Judging Print Quality in Remote Areas

[SteveH]

Hi Guys
As I currently live in a remote area of Aus, I don't get exposure to the exhibitions of quality prints by past/present masters that you folk in the US and Europe seem to encounter regularly. Even in the capital cities here the pickings can be quite slim.
I have a decent book collection and get B&W magazine irregularly and attended a John Sexton workshop 15 years ago when he was in Aus. but how do folk without regular exposure to high quality original prints manage to judge the print quality of their own work. I know that offset prints can be pretty good these days but am interested in anyone's thoughts on the subject.

cheers
Steve
_________________________________________
Shooting film but now scanning and printing digital.

[MIke Sherck]

You just have to go with the books and (to a lesser extent,) magazines you can find. The only magazine I know of with adequate reproduction for this purpose is "Lenswork"; the quality of reproduction is superb. For books, look at reviews so you can weight the quality of reproduction: some are excellent, others are so-so in quality. Pay more attention to those books known to be of excellent quality.

You can also participate in print exchanges with other photographers. Keep in mind, though, that not only do skill and experience vary quite a bit but each of us has a mental image of what we think a photograph "should" look like, which may not agree with what you're after. Still, with enough examples you ought to be able to gain experience.

Mike

[BetterSense]

Prints have many qualities.

Why don't you look at your prints and decide what you don't like about them? What is gained by looking at others' prints? You can't even change them if you don't like what you see...

[SteveH]

Thanks Mike
I haven't seen lenswork, although it's reputation preceeds it. I love the books by John Sexton (his repro work will probably always exceed the best of my originals), Peter Dombrovskis (Aussie colour landscapes; subtle and without the cliches usually associated with Aus photography) and Micheal Kenna.
I was, during times past, more entrenched in big cities and that helped to inform my silver print making.
I've recently switched to digital scanning of 5x4" B&W and inkjet printing and since moving to the country I think I've only seen one 'take home' exhibition of inkjet printing in the last 5 years; all in colour. And since moving to Nati its a 4-5 hour drive to see any good art galleries at all (although the town does try).

B&W magazine continues to inspire but I'd like to hear from others who manage to produce fine prints in any medium who don't have regular access to others' work.

cheers
Steve

[SteveH]

Prints have many qualities.

Why don't you look at your prints and decide what you don't like about them? What is gained by looking at others' prints? You can't even change them if you don't like what you see...

BS
How do I know the possibilities obtainable if I don't look at work better than my own by those more experienced? I look at my prints now and don't like what I see compared to my monitor but that's an unreasonable comparison.
I'm embarking into the unknown with a new medium (inkjet). I don't want to be working in a vacuum.
Its too easy to become complacent and assume that you're at the top of your game if you don't see the work of others as a contrast.
I want to produce work that is of a universally high standard, not just stuff I like cos I don't know better.
Thanks for your input though
cheers
Steve

[Lenny Eiger]

Steve, I think your best bet is books. You may even have a library? that can order books from another library's catalog so you don't have to buy something unless you want to...

I no longer subscribe to Lenswork. The printing is so dark and gloomy, I got depressed every time I saw a copy. I don't really want to live in that world. I know John Sexton and like him personally, but I don't like his printing style (or his propensity to center everything).

These statements re totally subjective and no one has to agree with me... I am not saying anyone else is wrong or trying to set the rules in any way whatsoever.

I looked at my collection and here are some books that are printed well, in my opinion.

Stieglitz - this is the big one, by the National Gallery of Art
Perkis - the Sadness of Men (amazing photographer)
PhotoHistorica - Collections from the Royal Photographic Society
Pictorial Photography in Britain - my favorite but a little obscure thing you likely won't find
(pretty much any book on the PhotoSecession era)
Strand's books are all well done
Caponigro
Frederick Evans - Aperture Monograph - one of the folks who understood light better than most
Books on Frances Frith, Beato and Samuel Bourne
William Crawford's Keepers of the Light is very interesting

There are more, but I'd give these a try. I would look at anything that isn't printed on glossy paper. They usually try harder to get it right..

These selections will show a decided interest in a lighter and softer printing style.

It's one option...

