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View Full Version : Help In Starting LF. Clueless. :(



Rain Dance
10-May-2011, 07:12
Hello, I want to ask what would be a good kit in starting in LF. My target "look" is like this http://www.barnorama.com/vintage-surf-photos/ . Can that be achieved by a 4x5? I have no interest is landscapes, I will only use it for portraiture, but not inside a studio. 4x5 is the size I a most willing to use. Also, is there a 4x5 LF camera that can be hand held? I also would like it not to be too expensive, so the most reasonably priced kit is what I am after. Thanks. :)

richardhkirkando
10-May-2011, 08:04
Hello, I want to ask what would be a good kit in starting in LF. My target "look" is like this http://www.barnorama.com/vintage-surf-photos/ . Can that be achieved by a 4x5? I have no interest is landscapes, I will only use it for portraiture, but not inside a studio. 4x5 is the size I a most willing to use. Also, is there a 4x5 LF camera that can be hand held? I also would like it not to be too expensive, so the most reasonably priced kit is what I am after. Thanks. :)
Sounds like a press camera such as a Graflex Crown/Speed Graphic is exactly what you're looking for. They're hand-holdable (for a LF camera, at least), usually come with a normal lens (135 or 150mm) in a shutter, most even have a rangefinder. Should cost around $300 for a complete setup.

Michael E
10-May-2011, 08:07
Your best bet might be an old press camera. They were intended for handheld use. Also, they fold up and are easy to carry. My Speed Graphic has a coupled rangefinder and a viewfinder, so I don't have to use the ground glass (with the dedicated lens). It also has a built-in shutter, so I can use cheap barrel lenses. A Linhof Technika would also meet your requirements, but for a much higher price.

The examples in your link gain much of their magic by processing or reproduction "faults". You will have to mess up a lot to get this look.

Michael

lilmsmaggie
10-May-2011, 08:12
I'm assuming you're referring to the vintage surfing photos.

While handheld 4x5 is possible, you will find it a bit challenging.

Since you don't specify a budgeted amount, I'm not sure what a "Reasonably priced kit," means. You need to determine how much you're willing to spend.

On the budget side, you could get yourself either a Crown Graphic, or Super Graphic
or Toyo Super Graphic. These will be relatively inexpensive cameras that you could buy from KEH: http://www.keh.com

Moving up the expense ladder, a Fujifilm GF670 or it's counterpart, the Cosina Voigtlanger Bessa III while not 4x5 may be something to consider if you could find a used one.

MIke Sherck
10-May-2011, 12:18
Note that the surf photos are all wet-plate photographs, using a photographic process which was becoming obsolete about the time of the American Civil War. It's enjoyed something of a revival lately because it provides a different "look" to the photograph than do modern films and papers. If that's what you're trying to duplicate, note that it will require significantly more time and effort to master the process and use it in the field.

Mike

jnantz
10-May-2011, 12:53
check out bostik and sullivan -
they sell "wet plate starter kits " that
include a brownie box camera retrofitted
to take metal or glass plates. as long as you
learn how to coat the plates with collodion
and sensitize them ... you will be good to go.
and starting small with one of their brownies will
save you $$ ( the plates are smaller than 4x5 ... )

have fun !
john

Drew Bedo
10-May-2011, 17:54
Moving up the budget scale are the Fotoman cameras and the various conversions of Polaroid cameras.

The Polaroids have a coupled range/viewfinder and have been used in fashion portraiture. The footman are scale focusing o=point-and-shoot.

Both types are designed for hand-held photography. A Grafmatic back can be useful for quick multiple shots with these cameras.

Let us know what you do and post some photos!

Rain Dance
10-May-2011, 18:05
Thank you very much for the informative posts. I thought the surf pictures have that look because of the thin DOF. For now I use 35mm film and a DSLR. If it needs to be in a tripod, that is not a problem for me. I will use it only for outdoor portraits. What possible lens could be used for that kind of DOF? I think 4x5 (or smaller) is the most realistic size I am willing to use. My budget will be Hopelfully $500, but it can go over a bit. :P I will check the link about KEH and the Bostick and Sullivan. Thanks!

Frank Petronio
10-May-2011, 18:09
If you simply want the short depth-of-field and vignetted look, and want to dirty up your film or funk it up some how digitally, then a 35mm or SLR with a fast portrait lens will get you close... a 85/1.4 type.

