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View Full Version : Favourite lenses for 8x10" vs. 4x10"



georgl
11-Mar-2011, 07:20
I have finally decided to acquire a large format setup, I still cannot decide whether I stick with 8x10" or choose 4x10" - maybe the lens-question would make it easier?

I've bought a cheap Sironar-N 300 to play around with 8x10" - I like the focal length but I wonder how a two-lens setup might work!?

240 + 480 -> slightly shorter and longer?
210 + 300 -> no need for longer lenses anyway?

The 240s don't have much room for shifting...
The 1kg 300mm Sironar is fine regarding size + weight, but the 210XL or 480mm-lenses don't sound as nice... So rather an older and slower Tele-design?

Anything entirely different?

The lenses should be as sharp and contrasty as possible, it would be nice if I could use f16 at times to avoid diffraction without loosing too much off-axis performance.

4x10" seems much easier regarding lens-choice. The Sironar-S 210 and the Schneider 350 Compact (I have never seen similar MTF to the 210 with this IC) - any experience with them?

I'm tempted by the panoramic format - but I have a hard time understanding focal length with it - how has it affected your focal length-choice? Same horizontal angle but narrower vertical angle? Vice versa? Something in-between?

Maybe I have overlooked something!?

Thank you!

Gem Singer
11-Mar-2011, 07:30
Click LF Home Page on the blue tool bar above.

Scroll down to Lenses.

Click on Comparison Charts, and the answers to some of your questions will be found.

Kimberly Anderson
11-Mar-2011, 07:55
Look back at your 8x10 work. Make a 4x10 mask and place them over your 8x10 negatives. You will learn a lot about what works, what doesn't work and what you might want to try in the future.

I am shooting 8x10 and 4x10 right now. I shoot the 120 SA a LOT with the 4x10 but hardly EVER shoot it with the 8x10. Those kinds of patterns will start to become evident as you look at and re-crop your 8x10 negatives.

Right now my 4x10 lenses are: 90, 120, 150, 210, 360, 19 inch and 21 1/2 inch. Admittedly the longer two lenses won't be used a lot with 4x10, they were purchased with 8x10 more in mind.

I don't think you will be able to find a 'formula' to help you determine which lenses you want, but you might be able to come close. Think of it as either a cropped 8x10, or a diptych of 4x5's.

PM me if you have any other questions. 4x10 has been my format of choice for about 3 years now.

SocalAstro
11-Mar-2011, 08:46
Hi Michael,

which 4x10 camera do you have that allows you to use a 90mm lens? My Shen-Hao is limited to a 115mm or therabouts - I use a Niklkor 120SW quite a bit.

Cheers,
Leon





Right now my 4x10 lenses are: 90, 120, 150, 210, 360, 19 inch and 21 1/2 inch. Admittedly the longer two lenses won't be used a lot with 4x10, they were purchased with 8x10 more in mind.
.

georgl
11-Mar-2011, 09:04
Thank you, but I'm well aware of the technical data. I'm asking about personal experiences, reading "between the lines" - things that might not be obvious from an early perspective.

John Kasaian
11-Mar-2011, 09:14
I have finally decided to acquire a large format setup, I still cannot decide whether I stick with 8x10" or choose 4x10" - maybe the lens-question would make it easier?

I've bought a cheap Sironar-N 300 to play around with 8x10" - I like the focal length but I wonder how a two-lens setup might work!?

240 + 480 -> slightly shorter and longer?
210 + 300 -> no need for longer lenses anyway?

The 240s don't have much room for shifting...
The 1kg 300mm Sironar is fine regarding size + weight, but the 210XL or 480mm-lenses don't sound as nice... So rather an older and slower Tele-design?

Anything entirely different?

The lenses should be as sharp and contrasty as possible, it would be nice if I could use f16 at times to avoid diffraction without loosing too much off-axis performance.

4x10" seems much easier regarding lens-choice. The Sironar-S 210 and the Schneider 350 Compact (I have never seen similar MTF to the 210 with this IC) - any experience with them?

I'm tempted by the panoramic format - but I have a hard time understanding focal length with it - how has it affected your focal length-choice? Same horizontal angle but narrower vertical angle? Vice versa? Something in-between?

Maybe I have overlooked something!?

Thank you!

