Film hardener compatible with rotary processing?

[l2oBiN]

Could you suggest a product that will make my film more scratch proof/archival and that I could incorporate in the jobo 3010 workflow and is also compatible with scanning?

[Roger Cole]

Don't know about scanning but I always used Kodak Rapid Fixer with full hardner added in my Jobo with no problems at all.

I always use hardner for film. The added wash time isn't much and the risk of soft emulsion much higher than with paper. Whether it's strictly necessary I don't really care. It comes with the fixer, it won't hurt, it might help, so I use it (for film.)

[Vaughn]

I am afraid I had the opposite results from Roger (8x10 in 3005 drum, so that may account for the difference).

Using hardener, I got some strange deposits on the back of the film -- minerals of some kind. No problem after leaving Part B out of the Rapid Fix.

Modern films have an incorperated hardener (but not perhaps some of the Eastern European brands). Give the film a couple of days to completely harden on their own before scanning.

YMMD

Vaughn

[Roger Cole]

I am afraid I had the opposite results from Roger (8x10 in 3005 drum, so that may account for the difference).

Using hardener, I got some strange deposits on the back of the film -- minerals of some kind. No problem after leaving Part B out of the Rapid Fix.

Modern films have an incorperated hardener (but not perhaps some of the Eastern European brands). Give the film a couple of days to completely harden on their own before scanning.

YMMD

Vaughn

Sorry, I should have noted the number in the OP and not just the title. My results are with 4x5 in 2521 tanks and 2509n reels. That could indeed be very different with 8x10 (or other sizes) in expert type drums.

If that's the difference, you can also make a separate hardening bath from the part B and just do that in a tray.

[David de Gruyl]

If your fixer does not have a hardener in it: Sprint Systems Alum Converter (http://sprintsystems.com/alumconverter.php).

I am not sure whether that can only be used during fixing. I vaguely recall (you really want to check this) that the hardener can be used earlier in the process, but that it increases fixing time.

[Lynn Jones]

I stopped using harderner over 50 years ago. No film is scatch proff. I see no reason why chemically you can't use hardener in a drum, just be sure to wash the drum carefully before using developer again.

Lynn

[Roger Cole]

I stopped using harderner over 50 years ago. No film is scatch proff. I see no reason why chemically you can't use hardener in a drum, just be sure to wash the drum carefully before using developer again.

Lynn

You should do that anyway if you use fixer in it.

[Vaughn]

My only theory (perhaps hypothesis is a better word) about why I was getting mineral deposits on the back of my 8x10 negs in a 3005 drum is that perhaps there was some sort of hardening of the anti-halation layer before it was completely removed. I am not familiar enough with the chemical make-up of the layer and how it is applied to the back of the film (what sort of binder, etc may be used to hold it there).

Re-fixing in a tray helped a little, but still would not completely remove the deposits

All I know is that keeping everything else the same, the problem went away when I stopped using hardener in the fix...no more problems these past couple years.

I feel that there is no reason to add any sort of hardener -- the incorperated hardener in the emulsion, and just time itself, is sufficient for me.

I think I wash the drum enough -- that has been constant, also.

[D. Bryant]

Well howdy neighbor.


You should do that anyway if you use fixer in it.


Why? I use Kodak rapid fix and I've not used hardener in decades for any format.

Don Bryant

[Roger Cole]

Well howdy neighbor.



Why? I use Kodak rapid fix and I've not used hardener in decades for any format.

Don Bryant

You don't wash the drum out after using fixer before pouring in developer for the next batch of film?

That's what my reply was referring to, the comment about washing the drum carefully after using hardener. I wasn't saying "you should do that anyway" with regard to using a hardening fix. I'm aware that many people don't. That's generally fine I've just personally never had problems from using hardening fix with film so I've continued to use it.

[Sevo]

It might be wise to apply alum hardeners in a separate tray - it takes some scrubbing to get alum deposits off trays, and they will be near impossible to remove from the light traps of tanks (where a white deposit could create light leaks).

Formaldehyde based hardeners will be tank/drum safe, similar recipes are used as colour stabilizers without any issues.

[Roger Cole]

What's in Kodak Rapid Fix solution B? I used to know. Isn't it an alum hardener?

[Lynn Jones]

To Rocer from Lynn

"of course"

Lynn

[IanMazursky]

What's in Kodak Rapid Fix solution B? I used to know. Isn't it an alum hardener?

Kodak RF Part B is Sulfuric Acid and Aluminum Sulfate (read off of the bottle).
Not sure about the concentrations of either in solution.

[Roger Cole]

Kodak RF Part B is Sulfuric Acid and Aluminum Sulfate (read off of the bottle).
Not sure about the concentrations of either in solution.

I thought I remembered that. Easier to ask than go to the basement and look. :o