street photography wide angle for a Pacemaker Speed Graphic

[plusplus]

Hello there!

I got a Pacemaker Speed Graphic, with a 135 f4.7 Optar.
Now, I'm considering to dive myself into a brave project of street photography with my Speed. The question is: please suggest me a wide angle around 90mm that I can focus at infinity, possibly an f5.6 lens that I can find for say 200eu! Impossible? :)

thank you so much!!

[engl]

I'd go with a Angulon 90mm F6.8. It has just enough image circle to cover 4x5, but that is fine since you won't be using movements doing street photography. It is very small, so it will fold inside the camera. It is also inexpensive, getting one with a 200€ budget should be no problem.

90mm F5.6 lenses are generally Biogon types, which means a huge heavy lens with massive image circle, and they are going to be over your budget.

[plusplus]

I'd go with a Angulon 90mm F6.8. It has just enough image circle to cover 4x5, but that is fine since you won't be using movements doing street photography. It is very small, so it will fold inside the camera. It is also inexpensive, getting one with a 200€ budget should be no problem.

90mm F5.6 lenses are generally Biogon types, which means a huge heavy lens with massive image circle, and they are going to be over your budget.


mmm... like this? what about Copal 0 size?

http://cgi.ebay.it/Schneider-Kreuznach-Angulon-90mm-f-6-8-WIDE-5x4-LF-Lens-/320667490150?pt=UK_CamerasPhoto_CameraAccessories_CameraLensesFilters_JN&hash=item4aa9459766

thanx engl!

[Steven Tribe]

Buy a monopod and a top viewfinder from an old folder that matches the 90mm.
Otherwise you will fall over curbs and get your pocket picked!

[engl]

Yes that is the one. What do you mean by "what about Copal 0 size?"? The lens will need to be mounted on a board with a Copal 0 size hole, as will right about all 90mm lenses (the 90mm F4.5 Grandagon-N is Copal 1 I think).

What rangefinder do you have on your Speed Graphic, and do you intend to use it? If you have a side mounted Kalart finder you can calibrate it to any lens. If you have a top mounted rangefinder you will need to find a matching rangefinder cam.

[plusplus]

Yes that is the one. What do you mean by "what about Copal 0 size?"? The lens will need to be mounted on a board with a Copal 0 size hole, as will right about all 90mm lenses (the 90mm F4.5 Grandagon-N is Copal 1 I think).

What rangefinder do you have on your Speed Graphic, and do you intend to use it? If you have a side mounted Kalart finder you can calibrate it to any lens. If you have a top mounted rangefinder you will need to find a matching rangefinder cam.

I mean, now I got the default optar 135mm f4.7 mounted on my peacemaker so I would have to find also the right lens board (copal 0 size) for this 90mm angulon, right?
About the rangefinder, yep, I got the top mounted one but I do not think to use it so much...anyway, do you think I could have 100% scene (or 90% at least?) coverage with a top mounted rangefinder for such a 90mm lens?? In this case I could watch for one...
engl, I'm new to 4x5"...but it's fascinating, I want to give it a try on the field :)

[Dan Fromm]

Graflex made a little lens that attaches to a Speed Graphic's tubular view finder via the finder's mask slot. It expands the view through the tvf to match a 90 mm lens on 4x5 and a 65 on 2x3.

I'm not sure it will attach to a top range finder. If there's a slot for masks, it should.

MPEX usually has a couple. Call mpex and talk it over with Jim.

[rdenney]

I mean, now I got the default optar 135mm f4.7 mounted on my peacemaker so I would have to find also the right lens board (copal 0 size) for this 90mm angulon, right?
About the rangefinder, yep, I got the top mounted one but I do not think to use it so much...anyway, do you think I could have 100% scene (or 90% at least?) coverage with a top mounted rangefinder for such a 90mm lens?? In this case I could watch for one...
engl, I'm new to 4x5"...but it's fascinating, I want to give it a try on the field :)

On Graphic cameras (including the Pacemaker Speed Graphic), the rangefinder and the viewfinder are separate. Even with your top-rangefinder Speed, you look in a different hole for the rangefinder and viewfinder. Dan was talking about an attachment for the viewfinder.

