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View Full Version : In re: Buyer Beware



Steve Barber
26-Mar-2011, 20:14
I don’t blame eBay; there is always someone who tries to work a system. My pet peeve, however, are the sellers who do not accurately describe an item and, then, when you complain, offer to refund your payment, but not the cost of the return of the item. So, they waste your time and money and you have to prove the item was delivered to the address they give before PayPal will refund the money if there is a dispute. Meanwhile, you are out the original amount you paid, including shipping and, in addition, any import duties and taxes that were paid plus the cost of the return while you wait and hope that a proven dishonest person will make some of it right.

Case in point, I bought a glassed 4x5 negative carrier described as being in “great” condition. When I get it; it is corroded, has two locating pins and one of the small screws holding the glass retaining clip all missing and a corner of one of the glass pieces broken, leaving a ragged edge that would be perfect for leaving scratches on any negative put in it. Now, call me picky, but I do not think this carrier is in “great” condition. The carrier was sent to me at my address in the States, but I was ready to leave for Europe when it arrived and I just threw the package in a bag and did not open it until I got here. Sending it back from here is going to cost considerably more and getting both a receipt and tracking is not possible.

The seller says send it back and he will refund the amount I paid. I really do not have the time to mess with organizing, packing and shipping it back and I am reluctant to put approximately a third of the total amount to be refunded into the cost of the return. I think I would rather just take the time needed to give him a load of bad feedback and write it off without spending the extra time and money in an attempt to get a refund. Besides, this listing of things that are not accurately described seems to be more and more prevalent and, as I said, it is a pet peeve of mine. I can see where someone might overlook something when it is not obvious, but not things that have obvious defects that reduce them to the level of junk. Why are sellers sending stuff that does not even come close to what they describe?

So, what to do? Am I being unreasonable in doing what I am inclined to, just giving a load of bad feedback and getting on with my life?

Marko
27-Mar-2011, 09:58
One thing you can do, going forward, is to specifically ask about return policy and shipping costs before buying.

If they say it's covered, you'll have it in writing and can file a complaint with PayPal. If they say it's not, you don't buy.

I had a couple of incidents like that, one was too small to bother, I just wrote it off and gave negative feedback. In the other case, the seller became a bit too lippy with his response, so I treated it as a matter of principle and filed a complaint with PayPal. It took about a month before I got my money back. All of it. And they still got their feedback... ;)

John Koehrer
27-Mar-2011, 11:04
Return shipping isn't usually paid by a seller. Even under warranty by a manufacturer. Folks who do pick it up are far and few between.
If you get no satisfaction from PP I'd cut my losses by paying to return it so it's not a total loss.

Marko
27-Mar-2011, 11:44
If they misrepresent the item, they should.

There is a big difference between a seller not liking what they bought or changing their mind on one hand and a lens described as mint that comes in with a ton of scratches, for example, on the other hand.

In my case, it was an SLR with a huge dent on the prism and another one on the bottom plate which were retouched out of the auction photos! Why would I have to pay to rectify their intentional deception? PayPal agreed with me, after presenting my photos compared to the auction photos.

Douglas Henderson
27-Mar-2011, 20:17
Sometimes an Ebay purchase delivers an item to me that doesn't match the physical description to a standard I hold to myself. I've not experienced a grievous discrepancy. If something isn't "as described" or seems it should have been better examined, I usually write a note to the seller and say so. If it is a matter of unexpected repairs or replacement of a part, I may openly suggest a partial refund. Often, the buyer will offer an appropriate refund on their own.

Sometimes, its a combination of my not looking at the provided photos carefully enough or overlooking inadequate photos (always a suspicious component of an Ebay auction) and the seller's lack of thorough examination (intentional or not). Sometimes I get a not-always-convincing response that they had no idea of the problem or that the bellows "looked" good.

A note to the seller that you expected a better description carries with it some hint of grounds for honest feedback comments if they don't make some gesture to remedy your expectations. If you have a real, reasonable dispute, then the threat of negative feedback to regular sellers generally brings results, if you're patient enough to hold off giving feedback right out of the gate. When I sell something on Ebay, I mention in the description caption that the item may be returned if not as described (and post lots of good pictures). But I make it clear they have to pay return shipping.

neil poulsen
27-Mar-2011, 21:05
If it's that bad, I'm wondering if EBay could help, although that's probably stretching it.

In a dispute for an incorrectly described lens, EBay sent me a pre-addressed shipping label to return the lens. (I had requested that I be refunded shipping fees, in addition to the winning bid.) In this case, not only did the seller refuse a refund, he refused to comply with an EBay demand to send a refund. Very uncooperative.

I had the last laugh, though. After having moved from the west coast to the east coast, the seller had forgotten to update his EBay address. I missed this on the pre-addressed shipping label, and the lens was sent to the seller's old address 2500 miles away. :D

Darin Boville
27-Mar-2011, 22:56
I've had good luck dealing with e-bay problems by working with the seller. The trick I use is simply to stay calm, professional, and sober-sounding. Once I was sent a 90 Angulon that was billed as working as sold "as-is." It was non-working when it arrived. As you can guess, the seller said "it was sold as-is" as tried to wash their hands of it. I calmly but firmly pointed out that the "as-is" only applied if the description was accurate. Gently bring up the word "fraud" but certainly don't accuse them of it. Push, but gently. And if you get to within a few dollars of where you want to be don't sweat the rest--this is business, not cosmic morality. Pay half of the return shipping, whatever.