In 4x5 you might get closer using a Speed Graphic (with focal plane shutter in the camera body) with the 172/2.5 Aero-Ektar. Or Xenotar 150/2.8. Or 135/3.5. But those lenses are more expensive than the standard press lens that usually comes with a Speed or Crown Graphic.

Another possibility would be the Graflex SLR, like the Super D model modified to use modern film holders (or collect older holders that fit). These usually have the 190mm Ektar that is a beautiful portrait lens but it may be "longer" than what the surf photographer used. You can find modified users complete for $600-$800.

Rain Dance
10-May-2011, 18:20
I saw these on the links that were said.

First is in KEH, are these camera kits complete?? Can i change their lenses?

http://www.keh.com/camera/Large-Format-Folding-Cameras/1/sku-LF03999052489Z?r=FE

http://www.keh.com/camera/Large-Format-Folding-Cameras/1/sku-LF039990652290?r=FE

And this looks like a suitable portrait lens:

http://www.keh.com/camera/Large-Format-Fixed-Focal-Length-Lenses/1/sku-LF06009034834N?r=FE

The speed/crown graphics look nice. :) I have an 85/1.4 and 135/2.8 in my slr, but I also want to try large format portraits. :)

Rain Dance
10-May-2011, 18:22
I saw this also in the Bostick and Sullivan Site:

http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/cart/product.php?productid=1145&cat=323&page=1

Then I noticed the weight is 20lbs(!). I think the most weight is 10lbs for me.

MIke Sherck
10-May-2011, 19:13
The wet plate process is called that because you have to coat the glass or metal photographic plate, take the picture, and develop it before the coating dries; within a span of only a few minutes (very few, if you're in an arid environment.) This means that in essence you have to take the darkroom into the field with you. In the old days they used covered wagons; now they convert the back of their car or truck into at least a rudimentary darkroom so that they can use the process in the field. Go to YouTube and search for "wet plate photography"; there are quite a few videos showing the process.

There isn't any other way of reproducing closely the surfer portraits you referred to. The way the coating spreads across the plate when you coat it just before exposure; the creamy tones and defects in coating, the odd spectral response to different colors of light, make a wet plate photograph distinctive. On the other hand, as I'm sure you've noticed by now, photography is a journey, not a destination. Start by making portraits with a hand-held large format camera such as one of those previously mentioned and using ordinary film. See what you get and experiment, such as trying orthochromatic film, which is closer to older films from the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th centuries. Learn more. If wet-plate continues to call, you'll know more and be better prepared to answer once you have some experience with large format.

Good luck and keep us informed on how it goes!

Mike

Brian C. Miller
10-May-2011, 19:47
I saw this also in the Bostick and Sullivan Site:

http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/cart/product.php?productid=1145&cat=323&page=1

Then I noticed the weight is 20lbs(!). I think the most weight is 10lbs for me.

That's the shipping weight, which includes tin plates and chemicals. The actual camera is much lighter.

jnantz
10-May-2011, 19:54
brian's right
it is not only the camera but it seems to be
the 4x5 wet plate kit ( trays too )
http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/cart/cart.php

Rain Dance
10-May-2011, 20:07
I see, thanks for the clarification. But from what Mike Sherck said, wet plate is too much for me right now. I think I better start with the 4x5 speed/crown graphic. Do those kits come with everything I need, or do I still need to buy stuff like lenses, shutters etc.? (Excluding sheet film and chemicals)

Ole Tjugen
10-May-2011, 23:40
Note that the surf photos are all wet-plate photographs, using a photographic process which was becoming obsolete about the time of the American Civil War. ...

They look far more like dry plate to me. Sloppily processed dry-plate, perhaps with a monobath process in an uncontrolled environment.

Those aren't coating streaks, they are processing streaks. ;))

richardhkirkando
11-May-2011, 05:46
Those kits are complete, though I'd skip the Century Graphic because you'll be limited to roll film backs. (edit: you will also need film holders, a changing bag, and probably a dark cloth)

Lenses are mounted to a board, which is in turn mounted to the camera. Lens boards are generally designed for a specific camera type, and will have a hole drilled for a specific shutter size. The Symmar you linked has a Copal 1 shutter (which is ~42mm), so you will also want to purchase a Graphic-style lens board with a 42mm hole drilled. One thing to keep in mind with press cameras is that a lot of modern lenses are bigger and you may not be able to fold the camera up while it is mounted. You can still use them, but it makes the kit less portable.