Unless you can find a cam for the top rangefinder, it will not work with the 90. You'll have to focus using the ground glass, or by scale. And if you want to maintain the ability to use the 135 quickly, you'll also need another set of infinity stops and a focus scale for the 90. If you have the focus scale, you can focus using the rangefinder, read the distance from the current focus scale, and adjust the focus to show the same distance on the 90mm lens focus scale. For street work, though, I suspect most folks prefocus to the desired distance, and use their feet to get their subjects positioned at the right distance.

In addition to the Angulon, Graflex marketed their own Graflex Optar W.A., which is also small and light. (The same lens is also available as a Wollensak Raptar W.A.) Some say the Angulon performs better (in the center) and some say the Optar performs better. Given the difficulty of getting accurate focus on the street, those differences probably don't matter. None of them will be as sharp in the corners.

None of the lenses intended for Graflex cameras are mounted in typical modern large-format shutters, such as the Copal and Compur shutters that have (for the most part) standardized mounting holes. The Wollensak and Kodak shutters that were used with Graflex cameras use holes of a different size. The trick is to find the lens, and if it isn't already mounted on a Graflex lens board, then measure the diameter of the threads and find a Graflex lens board with that size hole. I seem to recall my 90mm Optar had a hole bigger than a typical 00 hole (which is about 26mm) and smaller than a 0 hole (which is about 34mm).

The Graflex shutters have the advantage of using shutter buttons that will align with the cable-actuated shutter release mechanism mounted on the body of the camera.

None of the Dagor-style lenses (such as the Angulon) will be really sharp in the corners, especially if you use apertures that would allow hand-holdable shutter speeds. Goes with the territory.

Another option which I have not myself tried is to go wider, to a 65mm f/8 Super Angulon. This lens is significantly wider, but it covers 4x5 and it's reasonably small and light. You might get better depth of field with that shorter lens, too, making scale focus easier. I have one of these lenses, currently mounted (incorrectly) in a Prontor Press 00 shutter, which would be a dandy shutter to use for this application. The original 65/8 SA's don't seat properly in the Prontor shutter, however, and need a bit of machine work on the decorative part of the barrel to allow the important threaded part to screw down all the way. I have hopes for that lens in a 4x5 point-n-shoot camera project that is on my list.

Rick "keeping Pace, not necessarily keeping peace" Denney

[plusplus]

On Graphic cameras (including the Pacemaker Speed Graphic), the rangefinder and the viewfinder are separate. Even with your top-rangefinder Speed, you look in a different hole for the rangefinder and viewfinder. Dan was talking about an attachment for the viewfinder.

Unless you can find a cam for the top rangefinder, it will not work with the 90. You'll have to focus using the ground glass, or by scale. And if you want to maintain the ability to use the 135 quickly, you'll also need another set of infinity stops and a focus scale for the 90. If you have the focus scale, you can focus using the rangefinder, read the distance from the current focus scale, and adjust the focus to show the same distance on the 90mm lens focus scale. For street work, though, I suspect most folks prefocus to the desired distance, and use their feet to get their subjects positioned at the right distance.

In addition to the Angulon, Graflex marketed their own Graflex Optar W.A., which is also small and light. (The same lens is also available as a Wollensak Raptar W.A.) Some say the Angulon performs better (in the center) and some say the Optar performs better. Given the difficulty of getting accurate focus on the street, those differences probably don't matter. None of them will be as sharp in the corners.

None of the lenses intended for Graflex cameras are mounted in typical modern large-format shutters, such as the Copal and Compur shutters that have (for the most part) standardized mounting holes. The Wollensak and Kodak shutters that were used with Graflex cameras use holes of a different size. The trick is to find the lens, and if it isn't already mounted on a Graflex lens board, then measure the diameter of the threads and find a Graflex lens board with that size hole. I seem to recall my 90mm Optar had a hole bigger than a typical 00 hole (which is about 26mm) and smaller than a 0 hole (which is about 34mm).

