4x5 Back Interchangeability?

[Trooper]

I currently use a 6x7cm field camera, but I am wanting to get into 4x5 photography and have a few questions about buying a used camera.

Is there a standard 4x5 film back that works on most brands of cameras?

I'm specifically looking at Horseman, Sinar, and Arca-Swiss. Do each of these have a different type of film back, specific to each manufacturer? I'm leaning towards Horseman simply because I have a 980, but I'm open to other suggestions.

Will the 105mm lens on my Horseman 980 work on a 4x5?

[Gem Singer]

If you are asking about 4x5 cut film holders, yes, they will work on all three camera brands that you mentioned. 4x5 backs are standardized.

Your Horseman 105mm lens might cover 4x5 when closed down to f22 or smaller. Try it out.

You will need a lens with a larger image circle if you want to take advantage of the movements offered by a 4x5 camera.

[Ari]

Most double sided film backs from Fidelity, Riteway, et al. work on any camera; they have been standardized for a long time.
Whether a certain camera accepts other backs (Polaroid or Fuji instant, Grafmatic) will depend on whether or not that camera uses a Graflok (or International) back.
This permits the regular back to be removed, and lock another back in its place by various methods such as locking pins.
Some research, here and elsewhere on the internet, into your camera choice will give you those answers.
I suspect your 105mm will not fully cover 4x5, but you might nonetheless enjoy the results' it's definitely worth a try.
Best of luck.

[rdenney]

I currently use a 6x7cm field camera, but I am wanting to get into 4x5 photography and have a few questions about buying a used camera.

Is there a standard 4x5 film back that works on most brands of cameras?

All three of those cameras have an International back which is the same as the Graflok back used by Graflex started over half a century ago, so there are mountains of goodies that will work equally well on all three. This includes rollfilm holders, Polaroid and Fuji instant film holders, and any other accessory that uses a Graflok/International back.

As Gem said, they will also all take standard 4x5 film holders, which have been standardized for even longer. The most common examples have labels that say Fidelity, Lisco, and Riteway, and all these are quite similar. Toyo also makes holders that are highly respected. All work for nearly all practical applications, and are the place for someone new to 4x5 to begin. The plastic backs are likely to be newer and if they are flat they work fine. Wooden ones in good condition also work, but they will be older and more likely to have light leaks or loose joints.

Rick "who uses and has used Fidelity film holders, a Sinar roll film holder, a Wista roll film holder, a Shen-Hao roll film holder, a Fuji Quickload holder, a Fuji PA-45 instant film holder, and a Polaroid 545i instant film holder in Sinar and Cambo cameras" Denney

[John Koehrer]

If you mean film holders, all the above are correct.
If you mena the actual back of the camera, No! They are not standardized and mostly not interchangeable between brands of camera.

[aduncanson]

Good catch John.

As for the Horseman 105mm, Horseman lenses named "Super Horseman" such as the "Super HORSEMAN 105mm F 4,5" cover 4x5 when stopped down. The "Professional HORSEMAN 105mm F 3,5" does not. See (http://martyfoto.host.sk/horseman/horsemanVHR11.html)

[Trooper]

If you mean film holders, all the above are correct.
If you mena the actual back of the camera, No! They are not standardized and mostly not interchangeable between brands of camera.

I suppose I mean both.

If I were to buy something like in the link below, then all I would need is the film holders, a lens and appropriate size lens board?

Well used Sinar F (http://www.keh.com/camera/Large-Format-Camera-Bodies/1/sku-LF029990238970?r=FE)

[Trooper]

Good catch John.

As for the Horseman 105mm, Horseman lenses named "Super Horseman" such as the "Super HORSEMAN 105mm F 4,5" cover 4x5 when stopped down. The "Professional HORSEMAN 105mm F 3,5" does not. See (http://martyfoto.host.sk/horseman/horsemanVHR11.html)

Thanks for clarifying that. I have a "Professional" lens. It will still focus, but I'll have a circular image on a 4x5 sheet?

[picker77]

I suppose I mean both.

If I were to buy something like in the link below, then all I would need is the film holders, a lens and appropriate size lens board?

Well used Sinar F (http://www.keh.com/camera/Large-Format-Camera-Bodies/1/sku-LF029990238970?r=FE)

Yes. Plus a stout tripod, heavy duty tripod head (preferably a 3-way pan head), dark cloth, shutter release cable, and something to carry it all in. That's a 9+ lb camera as pictured, but the other stuff will add something like another 10-14 lb to the kit. So figure on mule-hauling around about 20-22 lb in all, plus the weight of whatever you carry it all in. That's why wheeled devices (like jogging-type baby strollers) and good backpacks are so popular with LF folks.

LF is the most fun you can have in photography without getting arrested. But it's a little like buying a boat. Yes, you do need to start with a hull and a motor. But after that comes the real money, lol.

[Trooper]

Yes. Plus a stout tripod, heavy duty tripod head (preferably a 3-way pan head), dark cloth, shutter release cable, and something to carry it all in. That's a 9+ lb camera as pictured, but the other stuff will add something like another 10-14 lb to the kit. So figure on mule-hauling around about 20-22 lb in all, plus the weight of whatever you carry it all in. That's why wheeled devices (like jogging-type baby strollers) and good backpacks are so popular with LF folks.

LF is the most fun you can have in photography without getting arrested. But it's a little like buying a boat. Yes, you do need to start with a hull and a motor. But after that comes the real money, lol.