If you buy an 8x10 with sliders you can shoot both 8x10 and 4x10 on the same back with the same film holders:D
9-1/2"or 10"(240-250mm) for a slightly wide, and a 14"(355-360mm) or even a 16-1/2" or 19" for a long make a nice 2-lens kit for an 8x10.

Gem Singer
11-Mar-2011, 09:24
From personal experience:

Favorite lenses for 4x10 as well as 8x10--- Nikon/Nikkor f8 120SW, f9 300M, and f9 450M.

Keith Pitman
11-Mar-2011, 09:46
Most used lenses on 4x10 are 165 and 240. Have carried 110, but didn't use it frequently. Also, use 300 and 450.

Kimberly Anderson
11-Mar-2011, 10:03
I have a Canham 8x10 and have a 4x10 reducing back for it. I also have the bag bellows which let's me use the 90.

It is an awesome camera!

Justin Cormack
11-Mar-2011, 10:50
I don't think you will be able to find a 'formula' to help you determine which lenses you want, but you might be able to come close. Think of it as either a cropped 8x10, or a diptych of 4x5's.


I am thinking about 4x10 and it is a bit confusing which of those two models makes more sense, as one suggests longer lenses than the other as more common. My widest lens that covers in 150, but I dont have a camera yet...

Vaughn
11-Mar-2011, 10:54
I shoot both formats as well, but just use a modified dark slide to get two 4x10 negs on a single sheet of 8x10 film. I do not use a wide angle much, but will occasionally use a 165mm and a 210mm with 4x10, otherwise I use the 300mm. For distant panoramic views I have used the 19" with 4x10 (and even a 24").

A two-lens kit for me (using it on both formats) would be the 210 and the 300. The first addition would be the 19", then the 165mm.

Vaughn

georgl
11-Mar-2011, 12:18
That's a startpoint, thanks!

For 4x10" it would be:
Rodenstock Sironar-S 210 -> small, high-quality, sufficient IC
Schneider 350 Compact -> small, high-quality?

For 8x10" I'm uncertain:
Sironar-N 300 -> my only lens so far, like the angle of view
but what lens to complement?
210mm ? huge beasts, already to wide?
And no longer focal length at all?

So I would prefer Sironar-S 240 + Apo-Symmar 480mm -> 2x factor is ideal from my experience, but the 480 is already a 1.5kg monster... Is a small tele (30 years old designs?) really sufficient? Does it matter carrying around a 15kg rucksack? When is a little bit more simply too much?

I know: try it out... A learning curve will be there, but what about doing it right from the start - just this time.... ;-)

Yes, it sounds so obvious, an 8x10" camera can also be used as 4x10"... but a few things come along, it starts with the favourite rucksack I would like to buy for it - 4x10" fits perfectly with holders, 8x10" is 1.5cm too wide on one side and I'm not sure where to put the holders... Then the larger lenses with less quality... So again 4x10" comes to mind...
But on the other side, is that reason enough to "skip" half the format and choose the less versatile panoramic aspect ratio?

Ken Lee
11-Mar-2011, 12:32
"I know: try it out... A learning curve will be there, but what about doing it right from the start - just this time.... ;-)"

When you figure out what is "right", please let us all know :)

If this were engineering, most of us wouldn't be here.

John Jarosz
11-Mar-2011, 12:37
Make yourself a viewing card with the 4x10 aspect ratio. Walk around and view thru it with the card at different distances from your eye. Not perfect, but you'll get an idea pretty quick.

There is no right way to do it correctly from the start. It's all trial and error.

Daniel_Buck
11-Mar-2011, 12:38
I like 240 and 450 for 8x10 and masked 4x10. I used light weight lenses, 240 g-claron and 450 fujinon-c

Really just depends on what you like though.

8x20_Pano_Shooter
11-Mar-2011, 22:40
I have finally decided to acquire a large format setup, I still cannot decide whether I stick with 8x10" or choose 4x10" - maybe the lens-question would make it easier?

I've bought a cheap Sironar-N 300 to play around with 8x10" - I like the focal length but I wonder how a two-lens setup might work!?

240 + 480 -> slightly shorter and longer?
210 + 300 -> no need for longer lenses anyway?

The 240s don't have much room for shifting...
The 1kg 300mm Sironar is fine regarding size + weight, but the 210XL or 480mm-lenses don't sound as nice... So rather an older and slower Tele-design?

