Options for a shutter for a small Petzval

[Kirk Gittings]

I've got a couple of these that I want to try out, mounting them on a Phillips 4x5. Besides a Packard are there other options? Outside diameter is 51.6mm.

[Dan Fromm]

Depending on the lenses' focal lengths and apertures, front mounting on a Copal #1 or larger or an Alphax/Betax/Ilex #3 or larger may be practical. But a mount adapter won't be dirt cheap.

I recently had a small misadventure with an oscilloscope camera Ilex #3 that held a 75/1.9 OscilloParagon. Nice shutter, even ran reasonably on speed, but the diaphragm was limited to 28 mm, not the usual 34.6.

[Pete Roody]

Kirk,

You can use a front mount 'Luc' shutter or an equivalent. The have three screws that tighten to the barrel. You just missed a couple on the FS page. See Maurits's sale for a photo. His were branded 'Paris' if I remember correctly.

[Pete Roody]

Link for Maurits' ad:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=74995

[IanG]

Thornton Pickard shutter either on the front of the lens or a "Between=Lens" version (their 1890's term) which fits between lens board & lens.

I'm just restoring 6 at the moment, three are larger than usual and fit 70-80mm diameter lenses. They were made from the late 1880's through to around the early 1960's and were sold by B&J in the US before WWII (with a B&J name on them).

Great shutters, I have about 11 or 12 at present and one's off to be matched to a Darlot for Wet plate work.

Interestingly TP shutters were designed to be retro-fitted to earlier lenses right from the start, they are Roller blind, easy to restore and quite accurate, they are mechanically timed (by tension) from 1/15 to 1/90, slower with a pneumatic release/valve (needs some experimentation as well) as T - also used for focussing.

http://lostlabours.co.uk/photography/cameras/images/QP_shutter.jpg

or

http://lostlabours.co.uk/photography/cameras/images/hp0024.jpg

Some UK members here have seen/heard some of my shutters in action :D

Ian

[Graybeard]

A front mount (entire lens goes in front of the shutter, you use the original iris) would probably work for you. S. K. Grimes will make an adaptor for $75-$100 with you providing a shutter (sadly they have a two month turnaround for this work but their quality is beyond reproach). An Aphax #4 or Ilex #4 shutter would probably be best but I believe that you could make this work with a #3 in either make.

Another alternative, particularly cost effective if your intention is to get some idea of the properties of the lenses before you commit to any major expense, is to use a front shutter. For this, the shutter goes where you would put a filter ring, up front (you can use a skylight filter outboard to protect the shutter leaves). How you put the shutter on there is up to your ingenuity and what plumbing fittings you can find at your hardware store and what cardboard and black tape you have on hand.

I suggest that you have a good look at the S. K Grimes website for a more detailed discussion.

An advantage of either of these approaches is that you will have a shutter that fires at a speeds greater than the 1/15th sec (thereabouts) of a Packard.

I am able do some of my own machine work and have fitted a number of Artars and Clarons to #3 and #4 shutters in front mounts. I have also fitted a Ronar 760 mm with an Ilex #4 in a front mounted shutter for my Deardorff. I find these perfectly practical for landscape work and nature photography.

Good light-

[Mark Sawyer]

Greybeard has a good suggestion with using a conventional shutter on the front. If I remember right, the Ilex #4 has a 58mm standard filter thread front and rear. Remove the glass from a few 58mm filters to form a short tube (or order a 58mm extender or rigid lens hood), and line it with black felt on the inside to shim it down to your front barrel diameter.

[Brian C. Miller]

For the "cheap seats" there's the home-made guillotine shutter, two darkslides, or black cardboard with a slot in it.

[Jim Galli]

What Mark said, but use a modern Copal 3 that you've already got. A 58mm filter (sans glass), in the back of the Copal 3 and some Velcro would be pretty slick. When you're done simply put the 5.6 300 cells back in for safer keeping.

[mandoman7]

I have an Ilex 5 with threads for the cells that just happen to be slightly larger than my 5" petzval projection lens After applying a couple of layers of black tape on the lens it fit nice and snug, and worked perfectly. The main benefit might be that I could experiment with the lens before investing in various adapters.

[leighmarrin]

I've used a 360mm/f5.5 Tele-Xenar in a Compound shutter to briefly mount similar barrel lenses up to about 55mm in diameter. I took all of the glass out, then used the long empty barrel to support the smaller lens. Wrapped the base of the small lens with tape, stuck it in the empty Xenar barrel, then wrapped about six feet of boot lace around the lens to fill in the tapered barrel, and covered the mouth of the mess with a lotta tape... Klugey! But worked fine, and gave me flash synch.

[Kirk Gittings]

Thanks guys. I guess I would like to find a shutter large enough and juryrig it on the front just to see if I like the lens and If I do have SKG make a proper adapter. From what I have seen shutters this big like an Ilex 4 are seldom seen on Ebay.

[Chauncey Walden]

Kirk, your easiest option for a shutter for these (and other small barrel lenses) may be a Speed Graphic;-) Hope to see you at the reception next month.

[domaz]

There's always the Sinar shutter. One my petzvals front hood is the perfect size that I can just slip the Sinar Shutter over it so that it's basically front-mounted. It's a big heavy shutter though and it would work better with a real Sinar camera.