Adorama (http://www.adorama.com/catalog.tpl?op=itemlist&cat1=Used&cat2=Large%20Format&cat3=Cameras&sf=Price) has a few Graflex kits in stock too, though their condition ratings are not nearly as accurate as KEH's IMO. Also keep an eye on the for sale forum here, lots of good deals and honest sellers.

Rain Dance
11-May-2011, 07:30
So I cannot use 4x5 sheet film with century graphic? I see there is a B/S section, I just saw it Now. I will read first about those lens boards, as it is getting complicared. :D LF seems to be too technical so I thought I will start wit complete kits that are being sold.

richardhkirkando
11-May-2011, 07:55
Yep, the century is 2x3. Indeed, getting the right parts can be complicated, so starting with a complete kit is definitely a good idea.

ic-racer
11-May-2011, 10:37
Vintage Surfing Pictures????

Well if you consider 2007 to be vintage, then OK.


"Over the last year, I have been working exclusively in the 8x10 format, shooting one of a kind tintypes. My camera is a Deardorff, with a back that is adapted to take wet plates. For this project [Montauck's Ditch Plains] I used period brass lenses, as well as a modern lens with a shutter." --- Joni Sternbach 2007

Rain Dance
11-May-2011, 17:19
Well I am not the one who put a title on the site. :P but thanks for the info. :)

JJeffrey
11-May-2011, 21:02
Rain Dance, if I may just offer an opinion -- as someone who once upon a time spent a lot of time using a Crown Graphic 4x5 -- what you should start out with here is a standard Crown Graphic 4x5 (not the Century 2 1/4 x 3 1/4), making sure you get one that has its standard lens with it (usually 135mm, though some were 137mm); either an Ektar or a Graphlex Optar will meet your purposes, though I always thought the Ektars have a nicer 'look'. The important thing is to have the original lens, because it will work correctly with the *rangefinder* of the camera, allowing you to focus easily with the camera hand-held. If you buy a lens separately, you will have to find someone to cut you a rangefinder coupling cam specially for that lens; probably there are only one or two shops in the USA now that can and will do that job.

I wouldn't buy the Apo-Symmar, first because you'd need to get a rangefinder cam cut for it, and second because it's too modern a lens to give you the "look" you are seeking. The images you're admiring were made with less highly-corrected lenses, and at fairly wide apertures. The Ektars and Optars have maximum apertures of around f: 4.5 or 4.7, and should put you in the ballpark to start with. Stopped down, they'll give you almost as nice an image as the Apo-Symmar, though without the razor-edge look characteristic of the modern lens; many of us actualy prefer the smoother, creamier gradations of the older lenses.

I can't stress too much how important the rangefinder will be if you want to handhold the Crown Graphic. You might want to tell the seller what you're doing, and it could be worth your while to pay to have the rangefinder and the accuracy of its coupling checked out professionally. Sheetfilm is expensive and you don't need the frustration of out-of-focus images, especially using the lens wide open. The Graphic is a superb camera for relatively rapid (as LF goes) handheld work; thousands of ex-press-photographers can attest to that. But the rangefinder is crucial.

You might find later on that you prefer the look of a longer focal length lens, on the order of 180 to 210 mm. But to use such a lens you will have to put the camera on a tripod and learn how to focus and compose an upside-down dim image on the groundglass -- there is a fairly formidable learning curve involved in this, and I'd recommend that you start with the standard-issue 135mm. "normal" press camera rangefinder-coupled lens; you'll have enough to learn as it is.

Spend the money on a Crown Graphic in excellent condition with its standard lens. If you plan on full-figure portraits you really don't need a longer focal length lens. I hope you have a lot of fun -- once you get the drill through your head and into your hands, press cameras are a gas to use and will give you images with a unique character quite different from the 35mm to which you are accustomed.

