How do you use front asymmetric movements?

[Ed Richards]

I have an Ebony 45SU and use the back asymmetric movements quite a bit. But they do screw up perspective. I can use front swings and tilts, but once you use asymmetric movements, it is hard to go back. Can some explain to me how you use front asymmetric movements, as compared to the back? Is it the same process, i.e., focus on the null line, then tilt, just tilting in the opposite direction?

[Joanna Carter]

Don't get me started :cool: :eek: As others in the UKLFPG forums will know, I can see no point at all in asymmetric movements.

As far as I know, the movements on the front are either central axis tilt or base tilt.

The axis tilt on the front board swivels around the centre of the image, thus providing symmetric tilt; I reckon I can set up focus and tilt, on the front, just as quickly as anyone using asymmetrics.

[Bob McCarthy]

Sinar high end camera's (P&X) are probably the only reasonably priced cameras that I am aware of, that use asymmetric movement on the front standard. Yes it's identical to using it on the rear standard.

bob

[Peter De Smidt]

If I remember rightly, Sinar recommended first setting the tilt and swing on the rear standard. You then read the settings off of the scales and transfer them to the front standard, matching the color coding on the scales. (In other words, if you need to tilt the back X degrees backward to get the plane of focus where you want it, you'd tilt the lens board X degrees forward.) Finally, put the rear standard back in neutral.

With the Ebony, the movements are not the same on the front and back, right? So you'd have to match angles somehow. I expect that by the time you find your protractor that Joanna will be done setting front tilt directly.

[Bob McCarthy]

Peter that is true for the F and the C. I suppose it would work with the P too. Figure out the movement with the rear and transfer settings to the front.

But the P also allows direct adjustment of the focal plane with the required offset pivot allowing for asymmetrical movement. Only issue is - with shift or rise, its means the etched lines on the GG will be a bit off.

bob

[Joanna Carter]

With the Ebony, the movements are not the same on the front and back, right? So you'd have to match angles somehow. I expect that by the time you find your protractor that Joanna will be done setting front tilt directly.
Every time :cool: :D

I think the only time I could imagine even thinking about using rear tilt, asymmetric or otherwise, would be to deliberately alter the perspective. And I think that is the reason people, like Joe Cornish, would want asymmetric movements, simply because they seemed to specialise in that "big rock in the foreground" kind of shot :confused:

However, when you want to do anything vaguely architectural, simply forget all about tilting the rear and move to the "symmetric tilts" of the front standard.

[Ed Richards]

Forget I mentioned that I own an Ebony.:-) Is there a Sinar P user out there who has used front asymmetric movements? As Peter says, Sinar recommends getting the setting from the back and transferring it to the front. I am curious why you cannot see to focus just using the front.

For those who do not use asymmetric movements, it is just a matter of taste. You can do the same with center or axis tilts, but some of use find the asymmetric approach more satisfying.

[Joanna Carter]

Forget I mentioned that I own an Ebony.:-)
A very sensible choice :cool:


Sinar recommends getting the setting from the back and transferring it to the front. I am curious why you cannot see to focus just using the front.
A very, very good question.


For those who do not use asymmetric movements, it is just a matter of taste. You can do the same with center or axis tilts, but some of use find the asymmetric approach more satisfying.
Hmmmm :rolleyes:

[John Hoang]

There is an instruction on ebonycamera.com 'Asymmetrical Movements'. But in short, I quote:

'When perspective control is important, then swings and tilts are best employed at the lens plane. The convenience of asymmetrical movements can still be utilized to determine the relative degree of movement required. These movements are then transferred to the lens standard, remembering that they must be reversed, i.e. in the opposite direction of the movements on the rear standard. After the movements have been transferred to the front standard, reset the rear standard to its detent (zero) position and refocus'.

Hope it helps.

[urs0polar]

short google search provides this: (I printed it out and refer to it when using my p2). Take a look at page 11.

http://www.webster.edu/acadaffairs/asp/mediacenter/Photo/equipment%20manuals/sinar_introduction_manual.pdf

[Peter De Smidt]

My Sinar P brochure says:

"For sharpness control with lens tilt (where the perspective must remain constant) the tilt angles obtained are simply read off on the image standard, and the latter returned to it's starting position. These tilt values are transferred to the lens standard, turning in the same direction. Refocus for overall sharpness and make any final precision adjustments on the image standard. That is all."

Elsewhere on that page, they say:

"The swing and tilt axes of the lens standard also have a common plane. This greatly reduces refocusing with the lens tilts and swings (here not completely avoidable)."

I think the issue is that when you tilt the front the image framing changes, as you're pointing the cone of illumination of the lens in a slightly different direction, whereas this does not happen with rear tilts, which is why greater lens coverage is needed for lens tilts than rear tilts. As the image moves on the ground glass, the part that falls on the focusing line will change. That's why using asymmetric tilts on the front standard takes a little more work than on the back.