[mandoman7]

Thanks guys. I guess I would like to find a shutter large enough and juryrig it on the front just to see if I like the lens and If I do have SKG make a proper adapter. From what I have seen shutters this big like an Ilex 4 are seldom seen on Ebay.
While the price on ebay for Ilex shutters seems high sometimes (if available), the price for lenses with good working shutters is surprisingly low at other times. I recently got a 14" commercial ektar for $225 there and I've seen others go in this range. As mentioned before, a bit of tape was all that it took to get the shutter mounted to my 5" petzval. So in addition to getting a good 8x10 lens (that's easily re-sellable), I've gotten a useful shutter for petzvals from a fairly small investment.:)

[maurits]

Kirk, this is my set up now. My adapter consists of three nylon screws. About $ 1. I am sure SKG will charge you more for an adapter. Works for multiple lenses and triggers my flashes remotely...

Cheers, Maurits

[Kirk Gittings]

Kirk, your easiest option for a shutter for these (and other small barrel lenses) may be a Speed Graphic;-) Hope to see you at the reception next month.

Chauncey, Thanks. I hope to see you there. I've thought of that but I would really not like to have to haul around an extra camera.

[Kirk Gittings]

There's always the Sinar shutter. One my petzvals front hood is the perfect size that I can just slip the Sinar Shutter over it so that it's basically front-mounted. It's a big heavy shutter though and it would work better with a real Sinar camera.

Thanks, I've thought of that. It is a bit pricey and cumbersome for what I have in mind. I am only using small 4x5 field cameras these day.

[Kirk Gittings]

Kirk, this is my set up now. My adapter consists of three nylon screws. About $ 1. I am sure SKG will charge you more for an adapter. Works for multiple lenses and triggers my flashes remotely...

Cheers, Maurits

Sorry for my ignorance, but what shutter is that?

[maurits]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what shutter is that?

It is an old Max Görgen München (MGM) shutter. Basically the same design as a LUC shutter, Central shutter and Trixale from London.

I cleaned it, made the existing screw hole larger and added two more, cut thread in all for the nylon screws, replaced the tiny screws around the lid, installed a flash sync and binding posts from a worn down shutter, added a plastic hot shoe adapter for the Elinchrom Skyport wireless flash trigger, spray painted the housing etc. Better than new now... :)

Cheers, Maurits

[cyberjunkie]

It is an old Max Görgen München (MGM) shutter. Basically the same design as a LUC shutter, Central shutter and Trixale from London.


These shutters are known in Italy as "Silens". I don't know if they were sold in Germany with the same name.
Here is a picture of one of the bigger sizes, fitted behind the lensboard, on an old giant studio camera (that i'd love to buy!).
The three positions knob (Open shutter, Bulb, Instant) was replaced by a sprocket/chain system, to operate the shutter from the front of the camera.
As far as i remember, the small sizes have just three radial holes, those that you used to fit the nice nylon screws for front mounting. The bigger sizes have two more front holes, that can be used to fit the shutter to a big lensboard (as in the picture).
The quality of the photo was abysmal, and i had to resize it for posting, so the brand logo on the shutter is barely visible. It should be clear enough to be discernible. Does your shutter have the same logo?

Whatever the identification, i think that these Silens shutter are one of the best solutions for barrel lenses. I don't have a Luc shutter, but i own a Zettor, that's very similar: my example has no attachment for a shutter release, not a small problem IMHO. A good mechanic should be able to fit one, but it won't be cheap. Overall quality is not very impressive. Can't comment about Luc shutters cause i don't own one, and i have no idea about their mechanical quality.
Many forum users recommend Packard shutters, that seem to be quite common in the USA, and very rare here in the EU, but Internet is changing everything...
Packards need a pneumatic release, and many don't even have the "instant" setting.
Few available sizes, too. On the other hand, Silens shutters can be found in a wide choice of diameters, and can be operated the Packard's way, or by means of a conventional cable release (must have enough throw, though).

Two more choices, one common and very "vintage", and the other difficult to find and not-so-old:
1) Thornton Pickard "curtain" shutters. Produced for a long span of time, they can work quite well, if not too old and properly stored. I like their nice old fashioned look, but i just found the hard way that old stuff can break very easily: the curtains get brittle and very fragile with time, and the two strips that are glued to the spool can literally disintegrate under the traction applied by a rather strong spring. Every time the shutter is released you hear a very noisy "clack"! The strong inertial forces could also cause a slight degree of blur, with the slower speeds. Even the Copal/Sinar shutter is said to have this problem! Nevertheless, a nice working TP shutter can be a nice, easy-to-adapt solution for medium/small sized Petzvals and for most Rapid Rectilinears.
2) i found on the bay a Plaubel behind-the-lens shutter for Peco Universal - that's how the item was called, liberally translated from german language - that looks as a cheaper, simpler copy of the Sinar shutter. The shutter can be operated by any standard cable release, unlike the Sinar, but has no timed exposure, just B and a lever to open the shutter for focusing. If there is a way to set it to "Instant", well... i still have to find it!
I have no experience of Plaubel monorail cameras, but i guess that the shutter is fitted to the front standard in place of the lensboard, which in turn is attached to the front of the shutter itself.
I payed a very reasonable price for it, much less than a Sinar. It is true that the Plaubel shutter is a lot simpler and less flexible, but i guess that it should be also easier to fit to a camera of different brand, for its construction.
If you find one, i'm sure it will work forever, it's built like a tank!

have fun

CJ