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View Full Version : Nice russian glasses at bargain prices? - Kaelar 165mm and Lomo O-2 600mm



cyberjunkie
11-Apr-2011, 18:49
Hi everybody.

The lack of in-depth infos about LF soviet lenses is truly amazing. I don't know the reason, probably it has to do with the scarcity of the original documentation, and with the nature of the optical production in the east block: wide, varied, made in a large number of production sites, with a lot of small scale and specialty products, and largely undocumented. Some of the existing documents can be found only in russian language, but that didn't prevent the availability of various books and online resources about, say, russian Leica copies.
It is true that large format lenses are a more specialized stuff, and that the interest for them is not so widespread, but i was very suprised, when i found that a web search about some lenses brought very little infos, or NO reference at all!

Until now, the only "communist" lens i owned was a nice CZJ Tessar 4.5/300mm.
Unfortunately it's a lens that can't be easily fitted in a shutter, so i had no chance to test it on film, because i still have to do the "final touch" to my De Vere 8x10 adapted for Sinar/Copal behind-the-lens shutter.
East Germany glasses are considered to be of very good quality, particularly late multicoated examples, as black f/4.5 Tessars and Apo Gerogons. There are enough infos about these lenses, on this forum and elsewhere, so everybody in need of informations would find some satisfying answers.

Not the same luck for lenses made in Russia or other satellite countries: my latest purchases, a Kaelar 6.8/165mm in Compound and a Lomo O-2 10/600mm, have a vastly inferior online coverage.

The former is a mysterious object, if you do a search you'll just find a couple of links of Ebay sales. It should be a (Czech?) Dagor copy, i'll check the reflections as soon as i get it. I purchased it for the shutter, with the remote hope that the Compound would fit two Protar lens cells i have at home. If it doesn't work as expected, i have the idea of pitting it against a Goerz USA Dagor of the same focal: somehow i am guessing that the copy could even outperform the original. :) I even have a third 6.8/165mm of Dagor design, it's a Laach Dialytar. It would be a very interesting test, but i am afraid that the test would be limited to the center of the coverage; i am not going to waste some 5x7" sheets, shooting the exact same picture with the sole scope of testing the performance... while i have plenty of 120 B&W films to be used with a 6x9 magazine.
If somebody is interested in this comparative of 165mm Dagors, just let me know. I'll post my findings as soon as i get back the Compound of the Dialytar from the repair shop. In the meantime, anybody with some knowledge about the Kaelar is kindly invited to post his findings. The less infos i find about a lens, the more curious i become about it!

The other lens, a Lomo O-2 process lens of 600mm FL, is not so mysterious.
I couldn't find much in the various forums, probably few people own the lens, and those who do felt no urge to post their personal experience. Nevertheless, i found some very interesting informations on a site specialized in soviet cameras and optics.
I was looking for a process lens of long focal, to be used on a 8x10 camera, and what i found made me decide to buy the lens.
The O-2 is of recent design, and unlike other russian process lenses (like some with the letters RF" in their name) is not a Tessar optimized for close range, but a Dialyte, like the Apo Ronar.
What made me choose this lens, was the information that it was made by some special division of Lomo, the same one that made some very special objectives for the military apparatus, like those used on spy planes.
From what i have read, the process lenses of longer focals, like the O-2, were made with more care and with stricter specifications, than the bulk of large format lenses made for tailboard wooden cameras easily found on the bay (13x18 and 18x24 cm versions). The vast majority of those lenses are tessars of f/4.5 speed, and their quality is probably good (better if late coated examples), but if i had to choose, i'd go for their East Germany cousins :)
I don't remember where i found the informations about russian process lenses, but i saved the pictures of the schemes of the last models: some are tessars, some are dialytes. Ask if interested.

Again, any further infos about the Lomo O-2 would be appreciated.
Any other contribute about early LF lenses, non-tessar examples, or any other curiosity, would be very welcomed as well.

have fun


CJ

Dan Fromm
12-Apr-2011, 02:56
Download the 1963 GOI and 1970 and 1971 Yakovlev catalogs from here: http://www.lallement.com/pictures/files.htm

Look around here: http://www.photohistory.ru/Wood.html

Search on this site for RF lenses. Try 'RF-5' Arne Croell has posted a list of them and he and I have discussed most of them. Most of RF series are 6/4 double Gauss types. None is a tessar.

cyberjunkie
12-Apr-2011, 15:20
Most of RF series are 6/4 double Gauss types. None is a tessar.