[Ed Richards]

Thanks urs0polar!! Better than answering my question about P/X, I now understand how my F2 is meant to work!!

[Peter De Smidt]

My first LF camera was a Sinar P. The various depth of field scales and asymmetric tilts helped me learn how to use a view camera. They would be less helpful for a seasoned LF shooter. There's a lot more LF how-to resources now, such as this site, than there were when I started out.

[Frank Petronio]

Thank goodness I never had to learn this stuff!

[Leigh]

Thank goodness I never had to learn this stuff!
Frank, your models are seldom asymmetrical. :p

Of course, that's not a bad thing. :rolleyes:

- Leigh

[Joanna Carter]

'… These movements are then transferred to the lens standard, remembering that they must be reversed, i.e. in the opposite direction of the movements on the rear standard. After the movements have been transferred to the front standard, reset the rear standard to its detent (zero) position and refocus'
… not forgetting that the hinge point will have been thrown forwards due to the back tilt, therefore, the plane of sharp focus will not be at the same angle to the vertical back that it was set up to be when the back was tilted.

No, John, you have quoted the best bit of advice:

'When perspective control is important, then swings and tilts are best employed at the lens plane… '

Would somebody please give a solid reason (apart from allegedly being quicker) why anyone would need asymmetric tilts?

And what if you need to place the plane of sharp focus where there is nothing on the asymmetric line?

… Muttering darkly, Joanna goes to make a cup of coffee… :p

[Leigh]

I looked at the PDF on the Ebony site regarding their implementation of this feature.

I didn't see any examples in that document that couldn't be done with traditional movements.

Maybe I'm missing something. :rolleyes:

- Leigh

[Joanna Carter]

Thank goodness I never had to learn this stuff!
Amen to that brother :D

I was so fortunate when I bought my first Ebony. I thought I should go for the "ultimate" SV45U2, which has asymmetric movements, but, since my pocket wasn't that deep and, since I happened on a secondhand SV45Te for around £1200, I find myself in same position as you Frank, not having to learn, or even care, about asymmetric movements :)


I looked at the PDF on the Ebony site regarding their implementation of this feature.

I didn't see any examples in that document that couldn't be done with traditional movements.

Maybe I'm missing something. :rolleyes:
Yes, you are missing that feeling that you have spent more money than you needed to ;)

[Brian Ellis]

Amen to that brother :D

I was so fortunate when I bought my first Ebony. I thought I should go for the "ultimate" SV45U2, which has asymmetric movements, but, since my pocket wasn't that deep and, since I happened on a secondhand SV45Te for around £1200, I find myself in same position as you Frank, not having to learn, or even care, about asymmetric movements :)


Yes, you are missing that feeling that you have spent more money than you needed to ;)

Having bought a couple Ebony cameras without asymetric tilt after spending a lot of time thinking about buying one with it, I'm not aware of any claims by its advocates or by Ebony that it allows you to do anything you couldn't do without it.It's a matter of speed and convenience. However, it's like many camera features - quicker and easier is nothing to sneeze at and they're worth something to many people.

[John Hoang]

Joanna Carter
Quote:
And what if you need to place the plane of sharp focus where there is nothing on the asymmetric line?


Large format users usually apply different movements for different scenes. We do not use tilt, or shift, or swing... all the time. In your case, just do not use it!


Brian Ellis
Quote:
However, it's like many camera features - quicker and easier is nothing to sneeze at and they're worth something to many people.

Agree!

[Joanna Carter]

Large format users usually apply different movements for different scenes. We do not use tilt, or shift, or swing... all the time. In your case, just do not use it!
I too don't have to use movements, but when I do, I find that the "standard" movements are more than enough :D

[rdenney]

I did not buy my F/F2 because it had yaw-free or asymmetric movements. I bought it because it would easily accommodate a 47mm lens, and it was cheap.

Everything I've read about the yaw-free design (and also about the use of the markings on the Sinar ground glass) is that it is intended for product photography, especially where the monorail will need to be aimed down or up, necessitating the use of tilt controls to achieve rise and fall movements.

I have always used tilts and swings on the lens standard by visualizing the Scheimpflug relationship and then fine-tuning it based on what I see on the ground glass with a loupe. But I learned that on cameras without all these fancy features.

One thing I like about the base tilts of the Sinar: It makes the camera more compact compared to a camera with U-frames. And cameras with U-frames often interfere with other accessories, as was the case with my Cambo.

I think the main reason the Sinar P has the asymmetric control is to provide axis tilts without requiring U-frames. A side-bonus is that it maintains the yaw-free design by putting the tilt control underneath the swing control. Sometimes axis tilts are more convenient and have a smaller effect on overall focus.

Rick "suspecting that Sinar was devising an external mechanical process to make the trial-and-error loupe-based process seem more deterministic" Denney

[urs0polar]

Thanks urs0polar!! Better than answering my question about P/X, I now understand how my F2 is meant to work!!

no problem; when my P2 arrived, I was like whoa how do I use this thing. I randomly found that pdf and it's been invaluable.