The thing I always remind myself is that many people are simply not socialized with the norms of business practice. Just think of them as inexperienced rather than malicious and you may find that things become much clearer, and easier.

--Darin

tautatis
28-Mar-2011, 05:14
I just returned a view camera that was totally misrepresented by the seller as, an 8X10 and a Kodak D2. The camera was not a Kodak D2 neither was it an 8X10. I shipped it the next day. Initially, I had great e-mail exchange with the seller, however, all of a sudden, the communication stopped. I am tracking the package right now, will see what happens. As someone mentioned above, it's a different thing, when you just don't like the product, but when the product is misrepresented, I think the buyer has a right to return the product and receive his full refund.

A.

Renato Tonelli
28-Mar-2011, 06:16
My favorite description is this: "don't know anything about this item but it seems to be working."

aluncrockford
28-Mar-2011, 14:15
I just received a panel described as original Deardorff which was nothing of the sort, it was more like a kodak master, I have sent it back and am now awaiting repayment ,the seller will not accept the fact it is not a Deardorff which is unfortunate . The problem with ebay is there is an assumption of trust and it is all to easy to have this trust abused

Sirius Glass
28-Mar-2011, 17:23
I don’t blame eBay; there is always someone who tries to work a system. My pet peeve, however, are the sellers who do not accurately describe an item and, then, when you complain, offer to refund your payment, but not the cost of the return of the item. So, they waste your time and money and you have to prove the item was delivered to the address they give before PayPal will refund the money if there is a dispute. Meanwhile, you are out the original amount you paid, including shipping and, in addition, any import duties and taxes that were paid plus the cost of the return while you wait and hope that a proven dishonest person will make some of it right.

Case in point, I bought a glassed 4x5 negative carrier described as being in “great” condition. When I get it; it is corroded, has two locating pins and one of the small screws holding the glass retaining clip all missing and a corner of one of the glass pieces broken, leaving a ragged edge that would be perfect for leaving scratches on any negative put in it. Now, call me picky, but I do not think this carrier is in “great” condition. The carrier was sent to me at my address in the States, but I was ready to leave for Europe when it arrived and I just threw the package in a bag and did not open it until I got here. Sending it back from here is going to cost considerably more and getting both a receipt and tracking is not possible.

The seller says send it back and he will refund the amount I paid. I really do not have the time to mess with organizing, packing and shipping it back and I am reluctant to put approximately a third of the total amount to be refunded into the cost of the return. I think I would rather just take the time needed to give him a load of bad feedback and write it off without spending the extra time and money in an attempt to get a refund. Besides, this listing of things that are not accurately described seems to be more and more prevalent and, as I said, it is a pet peeve of mine. I can see where someone might overlook something when it is not obvious, but not things that have obvious defects that reduce them to the level of junk. Why are sellers sending stuff that does not even come close to what they describe?

So, what to do? Am I being unreasonable in doing what I am inclined to, just giving a load of bad feedback and getting on with my life?



I just received a panel described as original Deardorff which was nothing of the sort, it was more like a kodak master, I have sent it back and am now awaiting repayment ,the seller will not accept the fact it is not a Deardorff which is unfortunate . The problem with ebay is there is an assumption of trust and it is all to easy to have this trust abused

Two textbook cases why I avoid using eBay and buy from KEH.com or face to face in a camera store.

Steve

Jeff Keller
28-Mar-2011, 18:12
Actually you might not have to be there. I called the police department in a city on the opposite side of the US. The police visited the "gentleman" who had my money, then called me from his office, saying he was refunding my money and asked if I wanted them to arrest him.
I had sent documentation that showed he had my money and copies of emails where he said he couldn't get the item and would refund my money...but he never refunded my money and quit answering his phone until the police visited him.

Ivan J. Eberle
29-Mar-2011, 16:05
Honks me off too, when I've got a time waster who's not represented an item properly (or possibly fraudulently) and you've got to size up the situation before gambling on a return. But eBay is pretty decent about it in the rules nowadays from the buyer's point of view. If you've gotten a known/grossly/fraudulently misrepresented item off an eBay auction, by all means get eBay involved with it ASAP. This ensures that you'll likely get a refund and at least one leg of the shipping covered.

I've purchased scores of items via eBay and only gotten burned a very few times, one or two being standouts. One was a fraudster misrepresenting a seriously etched LF lens. I flamed him badly when he relisted the item, after I'd gotten eBay involved and returned it with tracking and gotten a refund. (But not return shipping.)

Now if (like me) you've also purchased something once or twice from overseas that's flakey or just not the trouble of returning for a refund if the cost is substantial in eating the return shipping-- well, that's certainly factors into what I'm willing to bid on, from afar.