Anything entirely different?

The lenses should be as sharp and contrasty as possible, it would be nice if I could use f16 at times to avoid diffraction without loosing too much off-axis performance.

4x10" seems much easier regarding lens-choice. The Sironar-S 210 and the Schneider 350 Compact (I have never seen similar MTF to the 210 with this IC) - any experience with them?

I'm tempted by the panoramic format - but I have a hard time understanding focal length with it - how has it affected your focal length-choice? Same horizontal angle but narrower vertical angle? Vice versa? Something in-between?

Maybe I have overlooked something!?

Thank you!

I have both vertical 4x10 and horizontal 4x10 camera systems. They each have their own backpack and film holders. That makes it real easy when I find what I want to photograph. . .I just grab the appropriate backpack. The 4x10 horizontal is a Canham and that backpack has a 6 1/2" WA Dagor, 240 G Claron, 305 G Claron, 16 1/2" Apo Artar and a 24" Apo Artar. The Canham bellows will extend to 27" which accommodates the 24" Apo Artar. The 4x10 Vertical was made by my husband, JB. That backpack contains a 120 Super Angulon, 210 Apo Symmar and a 19" Artar. I've been shooting 4x10 for 10 years and I love it. My 8x10 has been retired for 2 years now and I am exclusive panoramic format. Most of my shots are made with either the 6 1/2" WA Dagor, 240 G Claron or 305 G Claron. If I am making a shot that is within 100 yards of the vehicle, I will pull out the 8x20 camera. Depending upon what I am shooting, it will either be the 8x20 Wisner horizontal or the 8x20 vertical that JB made. I use a modified Zone VI viewing filter that is framed for the panoramic format.
Susan

Kimberly Anderson
11-Mar-2011, 22:44
Listen to Susan. She is the pro.

georgl
11-Mar-2011, 23:36
One camera for vertical, one for horizontal? Two backpacks? That's commitment to the art!
I've also wondered about this issue but couldn't find a L-plate for 4x10", I even mailed RRS that there might be a market for it.

cosmicexplosion
12-Mar-2011, 02:05
One camera for vertical, one for horizontal? Two backpacks? That's commitment to the art!
I've also wondered about this issue but couldn't find a L-plate for 4x10", I even mailed RRS that there might be a market for it.

any metal worker worth his or her salt could knock up an L plate in no time. $30

cosmicexplosion
12-Mar-2011, 02:09
but just use a modified dark slide to get two 4x10 negs on a single sheet of 8x10 film.

Vaughn


Hi Vaughn, I am very interested in your dark slides.

Is there any chance you could post an image or a explanation on how to go about making or getting them made?

thanks very much!

Andrew

Kimberly Anderson
12-Mar-2011, 05:54
I had never considered shooting vertical panoramas until I saw Vaughn's work. Then I saw Susan's cool vertical panorama camera and her work also.

I still haven't shot a vertical panorama, but the Canham 8x10 that I have allows me to shoot 4x10 in either the traditional horizonal format, or by rotating the back 90-degrees I can shoot a vertical panorama as well.

I still haven't shot a vertical one. I'm kind of nervous honestly. I just don't see the world that way. When the time is right I'll know when to rotate the back. ;)



One camera for vertical, one for horizontal? Two backpacks? That's commitment to the art!
I've also wondered about this issue but couldn't find a L-plate for 4x10", I even mailed RRS that there might be a market for it.

8x20_Pano_Shooter
12-Mar-2011, 06:58
One camera for vertical, one for horizontal? Two backpacks? That's commitment to the art!
I've also wondered about this issue but couldn't find a L-plate for 4x10", I even mailed RRS that there might be a market for it.

Before JB built the vertical cameras, I tried rotating the 4x10 on its side. It is not a matter of just turning a camera sideways. All of a sudden you realize that the tilts and swings of the view camera do not function for the same purposes as in the horizontal orientation. For example, if you want to tilt the back, you actually have to use the swing mechanism on the camera to achieve the tilt. When I am out shooting, I don't want anything to interfere with the creative process. JB did first build a 4x10 vertical back that I could use by removing the horizontal bellows and back. I got tired of switching backs in the field. That's when he decided to build the cameras for me.
Susan

Vaughn
12-Mar-2011, 12:20
I had never considered shooting vertical panoramas until I saw Vaughn's work. Then I saw Susan's cool vertical panorama camera and her work also...I still haven't shot a vertical one. I'm kind of nervous honestly. I just don't see the world that way. When the time is right I'll know when to rotate the back. ;)

Check this out (not LF, but wonderful verticals)!

http://www.searchingfortruenorth.com/

Vaughn

Vaughn
12-Mar-2011, 12:54
Hi Vaughn, I am very interested in your dark slides.