Jim Jones
12-May-2011, 06:33
. . . The important thing is to have the original lens, because it will work correctly with the *rangefinder* of the camera, allowing you to focus easily with the camera hand-held. If you buy a lens separately, you will have to find someone to cut you a rangefinder coupling cam specially for that lens; probably there are only one or two shops in the USA now that can and will do that job. . . .

There were two versions of the Crown Graphic. The older one had a Kalart rangefinder mounted on the side that could be adjusted, with a little bother, for different focal length lenses. The later version had a rangefinder built into the top of the camera that, as Jeffrey says, required a cam. These cams are sometimes available on online auction sites. Contemporary with the Crown was the Speed Graphic; similar but with a focal plane shutter. Earlier Speed Graphic cameras with more limited features would also be useable for your project. For more information on these fine cameras go to http://www.graphic.org/.

JJeffrey
12-May-2011, 08:40
Sorry, I just spotted an inadvertent typo in my previous message: should have written "though some were 127 mm." -- not 137mm. Jim is quite correct about the two different models of Crown Graphic. Speed Graphics are even neater, but having two separate shutter systems (focal-plane and front leaf) increases the possibility of foul-ups in the learning period; also it's not easy finding a Speed Graphic now with a focal-plane shutter that doesn't need its curtain and springs replaced. Too many years have elapsed since these wonderful cameras were manufactured. :(

toolbox
12-May-2011, 11:58
Rain Dance, if I may just offer an opinion -- as someone who once upon a time spent a lot of time using a Crown Graphic 4x5 -- what you should start out with here is a standard Crown Graphic 4x5 (not the Century 2 1/4 x 3 1/4), making sure you get one that has its standard lens with it (usually 135mm, though some were 137mm); either an Ektar or a Graphlex Optar will meet your purposes, though I always thought the Ektars have a nicer 'look'. The important thing is to have the original lens, because it will work correctly with the *rangefinder* of the camera, allowing you to focus easily with the camera hand-held. If you buy a lens separately, you will have to find someone to cut you a rangefinder coupling cam specially for that lens; probably there are only one or two shops in the USA now that can and will do that job.

I wouldn't buy the Apo-Symmar, first because you'd need to get a rangefinder cam cut for it, and second because it's too modern a lens to give you the "look" you are seeking. The images you're admiring were made with less highly-corrected lenses, and at fairly wide apertures. The Ektars and Optars have maximum apertures of around f: 4.5 or 4.7, and should put you in the ballpark to start with. Stopped down, they'll give you almost as nice an image as the Apo-Symmar, though without the razor-edge look characteristic of the modern lens; many of us actualy prefer the smoother, creamier gradations of the older lenses.

I can't stress too much how important the rangefinder will be if you want to handhold the Crown Graphic. You might want to tell the seller what you're doing, and it could be worth your while to pay to have the rangefinder and the accuracy of its coupling checked out professionally. Sheetfilm is expensive and you don't need the frustration of out-of-focus images, especially using the lens wide open. The Graphic is a superb camera for relatively rapid (as LF goes) handheld work; thousands of ex-press-photographers can attest to that. But the rangefinder is crucial.

You might find later on that you prefer the look of a longer focal length lens, on the order of 180 to 210 mm. But to use such a lens you will have to put the camera on a tripod and learn how to focus and compose an upside-down dim image on the groundglass -- there is a fairly formidable learning curve involved in this, and I'd recommend that you start with the standard-issue 135mm. "normal" press camera rangefinder-coupled lens; you'll have enough to learn as it is.

Spend the money on a Crown Graphic in excellent condition with its standard lens. If you plan on full-figure portraits you really don't need a longer focal length lens. I hope you have a lot of fun -- once you get the drill through your head and into your hands, press cameras are a gas to use and will give you images with a unique character quite different from the 35mm to which you are accustomed.

This. I've got a '50s vintage Crown that I've put a lot of film through, and I have yet to use it on a tripod. Once you get the hang of the whole process, it's actually a pretty fast camera to use (relatively speaking of course). It is a lot of fun to use, and for a 4x5 it's pretty light/compact. I also have a 3x4 Speed Graphic, but it's really not much smaller than the 4x5. I think I paid around $230 for the Crown with two lenses some film holders and other bits. I usually just use the 127mm on it with the rangefinder. That was a pretty good deal, but the camera did need some work cleaning it up and getting it running...it must have been sitting around for a really long time when I got it.