adds a lot to the cost.
William McEwen
12-May-2011, 05:22
It's like ordering a book from Amazon and having it arrive on your doorstep as 250 unbound pages... without the cover... without the glue... and then realizing that you have to drive 10 miles and pay someone $100 to glue everything together for you.
It's nothing like that.
I'd run from this company. They're shoveling a lot of bull***t your way to try to scare you into buying frames.
Jim Jones
12-May-2011, 06:18
It's nothing like that.
I'd run from this company. They're shoveling a lot of bull***t your way to try to scare you into buying frames.
Yes, indeed. Also, merchants like fineartamerica.com can't be expected to have the expertise to manufacture an image and present it as well as the original artist.
I offer photos framed or just mounted and matted, and sell about equal numbers of each at local venues. Selling framed prints online involves shipping, which is expensive and perhaps risky.
Do you think this is correct ?
I think it's pure marketing hype from a company trying to get your money.
That's the oldest sales trick in the book... Fabricate a problem then offer a solution.
BTW, I got my copy of your Yosemite book. It's magnificent! Thanks.
- Leigh
David R Munson
12-May-2011, 07:17
While I don't think that the company QT quoted is wrong, exactly, I do think they're reeeeally exaggerating it.
One thing I like about using Imagekind as my current solution for selling prints is that buyers can not only choose whether or not they also buy a frame, they can choose what kind of frame and even the kind of paper they'd prefer. You can set defaults, of course, but the buyer has options. I see that as a good thing.
Kerik Kouklis
12-May-2011, 08:48
Do you think this is correct ?
No.
I've always offered to sell prints framed, assuming people would like this option. But no one has ever taken me up on it. Thank god. Framing's a nuissance.
Bill_1856
12-May-2011, 10:29
I have always thought it better to buy a print which has been dry mounted by the photographer because it's better to have him screw it up than for my framer to do it.
Buying a framed print is what I usually do locally, but not if it requires shipping.
tgtaylor
12-May-2011, 10:35
I have always thought it better to buy a print which has been dry mounted by the photographer because it's better to have him screw it up than for my framer to do it.
Buying a framed print is what I usually do locally, but not if it requires shipping.
Very good point!
Thomas
Kirk Gittings
12-May-2011, 10:54
I always sell prints matted. As i hate anything but white mats, that way I have more potential influence over how it is finally presented.
Yeah, I like sell them matted, too. Partly because I want to exert some influence, and partly because it just seems nicer. But the prints are always just held in by corners; anyone can replace the mat if they want to.
Institutions prefer unmatted prints. They want to do things their own way.
William McEwen
12-May-2011, 14:41
Institutions prefer unmatted prints.
This is contrary to my experience.
Kirk Gittings
12-May-2011, 15:03
"Institutions prefer unmatted prints. They want to do things their own way".
Maybe, they also respect the artist vision for presentation. I have seen museums spend considerable sums restoring the original frames of paintings.
I have, something like 220 images in 13 institutional collections. The vast majority purchased. Of those, less than 20, if I remember correctly, were delivered unmated. In one case of a 12 image portfolio, two sets were purchased, one set mated and one not. All those delivered mated were also dry mounted (there seems to be some belief out there that dry mounting is a no-no too).
No one has ever even mentioned that mating or dry mounting was any kind of an issue.
William McEwen
12-May-2011, 15:20
No one has ever even mentioned that matting or dry mounting was any kind of an issue.
And no one EVER asks if it's archivally processed, mounted and matted on archival materials. Never.
Kirk Gittings
12-May-2011, 15:26
And no one EVER asks if it's archivally processed, mounted and matted on archival materials. Never.
And no one needs to ask me. I am a known professional with a long history.
William, IME there is a kind of mutual respect involved. They assume you are a professional and take care to make lasting work and you assume they are professionals and will archive it properly.
QT Luong
12-May-2011, 16:39
There is little doubt that it is true in the pedestrian decorative market.
As I understand decorative market = people purchasing to hang on their walls (as opposed to collect). But what exactly is the "pedestrian decorative market" ? Would, let say Peter Lik be part of it :-) ?
"Institutions prefer unmatted prints. They want to do things their own way".
Maybe, they also respect the artist vision for presentation. I have seen museums spend considerable sums restoring the original frames of paintings.
Sure, I don't mean to suggest that I've heard anyone say they don't accept mounted work. But if the mat isn't something the artist considers integral, I've never heard of a museum or library or corporate collection specifically requesting one.
As far as the archival business goes ... for the last fifty years museums have been contending with sculptures made out of egg cartons, paintings done on corrugated cardboard, instalations built from Barbies, truck tires, silly putty... Whether or not you and I use fresh fixer is probably pretty low on their list of concerns.