You're absolutely right.
Too much faith on my memory, so i didn't check.
Here is the lens cut-out of the O-2 and of RF-3, RF-4 and RF-5 lenses.
Probably it comes from the source you mentioned.

Here is a rather unreadable translation from russian language:

" Lens type "O-2", "Russian Federation", "PM-1.
Somewhat later (70gg.) in the USSR in exchange lens "Industar-11M" LOMO published a series of better reproduction apochromat "O-2» (F = 600mm, 750mm; F / D = 10), RF-3 "," RF -4 "," RF-5 "focal lengths, respectively, 300, 360, and 450mm F / D = 10, PM-1 with focal lengths of 900.1200 mm, F / D = 15. Optical schemes of these lenses are shown in Figure 9, 10. We see that the lenses are made by the symmetric scheme. "

I didn't save the lens scheme of the PM-1 because i was not interested in such extra-long focals. My longest bellows don't get to 90cm, fully extended, plus about 10cm more with a protruding lensboard: even with a 900mm lens i would be restricted to close-to-infinity landscape. Too bad, i love extreme focals.

Back to the tessar vs dialyt vs double gauss issue.
My memory failed because many russian process lenses of earlier vintage were tessars. One of them should be the 11M mentioned in the translation.
Please correct me if my memory failed again.

have fun

CJ

cyberjunkie
13-Apr-2011, 16:53
I found the origin of my data.
For those interested, the infos i reported come from the post by EUMENIUS on this page:
http://www.apug.org/forums/forum44/20919-industar-11m-anyones-experience.html

The gif with lens schemes come from this russian page:
http://www.astronomer.ru/telescope.php?action=13&gid=31

A small correction, the second gif is in fact referring to the PM-1, but the layout of the three "RF" should be the same.

RF-*, O-2 and PM-1 lenses are said to be superior to older Apo-Tessar clones like the Industar-11M, that they are specialty items made by the same division where military optics were made, and that these lenses weren't available to the public.


What about the Kaelar?
I am left in almost total darkness. I checked the three pdf's that Dan mentioned.
I re-checked them again, as i did some time ago, and i could find no reference to the Kaelar.
I am not totally sure, though, those documents are about 400 pages each, and not searchable (being made by bitmap scans, and not text) :(
The only things that are absolutely sure are:
1) the lens was purchased from a russian vendor
2) The inscription on the lens reads: Doppel Anastigmat Kaelar 6.8 165mm
3) there is no makers name, just a small logo representing something like a cemented triplet

have fun


CJ

Dan Fromm
14-Apr-2011, 02:09
CJ, the PM-1 cross-section shows a plasmat, not a double Gauss. I have an RF-5, it is a double Gauss. Do you know how to use a table of contents? The Soviet catalogs I directed you to have tables of contents. Look in the 1971 Yakovlev catalog's table of contents for RF-4 and RF-5. They're there, and the cross-sections show 6/4 double Gauss types.

As for your Kaelar, I just did a search. At least one was offered on eBay. I don't think it is a Soviet lens. Is yours engraved in Cyrillic or in Roman? If Roman, not what you say it is.

There's reason to believe that QC was as poor for Soviet military optics as for Soviet optics for the civilian market. Not long ago I posted a link to a comparison between a Soviet mapping lens and the western equivalent. Short answer, the Soviet lens had severe problems.

Sevo
14-Apr-2011, 03:42
The only online reference to a "Doppel Anastigmat Kaelar" are gazillions of links to the single same ebay auction by one Russian seller - perhaps the very lens you bought. But it last being located in Russia does not make it a USSR lens - the Voigtländer lenses and cameras sold by the same person aren't USSR made either. As the USSR had centrally approved and recorded naming schemes and makers, it is not very likely that lenses entirely outside the known schemes exist (the void exists the other way around - we know of many lenses from lists or even schematics of which no physical example is known). Going by its name, it is more likely to be a pre war German lens, presumably relabelled with their house brand by some small camera maker...

Dan Fromm
14-Apr-2011, 03:46
Sevo, perhaps it took Soviet citizenship.

cyberjunkie
14-Apr-2011, 11:55
CJ, the PM-1 cross-section shows a plasmat, not a double Gauss. I have an RF-5, it is a double Gauss.


