Sinar Norma Problem

[William Whitaker]

I was working with the 8x10 Norma today when the rear focus began to bind and became difficult to turn. Prior to this it has been easy to operate. So I pulled off the rear standard and disassembled the dovetail focusing slide. I expected to find sheared off metal filings, but fortunately did not. What I did find was that the binding was not between the pinion and the rack, but in the pinion axle itself. That is, even now that the pinion is not engaged to the rack, the focusing knob is still difficult to turn. Yes, the lock is off.

Either something has gotten into the mechanism to cause binding or somehow the mechanism has tightened up. There is a collar located between the focusing lock and the bottom slide assembly which holds the pinion drive together and probably provides for some adjustment. But it apparently requires a dedicated spanner wrench which I don't have. And very likely further disassembly is beyond my expertise.

Does anybody have any suggestions? Are there any recommendations for an experienced repair shop for Normas?

[Richard Wasserman]

http://www.precisioncameraworks.com/Pages/about.html

Bob Watkins has worked on my Norma and is very experienced—factory trained, I believe.

[Frank Petronio]

Ditto, he worked for Sinar before Arca.

[Stephane]

Last xmas by the sea, the whole norma started to be stuck, and when turning the mechanism it was getting so stiff I got scared to break it when focusing.

When to a mechanic shop, got some WD40 equivalent. WD40 takes away rust, lubricate and prevent water to come back. Just spray almost nothing and it will be as good as new!

[Frank Petronio]

hahaha

[rdenney]

Last xmas by the sea, the whole norma started to be stuck, and when turning the mechanism it was getting so stiff I got scared to break it when focusing.

When to a mechanic shop, got some WD40 equivalent. WD40 takes away rust, lubricate and prevent water to come back. Just spray almost nothing and it will be as good as new!

WD40 is not a lubricant. It is a solvent. It works by dissolving existing grease, but when it evaporates, the grease will harden again (if any of it is left). It will get you through the day, and perhaps last for a few months, but it will not restore the camera for another 40 years of problem-free use.

Remember, grease is just oil emulsified with soap. When the oil evaporates out, the soap is left, which will dry out and bind parts. WD40 will dissolve the soap to some extent, but it will not turn it back into grease.

You might as well use naptha (lighter fluid) and dissolve away the grease on purpose. But then you have to replace the grease, and often that requires disassembly. An alternative is to dissolve the soap with a true lubricant that includes something like an alcohol to dissolve the soap. An example of that is Kroil. But it is too light to replace applications requiring heavier grease.

Rick "on an eternal quest to prevent the use of DubbemDeeForty as a lubricant" Denney

[R Miller]

Certainly agree that the use of a "proper" lubricant in any mechanical device requiring a lubricant is advisable, and that WD-40 is not a suitable replacement for any application requiring a grease. However, based on experience and that, if one believes Wikipedia, it contains about 15% mineral oil, I disagree with the blanket statement that "WD-40 is not a lubricant" - although I do understand, and can appreciate, the "quest" :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40

[Stephane]

WD40 will sort you out, this is not soapy water. I tried, and it works.

If you are all too scared to spray a bit, go pay someone else who will do it in your back.

[rdenney]

WD40 will sort you out, this is not soapy water. I tried, and it works.

If you are all too scared to spray a bit, go pay someone else who will do it in your back.

Oh, it will work...for a while.

But what oil that is in it is so light that it will not provide much film strength, and the parts will wear at a high rate.

I once collected old clocks, and have seen the effects of WD40, which has a highly distinctive smell. That smell routinely doubles the quoted price for clock repairs, and there is a reason for that. That in addition to what I know about lubricants as a result of my engineering experience.

Argue if you want.

Rick "thinking a Norma deserves a proper long-term repair" Denney

[rdenney]

Certainly agree that the use of a "proper" lubricant in any mechanical device requiring a lubricant is advisable, and that WD-40 is not a suitable replacement for any application requiring a grease. However, based on experience and that, if one believes Wikipedia, it contains about 15% mineral oil, I disagree with the blanket statement that "WD-40 is not a lubricant" - although I do understand, and can appreciate, the "quest" :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WD-40

I can't quite resolve the U.S. MSDS sheet claiming that much of it is hexane solvent, and the German safety sheet claiming that much of it is naptha. These are solvents, and the machine oil is soluble in these solvents. The film it leaves behind is not intended as a high-film-strength lubricant, but rather a corrosion-resistant coating.

Kroil, on the other hand, has a much smaller percentage of alcohol as a solvent, and a heavier machine mineral oil intended for film-strength applications.

Even lighter-fluid has oil mixed with the naptha, and machines doused in it will run beautifully until it evaporates. Nobody would call it a lubricant, however.

Rick "eschewing quick fixes" Denney

[philipmorg]

This is an interesting discussion, and coincides strangely with a dream I had early this morning, in which I used the correct grease on a Norma I have been working on, but the grease performed strangely by having far too much viscosity the first couple of times I moved the shift bar and then far too little viscosity after it had "warmed up." It was an odd dream on a number of levels, and a strange co-incidence with this thread.

