Use a scanner or a DSLR to scan slides and negs

[Rider]

I have several thousand 35mm, medium format and 4x5 slides and negatives of all types that I would like to scan.

For the 35mm, I have a Nikon Coolscan 5000 scanner, and for the medium format and 4x5 I have an Epson 4990.

Alternatively, I heard that it's possible to use a DSLR for this task.

Once I firgure out the best way to do it, I plan to hire someone to do the scanning using my equipment.

Is it better to use scanners or DSLRs for this task?

[Joanna Carter]

It all comes down to the numbers. Scanning a 4x5 can return a resolution of 2000-2400 ppi; taking a digital image on a 14 megapixel Canon G10 will yield a resolution of around 828 ppi.

[Marc B.]

I would have to ask, what's the end purpose of the digitized images?

If for historically archiving national treasures, then dedicated film scanning is appropriate. This is labor intensive, as you will need to preview the negatives to make/choose scanner profiles for each of the different film emulsion types to be scanned.

The DSLR approach would be quicker, but image quality may unacceptably suffer.

You may wish to outsource this project to sites like, Scan Cafe, FotoBridge, and others.


http://www.scancafe.com/

http://www.fotobridge.com/index.php

[Rider]

I want to get the maximum quality possible for archival. If I scan, I would use Vuescan to produce a "RAW" file (possibly with a 4th dust layer) that can be processed and adjusted later.

[Steve Smith]

My usual answer to questions like these is why? Are you intending to make several thousand prints or put several thousand images on a website?

If not, why not just scan them as and when you need them and take the time to get a good scan for each one you want to use rather than spending the rest of your life scanning images which will probably not be used.

Do not consider the file of a scan to be archival. The original slide or negative will probably outlive it by many years.


Steve.

[Joanna Carter]

Do not consider the file of a scan to be archival. The original slide or negative will probably outlive it by many years.
… and whatever you do, don't rely on CDs or DVDs for long term storage; the cheaper ones have been known to lose data after less than five years.

[Marko]

It all comes down to the numbers. Scanning a 4x5 can return a resolution of 2000-2400 ppi; taking a digital image on a 14 megapixel Canon G10 will yield a resolution of around 828 ppi.

On the other hand, taking a matrix of 1:1 macro shots using a real macro lens properly aligned, focused and lighted through and then stitching the results (which shouldn't be too taxing since it's the flat field) should yield somewhere between 3500 ppi for Canon 5dII and 5800 ppi for the newest APS-C Canon DSLRs.


Do not consider the file of a scan to be archival. The original slide or negative will probably outlive it by many years.

Why not? The Library of Congress is doing just that. I think they know what they are doing...

I agree with Joanna about the choice of storage medium, but that's another story altogether.

As for the rest, perhaps we should assume that the OP knows what he wants and why he wants it, and concentrate on trying to help him figure out how to do it if we can.

Marko

[Bob McCarthy]

Of the the two choices available, definately scanning.

My suggestion, not knowing what your archiving, or what your standards are, is to create categories of quality level. Commercial shots and "keepers" should be scanned on the highest end scanner available. Vuescan doesn't run on any high end commercial scanner that I know of.

Those of lesser value can be scanned on a consumer flatbed, with vuescan.

The not so valuable "memory" shots can be done with a dslr of adequate quality on a proper copy setup, knowing that will be great for TV slide shows or web use.

Digital archiving is a difficult subject because of the non permanence of storage materials. Though with active effort they can be refreshed every few years on new media with latest standards.

bob

[Steve Smith]

Why not? The Library of Congress is doing just that. I think they know what they are doing...

It doesn't matter how you store it, it's still an inferior copy of the original.



Steve.

[BetterSense]

I don't have a DSLR, but I have been very interested in DSLR scanning for several reasons:

Resolution: Consumer flatbeds cannot scan 35mm to high quality. I believe a macro shot with a DSLR may be able to do better, at least in resolution, and a DSLR would be more versatile than say a Nikon dedicated 35mm scanner. And it would be faster anyway.

Speed: It seems way faster to take a shot on a copy stand than to scan film. Scanning film is a major A-1 pain in the neck to me. It's so slow. And the image needs edited anyway. For putting stuff on the web, I want something that is easy. I would love to be able to take a shot of film or prints with a (tethered?) DSLR and have a more-or-less uploadable image.

[Bob Salomon]

Have you thought about doing it this way?
http://www.novoflex.com/en/products/macro-accessories/focusing-racks/castel-cop-digi/

[Rider]

Have you thought about doing it this way?
http://www.novoflex.com/en/products/macro-accessories/focusing-racks/castel-cop-digi/

I saw a write-up of someone using a RRS rail similar to this, which is what gave me the idea. It's not clear to me whether the Novoflex is selling everything you need (other than camera, lens and lighting).

[Bob Salomon]

I saw a write-up of someone using a RRS rail similar to this, which is what gave me the idea. It's not clear to me whether the Novoflex is selling everything you need (other than camera, lens and lighting).