When i posted the gif it was very late at night, i just checked the O-2 scheme.
The PM-1 is a Plasmat, you're right. At the time i could not find the original source, which is the russian page i reported in a subsequent post.
Going by memory, i thought that the PM-1 and the RF-* had the same plan.
A possible excuse for the confusion is the very, ehm... confusing translation that Google is giving (from russian in cyrillic script, to English in latin script).



As for your Kaelar, I just did a search. At least one was offered on eBay. I don't think it is a Soviet lens. Is yours engraved in Cyrillic or in Roman? If Roman, not what you say it is.


I can read tables. I already had in my computer the documents you mentioned.
Checked twice, and found no reference to the Kaelar.
IF you read my first post, i didn't imply that the lens was russian.
Just coming from one of the "COMECON" states.
Quote from my first post: "(Czech?)"
My memory already failed twice, so i have not much faith in my... sensations, but i think i recall something about this particular lens: it should come from somewhere in the Eastern Block, possibly even from before those countries were incorporated in the sovietic zone of influence.



There's reason to believe that QC was as poor for Soviet military optics as for Soviet optics for the civilian market.
Short answer, the Soviet lens had severe problems.


Let me wholeheartily disagree.
The test of a mapping optic is as relevant as a comparative test of medium format lenses, maybe even less (the reference here is to typographic lenses made in a relatively small number, at least by sovietic standards - BTW, the post from which i get my infos was made by a russian citizen, who's in possession of some original documentation made at the time of production, and who arguably knows a lot more about different production standards, than both me and you).
The comparative test i am referring to was about Pentacon Six lenses: there were late Schneider optics made for the Exacta 66, some CZJ East Germany examples, and some russian ones. Highly enarged scans, unretouched, are available on the Web. A russian MIR wide angle shows one of the best performances of the whole lot, and probably THE best WA (for sure it has the best price vs performance ratio!).
You could say that i'm comparing oranges with apples. True, but so you did.
I repeat, a medium format comparative is at least as relevant as the test you have done. I would be very interested in a first-hand report by somebody who has actually taken pictures with a Lomo O-2 and ANY other process lens made in the West.

I think that everybody would agree that the final word comes from the lens itself.
If somebody is interested, i will post a follow-up as soon as i have the chance to test the lens on film. I am afraid that it will be a test of limited scope, at least for those who would be interested in assessing the performance on 8x10 format. Nevertheless, a test on 120 film (either 6x9 or 6x12) would be better than nothing at all, and would at least give a satisfying answer about the performance at the center of the coverage.
Sorry, but i will use 8x10" films only for "real world" pictures, if and when the right chance will come, and not for taking pictures of newspaper pages or brick walls :)
Cut films aren't exactly cheap, and i have totally depleted my budget with the purchase of old lenses, so better save them for a worthy use.
I was waiting for a process lens in that focal range since quite some time, if i had enough money i would have gone for a nice Apo-Ronar!
Having said all that, i must admit that i don't have low expectations about the Lomo: it's a dialyte project from the seventies, coated (multi? - i'll check soon), made in limited number and probably with better-than-average quality check; if the barrel construction is an indication of overall quality, then these russian lenses are in a totally different league, if you compare them with the well respected line of Staeble/Agfa repro lenses.

have fun

CJ

Dan Fromm
14-Apr-2011, 13:02
CJ, the Soviet catalogs I directed you to give the lenses' central and corner resolution. I don't read Russian, think that the GOI catalog describes the test protocols. I'm fairly sure that the resolutions reported are at full aperture.

The 1970 Yakovlev catalog says that the 600/10 0-2 resolves 28 lp/mm at the center and 12 lp/mm in the center. This is marginal for an f/10 process lens. The 1971 catalog says that the 450/10 RF-5 resolves 35 and15, and that the 600/10 O-2 does 17 and 5.

However I've shot my RF-5 on 2x3 and decided that it is usable. I've also shot a 210/4.5 Soviet Tessar clone, an Industar-51, on 2x3 and found it unusable. Funny thing is, the GOI catalog says the I-51 resolves ~ 34 lp/mm centrally, i.e., should be sharper at f/4.5 centrally than the RF-5 is at f/10.

From which I conclude (a) that Soviet quality control was, as is often reported, poor and (b) that Soviet resolution tests were badly done too.

Mapping lenses are made to the highest possible standards. High resolution, low distortion. That a Soviet mapping lens is poorly centered tells us that even when trying to do well Soviet lens makers weren't very good at making lenses to specification and were willing to ship defective products.