I'm the author of the Sinar Norma text and video CLA Guides, and I recommend using molybdenum disulfide grease as the primary lubricant for the moving parts on a Norma. Most of the lubricated surfaces in this camera require only a tiny amount of this grease, and in practice excessive lubricant only serves to collect dust or grit in places you don't want it accumulating. That said, I'd be very wary of using anything other than moly grease as a long-term solution for a Norma, or any other camera with finely machined mating surfaces (especially aluminum ones).

According to the best sources I have, the tub of grease that was included with new Sinar Normas was a molybdenum disulfide formulation.

I'm not kidding about the dream, BTW. Maybe it is possible to love Normas too much.

[William Whitaker]

Turns out the problem was some very old hardened grease and some very tight Swiss tolerances. Thanks to Philip's excellent help I was able to disassemble, clean and lube the rear fine-focus mechanism. And now it runs like the fine Swiss mechanism it is.

Thank you for everybody's suggestions. I recommend Philip's CLA video if you have a Norma. It's nice to be at least a little self-reliant.

[E. von Hoegh]

Oh, it will work...for a while.

But what oil that is in it is so light that it will not provide much film strength, and the parts will wear at a high rate.

I once collected old clocks, and have seen the effects of WD40, which has a highly distinctive smell. That smell routinely doubles the quoted price for clock repairs, and there is a reason for that. That in addition to what I know about lubricants as a result of my engineering experience.

Argue if you want.

Rick "thinking a Norma deserves a proper long-term repair" Denney


WD-40 is great stuff. The "WD" means "Water Displacing", and it does that very well. It even "lubricates", for a bit, until the carrier dries up. Then it turns to an almost waxy substance which will not lubricate, but will attract and trap dust from two miles downwind, forming an abrasive paste that will sooner or later destoy wearing surfaces ( such as the wheels and pinions of a nice old clock) contaminated with it.
It's great stuff to dry out an ignition system, loosen old crud, quiet the squeaky hinges on the outhouse door, and prevent rust (short term) on all sorts of carbon steel goodies. I love it, and wouldn't be without it.

But to use it as a lubricant for anything more precise than a well rusted hinge is heresy. It isn't much of a penetrant, either, though it will work if you are patient. Furnace oil works better, Kroil and PB Blaster are the two best (penetrants) I've ever used.

[Stephane]

I guess you guys will never take you norma to the ocean for two weeks... Or if you do, you would CLA it every evening. I'd rather go to the beach, spray WD40 if the gearing ceases and keep on shooting. It is only a camera, the photos are more precious than the norma.

My sinar norma 5x7 is my field camera (i.e. travelling camera), so if there is a problem in the field, I'll fix it in the field. I dont want to come home winging "camera ceased = zero picture".

And 3 months from that heretic (heroic?) spraying session, the prophecy of the dust-bearing waxy residue destroying the norma has not been fulfilled yet. It is still as smooth as the first spray-day! If you want, I can tell you when that norma will die, but I think it will still outlive me.

[philipmorg]

Stephane, what do you think was causing the stiffness in the first place? Was it exposure to salt water, sand, or something else?

[Stephane]

"l'air marin" - wind, humidity and salt.
Within 3 day on the beach it ceased. Morocco, away from everything. Had to make it work, traveled all the way to take pictures...

[philipmorg]

Ah... I'm guessing here, but I imagine that means the existing grease in the camera probably dried up, especially if it's been a while since the camera was lubed, or if it was lubed with the wrong lubricant.

Anyway, glad you were able to get some pictures anyway!

[Daniel Unkefer]

Since I have been collecting Sinar Norma stuff for thirty years, I have several of the original instruction books, which contain the packet of original Norma grease. It came taped to the inside of the instruction book. It is a blackish-brown moly type grease, packed in a metal tin about the size of a fifty-cent piece. The tin has the Norma logo on the top.

[William Whitaker]

Did you ever have any instruction books with small cans of WD-40?

[Daniel Unkefer]

Did you ever have any instruction books with small cans of WD-40?

Nope. LOL :p

Here's the original stuff that came with the Norma. As you can see, it's quite old, and probably not worth using at this point.

[rdenney]

Nope. LOL :p

Here's the original stuff that came with the Norma. As you can see, it's quite old, and probably not worth using at this point.

Dan, if it's still gooey and unseparated, it will work fine. I'm still mining a kilo tub of Campagnolo grease I bought in the late 70's. What makes grease go bad is desaponofication, where ghe oil separates from the emulsifier and then evaporates.

Rick "noting that excess moly grease should be carefully removed..it stains" Denney

[Ivan J. Eberle]

The stuff in the tin looks much like the now commonplace automotive disk-brake type wheel bearing grease, which is reliable to 100K miles or more these days (despite the recommended change interval being a third of that). A whole pint of the stuff costs $6 hereabouts, but a little bit would go a long way in a view camera!

My late-production Norma (pictured in the For Sale section, as it occurs) has what appear to be Delrin focusing racks, and Delrin sliders in the rail clamp. Very smooth operating, smoothest LF camera I've got by a wide margin. No messy external lube leaks at all.