As I understand decorative market = people purchasing to hang on their walls (as opposed to collect). But what exactly is the "pedestrian decorative market" ? Would, let say Peter Lik be part of it :-) ?
Most serious collectors I know about hang work on their walls. I think the "pedestrian decorative market" would be people who buy the art to go with the couch, rather than vice versa.
Merg Ross
12-May-2011, 22:42
"Institutions prefer unmatted prints. They want to do things their own way".
Maybe, they also respect the artist vision for presentation.
I have, something like 220 images in 13 institutional collections. All those delivered mated were also dry mounted (there seems to be some belief out there that dry mounting is a no-no too).
No one has ever even mentioned that mating or dry mounting was any kind of an issue.
My experience, exactly.
William McEwen
13-May-2011, 05:34
As far as the archival business goes ... for the last fifty years museums have been contending with sculptures made out of egg cartons, paintings done on corrugated cardboard, instalations built from Barbies, truck tires, silly putty... Whether or not you and I use fresh fixer is probably pretty low on their list of concerns.
LOL
Mark Sampson
13-May-2011, 06:06
I have framed most of the prints that I've sold. It's a convenience to be able to offer a finished product; then the purchaser only needs to decide where to hang it.
John Kasaian
13-May-2011, 07:17
If I were going to invest in a fine print to hang in my home, I'd want a frame which compliments not only the print, but the decore of the room as well. I would not want to pay moneyfor a frame which doesn't suit my tastes any more than I'd want to pay for a print which doesnt suit my tastes.
I think these guys are in the business of selling frames.
My preference is to dry mount on archival board using a removable adhesive and leave it at that.
Framing's a nuissance.
Precisely. Plus the buyer will expect you to do it at less cost than that of an commercial framer. Just take a look at the number of commercial framing franchises out there if in doubt as to how big (and lucrative) the framing biz is.
As for the unending matting – dry mounting issue, I've already expressed my views in the preamble to my article on Print Presentation (http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/pages/Fine%20Art%20Print%20Presentation):
"...I would note that neither (gallery or museum) would likely require that an authentic Frederic Remington Bronze be separated from its rather substantial supporting pedestal for ease of storage. I believe it is incumbent upon the work's creator to determine the immediate condition of display. For the photographic artist this includes the size, positioning, and color of the work's support."
Plus the buyer will expect you to do it at less cost than that of an commercial framer.
Well, I offer to do it for more than the cost of a commercial framer. The idea is to offer convenience, not a discount. No way I'm going to make trips to a picture frame shop out of the kindness of my heart. Luckily it never comes up.
The mount / don't mount discussion's been beaten to death. It comes down to preference. I don't like to dry mount anything ... but my prints are generally small. Unmounted big prints can be more problematic.
Museum conservators prefer unmounted (or easily unmounted) work, but they really don't have a say in anything.
Jim Jones
13-May-2011, 10:59
If I were going to invest in a fine print to hang in my home, I'd want a frame which compliments not only the print, but the decore of the room as well. I would not want to pay moneyfor a frame which doesn't suit my tastes any more than I'd want to pay for a print which doesnt suit my tastes. . . .
I certainly understand. However, by buying basic aluminum frames in quantity, I can give the buyer the choice of inexpensive framed or just mounted and matted photos. In this depressed rural economy, people appreciate the opportunity to save a few dollars, especially on something relatively unimportant like art. Life must be different for those concerned with keeping up with the Jonses. I help them too, by making it easy to keep up with my tumbledown 119-year-old farm house, an aging pickup truck, cameras that some might consider antiques, and no clothing dressier than a new pair of blue jeans. Life is simple; life is good.
Kirk Gittings
13-May-2011, 11:07
Well, I offer to do it for more than the cost of a commercial framer. The idea is to offer convenience, not a discount. No way I'm going to make trips to a picture frame shop out of the kindness of my heart. Luckily it never comes up.
The mount / don't mount discussion's been beaten to death. It comes down to preference. I don't like to dry mount anything ... but my prints are generally small. Unmounted big prints can be more problematic.
Museum conservators prefer unmounted (or easily unmounted) work, but they really don't have a say in anything.
I have my prints commercially framed and mark up from there.