Sounds like I've got all the other equipment. I'm not planning on hauling a 4x5 around, yet at least. This is likely going to be semi-permanently set up in the basement for tabletop and occasional portrait experiments.

[picker77]

Sounds like I've got all the other equipment. I'm not planning on hauling a 4x5 around, yet at least. This is likely going to be semi-permanently set up in the basement for tabletop and occasional portrait experiments.

Never fear, Trooper. Once you look at some of those beautiful & humongous negatives, the bug will bite and like most of us out the door you'll go, lugging all your 'stuff'. It's a great addiction, though. :D

[ethics_gradient]

This thread fits my question, so might as well save myself starting a thread:

Where should I be looking for a small-footprint Graflok back? I want to swap out the back on my 4x5 Tele-Graflex for one that can take modern holders (which I already have plenty of, not to mention Polaroids), and the old Speed Graphic back I bought is going to be too big to fit on the rotating back with ease. My original intention was to cut it down, but doing so would make it tricky to screw in to the revolving back. On the plus side, it was pretty inexpensive, so wouldn't be a huge loss if I bungled it.

I have a Gowland 4x5 Pocket View with a removable back which fits into the Graflex almost perfectly, but I am not about to start drilling extra holes in it to accommodate it on the Graflex. Does anyone know what Mr. Gowland was sourcing his backs from, or where I could find something similar?

[rdenney]

This thread fits my question, so might as well save myself starting a thread:

Actually, this thread does not seem to me to fit your question at all, and you should indeed start a new thread. The question here was how to prop film up in a Sinar rear standard (though it took a bit of back and forth to ascertain that fully), not how to fit completely different back on your Tele-Graflex, which appears to be a unique and unusual camera unlike their press cameras. The answer to that will require expertise more specific than this thread might attract.

Rick "who does not know the answer" Denney

[tim o'brien]

Never fear, Trooper. Once you look at some of those beautiful & humongous negatives, the bug will bite and like most of us out the door you'll go, lugging all your 'stuff'. It's a great addiction, though. :D

And don't EVER look at an 8x10 negative.

It's all over then. Ask me how I know.

tim in san jose

[Dan Fromm]

Rick Denney wrote:


All three of those cameras have an International back which is the same as the Graflok back used by Graflex started over half a century ago,

Rick, there's more than one interpretation of International back. I mention this because my little 2x3 Cambo SC has what Cambo calls an International back. The little gem accepts roll holders what attach to a 2x3 Graflok back but not sheet film holders. A real Graflok as made by Graflex accepts sheet film holders, not all International backs do.

Close, but definitely no cigar.

[rdenney]

Rick, there's more than one interpretation of International back. I mention this because my little 2x3 Cambo SC has what Cambo calls an International back. The little gem accepts roll holders what attach to a 2x3 Graflok back but not sheet film holders. A real Graflok as made by Graflex accepts sheet film holders, not all International backs do.

I was talking about 4x5 backs per the thread subject, and I don't know of any exceptions, but I suppose it's possible. My Cambo, Sinar, and Speed Graphic all accept the same accessories intended for an international/Graflok back.

Rick "curious if there are any 4x5 exceptions" Denney

[Dan Fromm]

Rick, not that I doubt you very much, but I just took a look at my Cambo accessories catalog, also at the SC catalog on cameraeccentric.com. The C-168 international back in the accessories catalog looks uncannily like my little one. My little one's ground glass comes off to all a roll holder to be mounted and there's no provision for sliding a film holder in front of the ground glass, as there is on Graflex' own ...

The catalog illustrations are poor and I could very well be misinterpreting them.

[rdenney]

Rick, not that I doubt you very much, but I just took a look at my Cambo accessories catalog, also at the SC catalog on cameraeccentric.com. The C-168 international back in the accessories catalog looks uncannily like my little one. My little one's ground glass comes off to all a roll holder to be mounted and there's no provision for sliding a film holder in front of the ground glass, as there is on Graflex' own ...

The catalog illustrations are poor and I could very well be misinterpreting them.

I've certainly used my Cambo with accessories that mount using the Graflok-style tabs, including various roll-film holders as diverse as an MPP 6x9 and a Wista 6x9 holder for 4x5 cameras. And I've certainly used it with regular 4x5 film holders and with the slide-in Polaroid sheet-film holder. The ground glass has two push-in clips that allow it to be slid to one side and removed, just as with the Speed Graphic and the Sinar, for mounting Graflok accessories.

I suspect the International back is its own industry standard designed to be compatible with the Graflok back, which was not a standard but a proprietary product. Graflok is a trademark so they couldn't label it that. Perhaps the 2x3 design just didn't consider those who might use 2x3 cut film, which was probably a bit of an odd beast when the SC series came out. That was long after the heydey of the Century. Even with these de facto standards, I'm sure there are bits of stuff here and there that don't fit. But I'm really surprised a 2x3 Cambo doesn't accommodate 2x3 cut-film holders.

Rick "noting that the MPP holder had to be installed on the Cambo in vertical orientation because of a conflict with the opposite-hand dark slide and the axial tilt control" Denney

[Dan Fromm]

Rick, there's a bail back for the 2x3 SC. It accepts cut film holders but not roll film holders expect, of course, the unloved Adapt-a-Roll 620 and the 120 film equivalent from Busch.