Is there any chance you could post an image or a explanation on how to go about making or getting them made?

thanks very much!

Andrew

I had some images of it, but can't find them on this computer. I have made a couple of them. The one I am using is a metal dark slide -- the plastic one was nice, but eventually broke. For the metal one I used a fine-toothed jeweler's saw and then a file to clean it up. The plastic one I just used a box-cutter and made multiple passes until it cut through.

Just drew this up -- not to scale (8x10). One leaves about 4cm all along the end to seal off the light trap fully. Note that I rounded off the corners to make it easier to insert.

The measurements are what worked with my darkslide -- they are not all exactly the same. One wants to have some overlap (X bigger than Y) so that one has a strip of unexposed film down the middle to separate the two 4x10 negs. I like to have enough space so that when I cut the negative in half, I am left with the same amount of rebate around each negative. To cut the negatives I just use a straight edge and Xacto blade.

Vaughn

scerto
17-Jan-2018, 04:14
Look back at your 8x10 work. Make a 4x10 mask and place them over your 8x10 negatives. You will learn a lot about what works, what doesn't work and what you might want to try in the future.

I am shooting 8x10 and 4x10 right now. I shoot the 120 SA a LOT with the 4x10 but hardly EVER shoot it with the 8x10. Those kinds of patterns will start to become evident as you look at and re-crop your 8x10 negatives.

Right now my 4x10 lenses are: 90, 120, 150, 210, 360, 19 inch and 21 1/2 inch. Admittedly the longer two lenses won't be used a lot with 4x10, they were purchased with 8x10 more in mind.

I don't think you will be able to find a 'formula' to help you determine which lenses you want, but you might be able to come close. Think of it as either a cropped 8x10, or a diptych of 4x5's.

PM me if you have any other questions. 4x10 has been my format of choice for about 3 years now.

Which 150 and 210 are you using for 4x10?

My only concern is about coverage

Bests

Jim Galli
17-Jan-2018, 08:30
Years ago I cut up a dark slide as pictured and did a half dozen 4X10's. It works very well. You can put 2 of them easily on one film sheet. Easy to develop that way also assuming one side isn't +2 and the other side -1. Never touched it again. Then, since I have long rolls of 10" film I bought a 6X10 back with holders for a Rittreck camera. Roll out 6 inches in the dark and cut. Same thing again. Made a half dozen and seem to never have returned to it. Meanwhile I've made quite literally thousands of 8X10 sheets. To each his own. I'm a lens fanatic. Probably have a hundred of them. Or more. Soft focus, sharp, uber sharp, etc. But the most difficult thing to come to terms with is, it isn't the format size or the lens that matters. It's what's in front of the lens and how you make the light work for you. Oh, have 7X11 also. The "golden mean!" And that one has made a few hundred sheets unlike the 410 and 610. That's a successful format but the camera is a good 5 pounds heavier than 8X10, so there's that.

Best of luck in your journey. The most important thing is to have some fun. BTW, don't forget about the generous coverage that old Dagor's have. 85 - ish degrees means cake and eat it too for a 210 on 8X10. Usable for 810 and 410. An old 180mm Dagor will cover 410 nicely. So will a 165 Angulon, but the Dagor is sharper in the corners. If you're going to dabble with Angulon's, I've found the pre-war ones, uncoated, to be the better ones. Just me. I never seem to keep them though.

consummate_fritterer
17-Jan-2018, 09:35
To my eyes the difference in perceived field of view between standard and panoramic ratios is minimal. For instance, a 300mm used on 8x10 vs. 4x10 will look nearly the same regarding perspective. Many will argue the point but that's what I think. Perhaps a ten percent wider lens for 4x10 vs. 8x10? But that's 270, the diagonal of 4x10.

For a three lens kit I'd have a 210+300+450. For a four lens kit I'd add wider a optic, perhaps a 120 or 150 Nikkor-SW. For longer I'd add a small/lightweight 600.