Drew Wiley
13-May-2011, 11:56
One reason for having prints fully framed it you are working with a commercial gallery
is that it largely protects the prints from careless handling, which does indeed at times
happen in even expensive establishments. I once went into the back room of a well
known gallery only to see a major portfolio of Manuel Alvarez Bravo's prints all smudged
with fingerprints, waterspots from a leaky ceiling, a few coffee stains, and laying all
around the floor. Needless to say, I declined to be displayed in that particular establishement, no matter how nice their actual showroom looked. I could cite a couple
of far worse horror stories. Frames can often be reused for the next show. But if you're
simply selling your work directly, it can be an option. I still keep my own frame shop
intact, even though I don't have much time at the moment to use it. And I routinely
drymount, at least black and white prints - it has never been an issue, and most
parties prefer a finished presentation with at least mount and overmat. If I was one
of those sidewalk art fair types, I'd have a couple of framed samples, then a wider
selection simply mounted, matted, and shrink-wrapped in a bin. A lot of galleries do
that too.
It's unlikely that most galleries will have the storage space for anyone's framed prints. They keep most of the their consigned work in flatfiles or print boxes. The only way to protect yourself from a gallery that's as pathological as the one you describe is to do what you did ... flee.
Any art dealer behaving like that will not be in business much longer, unless they're a front for something else. I've seen this kind of thing before (some friends of mine had lawsuits drag on for years against the now-defunct Stuart Levy gallery in NYC.). Good galleries don't do this kind of thing.
I certainly understand. However, by buying basic aluminum frames in quantity, I can give the buyer the choice of inexpensive framed or just mounted and matted photos. In this depressed rural economy, people appreciate the opportunity to save a few dollars, especially on something relatively unimportant like art. Life must be different for those concerned with keeping up with the Jonses. I help them too, by making it easy to keep up with my tumbledown 119-year-old farm house, an aging pickup truck, cameras that some might consider antiques, and no clothing dressier than a new pair of blue jeans. Life is simple; life is good.
Sure makes it easy for anyone who's got mouths to feed to make a living off zero profits as well. I bet those children overseas who put those frames together sure think life is good to.
Jim Jones
13-May-2011, 16:05
Sure makes it easy for anyone who's got mouths to feed to make a living off zero profits as well. I bet those children overseas who put those frames together sure think life is good to.
Gee, I didn't even know one could get basic aluminum frames preassembled. It seems illogical. They have to be partly disassembled to insert the glass, mat, and artwork. Also, they must be expensive to ship. Of course I do my own framing and, until a year ago, cut all my mats on a home-made mat cutter. Now it can be as inexpensive to get archival precut window mats as it is to buy the matboard. Those poor children overseas might have to rely on big city American photographers for a livelihood.
Well, I offer to do it for more than the cost of a commercial framer.
Bingo!
Addendum: In truth, I believe you should do anything to market your prints that you're comfortable with!
Sean Galbraith
13-May-2011, 20:48
I offer either straight prints or full framing to my clients (the latter only if they are local... I don't ship framed). So far, only one client has chosen non-framed.
Kirk Gittings
13-May-2011, 20:56
If I were going to invest in a fine print to hang in my home, I'd want a frame which compliments not only the print, but the decore of the room as well. I would not want to pay moneyfor a frame which doesn't suit my tastes any more than I'd want to pay for a print which doesnt suit my tastes.
I think these guys are in the business of selling frames.
My preference is to dry mount on archival board using a removable adhesive and leave it at that.
What is a removable adhesive. I have tried it while hot on my tissue and it was a mess.
Eric Biggerstaff
14-May-2011, 07:20
Buffer mount is supposed to be reversable, unlike Color Mount which is my preferred.
Greg Blank
14-May-2011, 09:51
Like Crescent Perfect Bond, MUT2459. I prefered the rolls then you can do multiple sizes versus having a bunch of various size sheets. It is a lower temp bonding tissue and is stated as being acid free. I have used it for both fiber and RC papers with success, it can be peeled or at least soaked off the backside of the photograph if that is at some point required. This may be an old enough product code and is NLA. But there will be other similar products coming from various suppliers like Bienfang - etc,
http://www.forframersonly.com/products.asp?ID=10&C=2
What is a removable adhesive. I have tried it while hot on my tissue and it was a mess.
Drew Wiley
14-May-2011, 10:02
Being low-temp removable, Buffer Mount is capable of reversing itself during a hot
UPS shipment somewhere, or being delivered in a car trunk, with the corners lifting or bubbles forming. I'll stick with good ole reliable Color Mount. Adding a buffer to
the mounting tissue is redundant anyway for most purposes.
What is a removable adhesive. I have tried it while hot on my tissue and it was a mess.