Lenny

[Erik Larsen]

Steve, I know how you feel. I kind of live in analogue purgatory as well. No "real good" galleries within a few hundred miles. There are a few ego galleries with artist pushing their own wares, but little chance to see what are considered historically as top notch printing. Books from the masters, print exchanges for the diversity of work and just printing a lot to please myself is about all I can do without making the distant museums/galleries a destination vacation.

regards
erik

[Thebes]

If you plan photo travel, try to include a side-trip to a photographic museum or a world class photography broker . Andrew Smith Gallery in Santa Fe comes to mind as an excellent example, well worth a day of any photographer's time to visit. There is no good substitute for seeing the actual prints of the world's finest photographers.

Aside from that, buy prints that you can afford from photographers you find inspiring, then resell them when you can get nothing more from viewing them. Or post in the classifieds asking to borrow work-prints and you'll probably have a few offers.

[jp]

Alfred Stieglitz: The Key Set - Volume I & II is a nice quality pair of books with tons of photos reproduced very well. It's 1100 pages and <$100 US. I don't know how it's done without losing money.

I will concur with Lenny that the Paul Caponigro books and mentioned Evans book are well done.

The print exchange here is VERY worthwhile too. I did it and got a mix of FB, RC, Inkjet photos of a variety of methods and styles.

Galleries and museums are good, but not always predictable. Sometimes museum exhibits are dim to protect the oldest photos, but are still worth seeing if it's not too out of the way. Galleries can be good; I was really impressed with a a local gallery's exhibit of big Karsh portraits. Really ups the game for B&W printing and lighting.

[SteveH]

Got forwarded this the other day.
Only about 3 hours drive away

http://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au/news/local/news/general/american-dreams-come-to-bendigo/2120741.aspx

I can finally see some of the original images you guys keep talking about.

Sooo excited :D

cheers
Steve

[Frank Petronio]

I don't know if a college photo show will be helpful, some people with Master's Degrees in photography are lousy with print quality. It isn't something being emphasized in photo schools as much these days.

But ~good~ prints are much richer than any reproductions, and if you are like a lot of the amateurs I've seen, you may not be getting the entire range of tones possible with inkjet or traditional materials. I remember seeing some Edward Weston prints early on and being shocked at how deep and dark the blacks were, and how everything was crisp and just "snapped". Where as I was making too timid, flatter prints, just like most of the other people in those beginner and intermediate photo classes.

In general, I think looking at the classic large format landscape photographers' prints (Ansel Adams, etc.) will motivate you to up the contrast and print bolder in general.

When I would teach Photoshop, one of the harder concepts for users to accept was that most pictures should have a black point and a white point. It's a good starting point.

When I did that Blurb book for this forum and people would send me files, only about 20% of them were acceptable as-is, most were grey mushy sh!t. No offense to anyone but that is why I wouldn't do offer to do a book design again, the quality level is just too abysmal.

[atlcruiser]

I just took a workshop with Michael A Smith and Paula Chamlee. I brought with me some of what I considered my best prints....In the immortal words of Frank..they were grey mushy sh!t when compared to their prints. I switched to Lodima paper and amidol and suddenly I have good looking prints. Of ourse they are not even in the ballpark of what Michael and Paula make but can at least see the possibilities with the process.

I am sure there are many ways to get to a final product but I too have had a hard time deciding what looks good in my own work. Not only what looks good or bad but why it looks good or bad.

Michael and Paula both have some very nice books at reasonble prices as does Clyde Butcher whose prints also like. Might be worth while looking for that level of work.

[Bill_1856]

In the whole world there only a handfull of people who can print like Adams and Weston, etc. (I am not one of them.)
So it doesn't matter if your prints are wonderful or not. If they make you happy that's all that counts.
If you are unsatisfied you may not be able to "fix" it yourself. I don't think that you can learn from books and videeos -- you may need to find a workshop or private tutor and spend the money and time to travel to "the big city" for some hands-on teaching/learning by an expert.

[William McEwen]

Wow, a lot of the heavy hitters. Sounds good! I wonder, however, if Stieglitz will be represented -- as he is so often -- by Camera Work gravures. It's not his strong work.

[SteveH]

I don't know if a college photo show will be helpful, some people with Master's Degrees in photography are lousy with print quality. It isn't something being emphasized in photo schools as much these days.