The CASTELCOP DIGI slide copy attachment from Novoflex mounts directly into two holes on either some of the Novoflex focus rails (CATEL L; CASTEL Q or the CASTEL MINI) or into mounting holes on any of the current Novoflex bellows, including their fully automatic ones for SLR and DSLR cameras like Canon and Nikon.

So, if you use the CASTELCOP DIGI on one of Novoflex's focus rail above you would need a lens that goes to 1:1 and a good, constant light source like a Gepe Pro illuminator. If you use it on one of the Novoflex bellows then you just need a good lens, as the bellows will take you to 1:1, and a light source as above.

Up to a couple of years ago Novoflex also sold the lens for the bellows but except for lenses for the Novoflex tilt/shift bellows and the BALPRO 1 non tilt/shift they no longer do.

Bear in mind, the speed of capture this way is vastly faster then a scan. Each exposure could be 1/125 rather then minutes. The slow and repititious part of digitizing this way is inserting each slide at the proper spot. That is easily sped up by taping a couple of guides to the CASTELCOP DIGI so each mount is positioned at the same spot. Image quality is determined by lens quality and camera resolution.

Drawback to this method over scanning is that unlike a scanner loading is not automatic, the Braun 4000 scanner can accept up to 100 2x2 slides at a time and automatically scan them while you do something else, like sleep. Also, a DSLR does not have Digital ICE built-in like a Braun and other scanners do. So there may be more post processing by you when using a camera based system. On the other hand, post processing only has to be done when you print or select a slide for viewing so not all have to be done at once and perhaps none have to be done immediately.

[Rider]

I am considering everything you are all saying. I need to (i) see exactly how many slides and negs I have, (ii) estimate how long it would take to scan them with the Coolscan 5000. If the number of hours is just too long for my assistant to handle, then I may have to look into the DSLR approach which is quicker but (i) requires equipment that I don't have (inlcuding a proper lens, rail, soft-lighting; even my Nikon D700 is not ideal for this), (ii) does not allow for easy dust elimination (i.e. digital ICE), (iii) probably does not give the same color depth as the Coolscan 5000.

Maybe the compromise would be to get everything scanned in quickly with a DSLR, and then collate the winners digitally and if needed, scan with the Coolscan 5000.

Btw, thank you for pointing out the archival issue. What I have done is to create three copies of digital portfolio. Every couple of years I retire one hard drive and replace it with a new one. Periodically, I do a bit for bit comparison of two drives. Eventually, I will put another copy on blu-ray.

[Rider]

The CASTELCOP DIGI slide copy attachment from Novoflex mounts directly into two holes on either some of the Novoflex focus rails (CATEL L; CASTEL Q or the CASTEL MINI) or into mounting holes on any of the current Novoflex bellows, including their fully automatic ones for SLR and DSLR cameras like Canon and Nikon.

So, if you use the CASTELCOP DIGI on one of Novoflex's focus rail above you would need a lens that goes to 1:1 and a good, constant light source like a Gepe Pro illuminator. If you use it on one of the Novoflex bellows then you just need a good lens, as the bellows will take you to 1:1, and a light source as above.

Up to a couple of years ago Novoflex also sold the lens for the bellows but except for lenses for the Novoflex tilt/shift bellows and the BALPRO 1 non tilt/shift they no longer do.

For Americans spending dollars these days, Euro prices are really scary....but other than that it looks very nice. Would I be able to attach my Nikkor 135mm large format macro lens easily to this set-up? For lighting, a small Gepe Pro illuminator would do the trick?

[voigtf64]

Interesting thread, I use a canon 5d mk2 with pentax bellows and 100mm SMC bellows lens. I use the negative holders from my canon flat bed scanner and shoot horizontal with a white card set at 45 degrees behind the neg to disperse the daylight. focus is live view on my computer screen and color balance is tuned in software . this system is way better than any scanner i have used , it is a system i tried just by chance not expecting anything special, but it does a great job ,a constant light source would be an improvement.

[Peter De Smidt]

You might want to check out the following threads:
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=46876&highlight=dslr+scanning
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=47007&highlight=dslr+scan
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=48057&highlight=dslr+scanning

What I like about the Dslr approach, in theory anyway, is that it's fairly easy to make hardware adjustments that optimize the image capture. With most consumer scanners, most of the hardware variables are fixed, e.g. light source brightness, f stop, exposure time..., and the adjustments mainly are software manipulations of the captured data. As a result, these scanner capture a huge range a values, with the actual image data taking up a small portion. With a Dslr, you can change lenses, f-stops, shutter speed, light source color and intensity, and you can use multiple exposures on really tricky negatives. The difficulties with the Dslr approach will be alignment and film flatness.

[Rider]

Interesting thread, I use a canon 5d mk2 with pentax bellows and 100mm SMC bellows lens. I use the negative holders from my canon flat bed scanner and shoot horizontal with a white card set at 45 degrees behind the neg to disperse the daylight. focus is live view on my computer screen and color balance is tuned in software . this system is way better than any scanner i have used , it is a system i tried just by chance not expecting anything special, but it does a great job ,a constant light source would be an improvement.