[urs0polar]

I too don't have to use movements, but when I do, I find that the "standard" movements are more than enough :D

Joanna have you ever actually used a camera with front asymmetric movements? If not, then on what are you basing your analysis of faster/slower/enough? Maybe you have, but from reading your posts it seems like you haven't tried it yet. By the way, from your website, I really like your still life magnolia shots. It's pretty obvious you know what you're doing.

I have a Sinar P2 (base tilt and asymmetric tilt) and a Linhof Kardan GT (normal movements, base tilt as well as axis tilt)... you can do everything with both, but they are just different. On both, you can move the two planes (lens and film) around independent of each other.

On the p2, if i want to use a back tilt to get things in focus, i turn *one* knob until the two points I want are in focus... no refocusing, no guesstimating about where the scheimpflug line thingy is, none of that. just turn the knob.

If you want front tilt instead and you've done it right (i.e. your points are roughly in opposite corners and you've turned the knob correctly) and you aren't doing macro stuff, you just transfer the degree reading to the front asymmetric tilt, zero the back, and you are finished.

On the Kardan GT, you do the trial and error thing; at least I do. If you are super slick at that, then that's cool. I wish I was. I definitely need to practice more.

One difference in practical terms that I notice is that if I want to purposely get things *out* of focus for creative effect (heh), then the Linhof is easier for me to predict what will go out than the Sinar is... if I want everything *in* focus, then the Sinar is a lot more straightforward. Then again, the sinar does have base tilt, so if you haven't already used that for extended rise and fall or something, then you can do normal stuff there and just not use the asymmetric tilts.

I'm just a guy who likes this stuff, not a pro, but if I were doing product shots day in and day out, the asymmetric thing would be a Godsend. If I was just doing portraits and landscape, I don't think it's as critical.

my 2 cents.

[Joanna Carter]

Joanna have you ever actually used a camera with front asymmetric movements? If not, then on what are you basing your analysis of faster/slower/enough?
I have never used front asymmetric tilts but I have tried rear asymmetric tilts on a friend's Ebony 45SU. Also, the same friend and I were looking to take the same shot, at the same time, because the tide was rising rapidly, and I was set up and had taken the shot before he had even got the focus set

http://grandes-images.com/en/Landscape/Pages/France_2008_files/Media/ToulAnHeryBaliseDeChenal/ToulAnHeryBaliseDeChenal.jpg

My friend's problem was finding something that was on the asymmetric focusing line.


If you want front tilt instead and you've done it right (i.e. your points are roughly in opposite corners and you've turned the knob correctly) and you aren't doing macro stuff, you just transfer the degree reading to the front asymmetric tilt, zero the back, and you are finished.
And there you have the problem with asymmetric tilts in a nutshell; the points have to be in the right place on the screen, etc… With my Ebony SV45Te, I found that I learnt from the "school of life", finding out just what does and doesn't work, using mainly the front axis tilt for most landscape and architectural work. No scales, no gears, just a little tweak here, a little nudge there :o


On the Kardan GT, you do the trial and error thing; at least I do. If you are super slick at that, then that's cool. I wish I was. I definitely need to practice more.
I guess it's the same thing with or without asymmetric movements; practice makes perfect :cool:


… Then again, the sinar does have base tilt, so if you haven't already used that for extended rise and fall or something, then you can do normal stuff there and just not use the asymmetric tilts.
That's what I like about the Ebony SV45Te; base and axis tilt on both the front and rear standards, rise and fall on both, swing and shift on both and a bellows extension of over 500mm!!!

Of course, it's not as rigid as a Sinar, but then it does only weigh 3.3Kg and, of course, it's much more strokeable, being made of wood ;)


I'm just a guy who likes this stuff, not a pro, but if I were doing product shots day in and day out, the asymmetric thing would be a Godsend. If I was just doing portraits and landscape, I don't think it's as critical.
If I were doing product shots, I would definitely want something as precise as a Sinar; but, since I am not, I love my Ebony.

BTW, the Magnolia shots were taken on a Mamiya RZ67.

[urs0polar]

[..]

My friend's problem was finding something that was on the asymmetric focusing line.

[..]

And there you have the problem with asymmetric tilts in a nutshell; the points have to be in the right place on the screen, etc…

[...]

BTW, the Magnolia shots were taken on a Mamiya RZ67.

Yeah, finding things equidistant from the center is a bit of a pain... I didn't even know that this situation had a name .. the asymmetric line. cool.

My P2 is the 8x10, so it weighs about 22 pounds... not exactly a lightweight.

On the magnolia shots: My first film camera was a RB67, and it's kind of like LF without the distractions :P

[daytona]

I use Ebony SV45U2.It is no "front" asymmetric function. Rear asymmetric function is enough.