But ~good~ prints are much richer than any reproductions, and if you are like a lot of the amateurs I've seen, you may not be getting the entire range of tones possible with inkjet or traditional materials. I remember seeing some Edward Weston prints early on and being shocked at how deep and dark the blacks were, and how everything was crisp and just "snapped". Where as I was making too timid, flatter prints, just like most of the other people in those beginner and intermediate photo classes.

Frank
I don't think there's much in this exhibition that would be termed a "college show"!!!
Also I'm no amateur, I worked in the industry with some of the best (in my region) for almost 20 years before leaving to do a geo-spatial degree.

I do get your point though that looking at some of these Adam's & Weston's prints may not usefully inform my own print making.
Whilst they were the best of their age we have to admit that the world has moved on and we have a 'new era' of print making; not necessarily better or worse but certainly different media from most in this exhibition.

Nonetheless I still intend to be a serial pest at this exhibition until either my brain leaks sensioimetric fluid or I get forcefully removed from the gallery.

cheers
Steve

[SteveH]

Wow, a lot of the heavy hitters. Sounds good! I wonder, however, if Stieglitz will be represented -- as he is so often -- by Camera Work gravures. It's not his strong work.

William
thanks for the heads up there - I'll keep my eyes open
cheers
Steve

[Peter De Smidt]

Another way is to join print exchanges with the best photographers that you can find. Yes, you will get a lot of so so prints, but you can also get some really good prints. I ran one for years, and there were some very nice prints exchanged.

Another option would be to have one of your images optimized and printed by someone who clearly knows what he or she is doing. For example, with digital work that could be John Cone, Lenny Eiger, Paul Roark, Tyler Boley.... If you need traditional printing, then perhaps Tim Rudman, Les McLean, Bob Carnie ... could make you a print.

[sanking]

BS

Its too easy to become complacent and assume that you're at the top of your game if you don't see the work of others as a contrast.
I want to produce work that is of a universally high standard, not just stuff I like cos I don't know better.
Thanks for your input though
cheers
Steve

Steve,

I congratulate you on your desire to work at a high standard and in order to do so you do indeed need to see a lot of original work to know where you stand. And I would suggest that you look not only at inkjet but other media such as silver gelatin and historical processes from the 19the century, such as albumen, pt/pd, carbon transfer, etc, some that survive today because they are preserved by a small but passionate number of devotees. The only way to see some of this work is in museums, and that is just as true in the US as in Australia or other remote areas.

Some reproductions of photographs in books are well done, but others are remarkably mediocre, and the bottom line is that unless you know the original work itself reproductions in books may be misleading and give one an inaccurate idea of the original. A false idea is in some respects worse than no idea at all.

But you are so right about people being complacent with their work because they don't really know what the best work looks like.

Also, a understanding of the various artistic manifestions of photography would be useful to help you put any work in context, either within its time or as part of the greater whole.

Good luck in seeking out and viewing and learning from the best work, and from the best writings about photography.

Sandy King

[tgtaylor]

Well one thing to consider is that if you perfect your printing to fully and completely meet your expectations, then you have truly found your personal vision.

Thomas

[jp]

When I did that Blurb book for this forum and people would send me files, only about 20% of them were acceptable as-is, most were grey mushy sh!t. No offense to anyone but that is why I wouldn't do offer to do a book design again, the quality level is just too abysmal.

When you said "grey mushy sh!t", a favorite image of mine came to mind. The web and book printing both have absolutely ruined it. If you're realllllllllly lucky you might find a fair reproduction of this in a book.

Maximize your browser and Google image search for Stieglitz "hand of man" and awe in the entire screen full of dirty grey mushy 5hit. 20% acceptable is far better than what I see here.

[mdm]

There is a black and a white in that photograph, which is what Frank was talking about.

[Barry Kirsten]

There are also nearby galleries. Horsham used to have good photography exhibits from time to time (I've exhibited there myself). Some private galleries like Gold Street Studios in Trentham East, specialise in B&W fine art; there is currently an exhibition of David Tatnall's work there (his landscape work is always worth seeing). A little further away, Monash Gallery in Melb. sometimes has good B&W - years ago they had a combined Adams/Weston show which was a knockout. (BTW is Natimuk really remote?:p )

Barry.