That's awesome! I love making use of what one already has. How do you make sure it all lines up properly (don't you need some kind of a rail?). And can you describe your light set-up a bit more? How about using a Gepe Pro illuminator, which I think would be only around $50. Also check-out this article, which might have some tips to improve the workflow and exposure. http://www.dpbestflow.org/camera-scan-workflow

[Rider]

You might want to check out the following threads:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=47007&highlight=dslr+scan
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=47007&highlight=dslr+scan
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=47007&highlight=dslr+scan

Much appreciated...that is just one thread though!

[Peter De Smidt]

Much appreciated...that is just one thread though!

Sorry about that. I fixed the links in my original post.

[Bob Salomon]

I am considering everything you are all saying. I need to (i) see exactly how many slides and negs I have, (ii) estimate how long it would take to scan them with the Coolscan 5000. If the number of hours is just too long for my assistant to handle, then I may have to look into the DSLR approach which is quicker but (i) requires equipment that I don't have (inlcuding a proper lens, rail, soft-lighting; even my Nikon D700 is not ideal for this), (ii) does not allow for easy dust elimination (i.e. digital ICE), (iii) probably does not give the same color depth as the Coolscan 5000.

Maybe the compromise would be to get everything scanned in quickly with a DSLR, and then collate the winners digitally and if needed, scan with the Coolscan 5000.

Btw, thank you for pointing out the archival issue. What I have done is to create three copies of digital portfolio. Every couple of years I retire one hard drive and replace it with a new one. Periodically, I do a bit for bit comparison of two drives. Eventually, I will put another copy on blu-ray.

You must have the light source. It can be an illuminator or even a strobe that is properly diffused. Or an evenly lit neutral colored wall.

[Bob Salomon]

For Americans spending dollars these days, Euro prices are really scary....but other than that it looks very nice. Would I be able to attach my Nikkor 135mm large format macro lens easily to this set-up? For lighting, a small Gepe Pro illuminator would do the trick?

Yes to both if you use the BALPRO 1 or BALPRO T/S bellows system with the proper adapters.

[Bob Salomon]

That's awesome! I love making use of what one already has. How do you make sure it all lines up properly (don't you need some kind of a rail?). And can you describe your light set-up a bit more? How about using a Gepe Pro illuminator, which I think would be only around $50. Also check-out this article, which might have some tips to improve the workflow and exposure. http://www.dpbestflow.org/camera-scan-workflow

Everthing lines up because the CASTELCOP DIGI rails fit into the holes in the CASTEL focus racks or the Novoflex bellows systems and lock in place when you have the CASTELCOP DIGI at the desired position. The only trick is to put a couple of guide strips where you want the slide centered on the CASTELCOP DIGI. The clips on the CASTELCOP DIGI will hold the slide mount or film in the proper position.

Yes the Gepe Pro boxes will work bu if you are looking at the smaller ones, 4x5 or 5x7 lit area, be aware that the AC adapter is now an accessory and not included with these two units. That changed April 1.

[voigtf64]

expanding on my previous post my studio has a glass roof which i control with curtains ,
everything i shoot is daylight so it didn,t occur to me to otherwise with this system. So with the light coming from above the white card at 45 degrees is an even light source.
I have copied 35mm 120 6x7 6x9 5x4 and 10x8 negs with this system , shutting down to f8 cuts out any dof issues , using the canon software means i can go to 5X 10X zooms on screen to focus, I have just about recorded my film archive,otherwise i would have made a less heath robinson system. great links Rider and Peter
http://www.flickr.com/photos/voigtf64/

[Rider]

expanding on my previous post my studio has a glass roof which i control with curtains ,
everything i shoot is daylight so it didn,t occur to me to otherwise with this system. So with the light coming from above the white card at 45 degrees is an even light source.
I have copied 35mm 120 6x7 6x9 5x4 and 10x8 negs with this system , shutting down to f8 cuts out any dof issues , using the canon software means i can go to 5X 10X zooms on screen to focus, I have just about recorded my film archive,otherwise i would have made a less heath robinson system. great links Rider and Peter
http://www.flickr.com/photos/voigtf64/

I like your photostream. The 6x6 frost and tree shots are especially mesmerizing.

Without appearing too dense, can I ask two questions:

(1) Do you shield the neg from light coming directly through the glass ceiling, so that all light comes from the back off the card?

(2) I assume you use some kind of rail system to keep everything nice and even?

Btw, that sounds like a nice set-up for a studio!

[voigtf64]

Rider, thanks for your comments, no light shielding necessary, and the neg holder is securely fixed to a work surface and the camera is on a tripod clamped to the work surface. The most important bit is to have a bellows set up that has the two sets of rails that is front and back focus on the top and everything back and forth on the bottom rails .Also two possible alternatives are a computer screen at a distance behind the neg as a light source with your browser on a blank page and using a tile cutter as a parallel set of rails . http://www.flickr.com/photos/voigtf64/