Perhaps referring to Bienfang's Buffermount, the print can be removed from its mount by reheating – with some difficulty and great attention. Inexplicably, I find myself agreeing with Drew :o, regarding its deficiencies. Once again, I have written previously about this (http://www.rangeoflightphotography.com/pages/Fine%20Art%20Print%20Presentation#drymounting):
"Mounting tissue comes in a variety of flavors, with Bienfang's (formerly Seal) BufferMount being most commonly available as of this writing. I prefer the no longer available Seal MT-5 Mounting Tissue for mural sized prints as its adhesion to mount board is superior to all others. BufferMount is recommended for standard size prints as it will allow the removal of the print from the mat upon reheating (making the dry mounted print truly (?!?) archival). My concern with BufferMount and large prints involves its proclivity to release the print unexpectedly as heat builds up within a framed and glazed piece if sunlight intrudes."
A bit of a tangent, but I just got back from the New York Photo Festival in Brooklyn, and noticed that the vast majority of work was mounted on boards (gatorfoam or something that looked similar), with no frame and no glazing.
This seems like the new version of the old, ubiquitous white overmat / simple black frame.
Drew Wiley
15-May-2011, 14:18
Nothing beats no glazing at all for being on the cheap and not worrying about secondary reflections; but all it takes is one greasy fingerprint or someone popping
a fizzy Coke can in front of it. Are we taking this Starving Artist ethos just a step too far?
ziplock122949
16-May-2011, 01:08
Just an attention grabber mostly. Yes, many do not want to buy just prints because they still need to do something with them, but they also tend to be the ones that will just go online and buy cheap art/frames.
Nothing beats no glazing at all for being on the cheap and not worrying about secondary reflections; but all it takes is one greasy fingerprint or someone popping
a fizzy Coke can in front of it. Are we taking this Starving Artist ethos just a step too far?
I think it's part cyclical trend, and part trickle-down from the recent era when so many people were printing huge. It's impractical to frame murals, so we saw artists doing everything from mounting the emulsion side on plexi to just pinning bare prints to the walls.
The cyclical part is that this is a return to how photos used to be shown. For much of the first half of the 20th century it was seen as gaudy and affected to frame photographs like other art, so they were either pasted to boards or just tacked to the wall. The prints in Steichen's Family of Man show were just pasted to boards. A bit later, overmats and frames became the standard.
Nowadays, standards don't seem to matter as much. It's still nice to know that simple board mounting is an option that won't be looked down on.
Drew Wiley
16-May-2011, 09:46
The lab-galleries around here display their "shows" unframed. They have receptions and
so forth, but basically represent advanced amateurs who need their printing services,
and most of it is inkjet... folks having fun and putting a lot of work and creativity into it, but otherwise nothing really valuable. I cut my teeth on Cibachrome, which you don't want to touch, period. And it's amazing how many people will literally slobber and drool over an unframed print taken out of a drawer and viewed on a table. The first
"serious" gallery I saw displaying prints unframed was Grapestake in SF, back in the
70's, who would literally thumbtack the early C-prints and dye transfers of Meyerowitz, Shore, and Misrach to the walls. He was something of a pioneer in representeing that kind of genre, but very few people visited the gallery; he operated at a steady loss, just for the love of it I think, and had to keep the overhead very low. But I sure wouldn't trust art insurance in such circumstances if something went wrong.
There are protective laminates that can be put over mounted prints. I don't know what their archival properties are. The lab I worked at years ago did a lot of this.
I'll be looking into it toward the end of the project I'm working on now. It should lend itself well to board mounting. I'm not sure what kind of paper I'm going to print on and how delicate its surface will be.
Drew Wiley
16-May-2011, 10:37
Washable laminates are nice for big color decor prints, provided you have access to
someone with the right kind of equipment, or have the gear yourself. But I would never
laminate anything considered a "fine art" print. It's for the kind of thing you'd sell to a
restaurant - kinda matches the plastic placemats. Or looks like a trade-show display,
or sensible for street art fair work.
Since we're on a tangent, there's a guy in traverse city michigan that takes any print material and adhere's them with a coating (front and back) to a masonite type of substrate. He did a 24x30 lightjet for me that hangs in a hotel up there. I had seen some of his work in the past and it was amazing. The process makes the prints look so good and they're washable. I've seen every kind of mounting out there but haven't seen this one outside michigan.
woodengallery.com if you're interested.
Drew Wiley
16-May-2011, 11:59
Since Masonite is both highly acidic and contains quite a bit of formaldehyde as well as
sulfur, that option wouldn't be classified as "archival", to say the least. But with an
overlaminate keeping moisture completely out, should be good for awhile for general
decor. It's probably a special smooth and dense kind of masonite called Duolux. I used
to sell lots of it to Friends of Photography down in Carmel, but at least they put a layer of Saran Wrap between it and the print, and used it only for short-term exhibits.