[Chuck Pere]

Sounds like you already know what a good B&W darkroom print looks like but are not sure about digital printing. I wonder who are the current Adams/Weston equivalents in today's B&W digital printing? Those are the people who's work you want to look at.

[SteveH]

Wow, a lot of the heavy hitters. Sounds good! I wonder, however, if Stieglitz will be represented -- as he is so often -- by Camera Work gravures. It's not his strong work.

William; the work by all photogrophers except Curtis was original silver prints. Curtis's were gravures. Many of the prints were much smaller than I expected and the lighting was rather dim so I maybe didn't 'see' some prints as well as I would have liked.

Barry - 4 1/2 hours drive to Melbourne or 3+ hours to Gold Street is remote enough!
Even 2 1/2 hours to Bendigo is a long drive.

The real measure of remoteness however would be that at least 1/3 of residents here signed a petition against the new public art instalation in the town (no nudity or challenging themes at all). That conservativeness is what I call remote!:(

cheers
Steve

[SteveH]

Steve,

I congratulate you on your desire to work at a high standard and in order to do so you do indeed need to see a lot of original work to know where you stand. And I would suggest that you look not only at inkjet but other media such as silver gelatin and historical processes from the 19the century, such as albumen, pt/pd, carbon transfer, etc, some that survive today because they are preserved by a small but passionate number of devotees. The only way to see some of this work is in museums, and that is just as true in the US as in Australia or other remote areas.

Some reproductions of photographs in books are well done, but others are remarkably mediocre, and the bottom line is that unless you know the original work itself reproductions in books may be misleading and give one an inaccurate idea of the original. A false idea is in some respects worse than no idea at all.

But you are so right about people being complacent with their work because they don't really know what the best work looks like.

Also, a understanding of the various artistic manifestions of photography would be useful to help you put any work in context, either within its time or as part of the greater whole.

Good luck in seeking out and viewing and learning from the best work, and from the best writings about photography.

Sandy King

Thanks Sandy
I'm certainly keen to go down the alternative process path at some point; I see inkjet as an intermediate stage ultimately. But I need to perfect this before moving on.
I have seen a lot of complacency in some of the "artistic" photo exhibitions in this country. The most damaging attitude, which I have have seen repeatedly is this idea that a 'real' artist shouldn't be constrained by learning the technical aspects of their craft. Real post-modernist $^#*!


tgtaylor - "if you perfect your printing to fully and completely meet your expectations, then you have truly found your personal vision"

My father 'perfects his photography to fully and completely meet his expectations' and I can't remember the last time I saw a shot of his that was even in focus.
Without a critical attitude and the experience of seriously appraising the work of those of a higher standard to inform your criticism, you run the risk that your standards may never get beyond a certain self congratulatory complacency.

You NEVER truly find your personal vision. It is a quest without end. The best you can do with any work is to feel that you have taken a single step further along the path. That is the path I will take, I'm not interested in end-points.

[Barry Kirsten]

Barry - 4 1/2 hours drive to Melbourne or 3+ hours to Gold Street is remote enough!
Even 2 1/2 hours to Bendigo is a long drive.

The real measure of remoteness however would be that at least 1/3 of residents here signed a petition against the new public art instalation in the town (no nudity or challenging themes at all). That conservativeness is what I call remote!:(


Steve, I sympathise with you. In the 80s the Horsham gallery was the seat of a vibrant arts community and it was easy to get access to the photography collection for study purposes. There were also regular photography shows - always something of interest happening for photographers.

You probably know Brian Murray (Horsham Colour), an excellent photography contact with a lifetime's experience. If not, it would be worth your while getting to know him, although he's never worked in LF to my knowledge. If you see him, give him my regards, I intend to call in on him fairly soon.

Cheers,

Barry.

[SteveH]

Steve, I sympathise with you. In the 80s the Horsham gallery was the seat of a vibrant arts community and it was easy to get access to the photography collection for study purposes. There were also regular photography shows - always something of interest happening for photographers.

You probably know Brian Murray (Horsham Colour), an excellent photography contact with a lifetime's experience. If not, it would be worth your while getting to know him, although he's never worked in LF to my knowledge. If you see him, give him my regards, I intend to call in on him fairly soon.

Cheers,

Barry.

Hi Barry
you seem to be more familiar with Horsham than I am.
I may have to go and chat to the Hosham gallery curators.

I was impressed with Brian's collection of Graflexes though so I guess he's done some LF.
I was less than impressed with Horsham Colour's service as a lab though.
Early on I went in and asked if they processed 5x4 E-6 on premises and they said yes they have a dip & dunk machine.
Surprised, I came back a few weeks later and asked again "do you process E-6 5x4" on premises?"
Again I was told "Yes we have a dip and dunk, we can do push-pulls etc."
Having no choice but to believe them I went home and returned with about 5 months of accumulated E-6 work and checked that they could do all this on premises including push - pulls. I was assured it was all OK.
The next morning I recieved a very worried message asking if I REALLY wanted all of this E-6 film cross-processed as C-41 because they only have a C-41 processor!
Grrrr! :mad:
At least they called to check I supose!:confused:
cheers
Steve

[Barry Kirsten]

Hi Barry
you seem to be more familiar with Horsham than I am.
I may have to go and chat to the Hosham gallery curators.

I was impressed with Brian's collection of Graflexes though so I guess he's done some LF.
I was less than impressed with Horsham Colour's service as a lab though.
Early on I went in and asked if they processed 5x4 E-6 on premises and they said yes they have a dip & dunk machine.
Surprised, I came back a few weeks later and asked again "do you process E-6 5x4" on premises?"
Again I was told "Yes we have a dip and dunk, we can do push-pulls etc."
Having no choice but to believe them I went home and returned with about 5 months of accumulated E-6 work and checked that they could do all this on premises including push - pulls. I was assured it was all OK.
The next morning I recieved a very worried message asking if I REALLY wanted all of this E-6 film cross-processed as C-41 because they only have a C-41 processor!
Grrrr! :mad:
At least they called to check I supose!:confused:
cheers
Steve

Hi Steve,

Yes I lived in Natimuk in the 80s when I taught at the High School. I met Brian then and we spent lots of time sharing our interest in photography. His collection of Graflexes probably dates from his first experience with photography when he left school and took his first steps in commercial photography (when about 17, I think). At that time all his work was in B&W and I think he used the Graflexes then. I don't recall him using anything other than his lovely collection of 'Blads and Leica Ms for landscape work. I have a lovely print of one of his landscapes on my study wall, from a retrospective he had in the late 90s, done with the Leica. He knows how to print!

Boy, you had a rough deal with your chromes! It may be that Brian is taking a back seat these days - I know that sort of thing wouldn't have happened if you had dealt directly with him.

Cheers,

Baz.

[SteveH]

"The real measure of remoteness however would be that at least 1/3 of residents here signed a petition against the new public art instalation in the town (no nudity or challenging themes at all). That conservativeness is what I call remote"

Just sounds like Utah and many small towns in many places.

I guess I should be glad that 1/3 of the residents don't have more than one wife then! :p

[David Karp]

Steve,

Frequent this site: http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/blog_index.html/the_online_photographer/blog_index.html

Periodically, he has offers of photographs by well-known photographers at very very reasonable prices. One offer earlier this year was a series of black and white photos of Paris made by Peter Turnley and printed in the darkroom by Voja Mitrovic (who once printed photos for Cartier-Bresson).

Another was a choice of two color photos by Charles Cramer printed by ink jet.

Between the two, you get a great sense of the possibilities of the two different types of printing, and can see how good these prints are.

Mike Johnston, who runs the site, makes a few offers each year. You have to keep your eye on the site, because the sales are only open for a short time.

[Jim Noel]

I wold say that your situation makes you a prime candidate for the regular print swaps which take place on this site. You will get prints from mediocre to superior and learn to distinguish between them. They will give you excellent tools with which to compare your work.

[SteveH]

David and Jim
both good ideas there; I will look into them. I've heard good things about the print exchange on this forum.

Baz - I will PM you in the next couple of days; I'd love to hear more of your experiences in Horsham and Natimuk. I spoke to Adam Harding, the Curator of the Horsham Gallery yesterday, he wants to see some of my work. I ran into him as I was photographing the inside of the Murtoa 'Stick Shed' which was open to the public for the first time yesterday.
I'm starting to realise that I've only scratched the surface in regards to photograpy in this region. And much is due to this forum.

cheers
Steve