Still, the thought of ever mixing prints with masonite gave me the creeps. But that's
what they insisted on due to budget limitations.
That describes the stuff we used at the lab where I worked, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are much nicer equivalents now, designed for art. It would just make sense, considering how much unglazed work is being done right now.
Washable laminates are nice for big color decor prints, provided you have access to
someone with the right kind of equipment, or have the gear yourself. But I would never
laminate anything considered a "fine art" print. It's for the kind of thing you'd sell to a
restaurant - kinda matches the plastic placemats. Or looks like a trade-show display,
or sensible for street art fair work.
chacabuco
19-May-2011, 17:39
Most of the prints I've framed are mounted to museum board or dibond and laminated with mactac satin, framed right to the border. No glare and definitely does not have a plasticy or cheap look IMHO.
Drew Wiley
19-May-2011, 19:47
MacTac has a reputation for some of the best quality overlaminates and adhesives out there, though not necessarily always the easiest to use. I have some of their adhesive on hand.
bob carnie
20-May-2011, 06:40
We are doing this with a lot of our clients as well.. high gloss prints mount to dibond with a satin thick laminate in frame no matt, very nice presentation if done well.
We are using Drytac cold laminate under the permaflex lustex or simply lexanlaminate.
Most of the prints I've framed are mounted to museum board or dibond and laminated with mactac satin, framed right to the border. No glare and definitely does not have a plasticy or cheap look IMHO.
Drew Wiley
20-May-2011, 08:35
Bob - by high gloss I assume Fujiflex? Have you had a chance to try the latest version
of polyester base, which allegedly has a cleaner white base? I'm still tinkering with the new version (Type II) of the RC paper, and am getting great results, certainly an improvement over the previous Type C paper, which wasn't shabby. The hues are cleaner, and allegedly the permanence has been improved even more by better clearing of residual couplers, but a little more contrast tweaking seems necessary.
bob carnie
20-May-2011, 11:45
Drew
Yes I am referring to Fuji flex , this is a common product for us so I guess I am using the latest version as I buy direct from Fuji.
I have noticed that the whites are not as clean as fuji luster but the product really is beautiful , I would say the whites are better than a couple of years ago but that is only by memory and I am getting old.
The lambda calibrates a 21 step wedge before we run therefore lasers are positioned correctly so we do not have to tweak the files for this product.
Bob
Bob - by high gloss I assume Fujiflex? Have you had a chance to try the latest version
of polyester base, which allegedly has a cleaner white base? I'm still tinkering with the new version (Type II) of the RC paper, and am getting great results, certainly an improvement over the previous Type C paper, which wasn't shabby. The hues are cleaner, and allegedly the permanence has been improved even more by better clearing of residual couplers, but a little more contrast tweaking seems necessary.
Bill L.
21-May-2011, 05:40
We are doing this with a lot of our clients as well.. high gloss prints mount to dibond with a satin thick laminate in frame no matt, very nice presentation if done well.
We are using Drytac cold laminate under the permaflex lustex or simply lexanlaminate.
Can anyone recommend some introductory references (books, websites, etc) on mounting and overlaminating? I'm using traditional matting and glass glazing, and have been tempted to look for framing options without the glazing.
Thanks!
Bill
bob carnie
21-May-2011, 06:14
Drytac here in Toronto offers courses in cold mounting time to time, They cover all aspects of mounting and laminates.
Can anyone recommend some introductory references (books, websites, etc) on mounting and overlaminating? I'm using traditional matting and glass glazing, and have been tempted to look for framing options without the glazing.
Thanks!
Bill
Bill L.
22-May-2011, 08:47
Thanks! Any books on the topic? I would love to take a course, but trying to figure out if it is worth taking the time from the day job in Maryland (or to stick with more traditional mounting/framing).
bob carnie
22-May-2011, 10:39
The book by Wilhelm, has a section
The Permanence and Care of Colour Photographs.
Thanks! Any books on the topic? I would love to take a course, but trying to figure out if it is worth taking the time from the day job in Maryland (or to stick with more traditional mounting/framing).
Drew Wiley
22-May-2011, 15:36
Working with hi-tack adhesives and overlaminates is probably something best learned by direct instruction, and tends to be both equipment and product specific.
There are quite a few things which can potentially go wrong.
supremespy2
12-Jul-2011, 18:46
There is a lot of difference between selling prints online and offline, and this is one of them. Some customers ask for prints with frames, while others don't. Generally speaking, it's like a given thing to sell prints online without frames. You can offer frames to customers, though.
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