The Graflex shutters have the advantage of using shutter buttons that will align with the cable-actuated shutter release mechanism mounted on the body of the camera.

None of the Dagor-style lenses (such as the Angulon) will be really sharp in the corners, especially if you use apertures that would allow hand-holdable shutter speeds. Goes with the territory.

Another option which I have not myself tried is to go wider, to a 65mm f/8 Super Angulon. This lens is significantly wider, but it covers 4x5 and it's reasonably small and light. You might get better depth of field with that shorter lens, too, making scale focus easier. I have one of these lenses, currently mounted (incorrectly) in a Prontor Press 00 shutter, which would be a dandy shutter to use for this application. The original 65/8 SA's don't seat properly in the Prontor shutter, however, and need a bit of machine work on the decorative part of the barrel to allow the important threaded part to screw down all the way. I have hopes for that lens in a 4x5 point-n-shoot camera project that is on my list.

Rick "keeping Pace, not necessarily keeping peace" Denney


thank you all guys for your precious guidelines!! I'm a little scared going around with just a maximum aperture of f/8 Denney....:( even if 65 mm would be a geat wide angle I guess...dunno, I must think about this a little more..

[Brian C. Miller]

I have a Wollensak Raptar 101mm f/4.5 wide angle in an Alphax shutter. It's a nice little lens. Keep your eyes peeled, as I'm sure there's more of them.

[Frank Petronio]

Use fast film....

[Bill_1856]

Have you actually tried street shooting with your 135mm? Personally I find it an excellent choice for that purpose (not too wide, not too long -- just right).

[plusplus]

Have you actually tried street shooting with your 135mm? Personally I find it an excellent choice for that purpose (not too wide, not too long -- just right).

Yep, I found it too long for my tastes; I'm used to my mamiya 43mm f4.5 in medium format...peraphs it's just a matter of my eyes habit...
Brian, does the Wollensak 101mm 4.5 Raptar cover 4x5"? Will it focus at infinity?

[rdenney]

thank you all guys for your precious guidelines!! I'm a little scared going around with just a maximum aperture of f/8 Denney....:( even if 65 mm would be a geat wide angle I guess...dunno, I must think about this a little more..

If you are depending on a rangefinder or on scale-focusing, and if you will be viewing using a viewfinder anyway, there is no need for a fast lens. You'll find you have so many focusing errors at f/5.6 that it will really reduce your keeper rate. Even at f/8, the focus accuracy requirements for large format are not insignificant--depth of field is less with large format than it is with small format.

With fast film (Tri-X at ISO320, for example), you will be using 1/125 and f/22 in sunny conditions. 1/60 and f/32 with a monopod will improve depth of field.

The Angulon, Raptar, and Optar lenses we've described are designed to be used at f/22. They provide wider apertures for focusing and composing on ground glass, but at wide apertures they vignette badly and lose sharpness. The Super Angulon is a generational improvement on those lenses, but it is still best used at f/22.

Rick "f/22 and be there" Denney

[Brian C. Miller]

The lens focuses at infinity. However, the front standard is barely hanging onto the bed with a flat lensboard, and I have doubts of ever finding a recessed board. I haven't used the lens with film yet, but from Polaroids it looks like it covers nicely. Corner sharpness may be trash, but it may still be interesting.

Now, with complete disregard to what Rick just said, test your lens. My 4x5 Raptars and Optars don't vignette badly at wide apertures. You don't have to do anything sophisticated, but do test them and actually see how the lens performs at what aperture. My 135mm runs better at the wider apetures, but I don't go bonkers for movements from it.

Now, Graflex relabeled other's lenses for its own brands. I don't see a 101mm f/4.5 Raptar in the Graflex.org data (link (http://graflex.org/speed-graphic/lenses.html)) but I do see an Ektar 101mm f/4.5 lens.

There's a good Photo.net thread (link (http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/00QzGq)).

[Jon Wilson]

I love my pacemaker with its focal plane shutter. If you are looking for a 90mm lens...the congo listed on the forum would be nice.
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=73286&highlight=congo

[rdenney]

The lens focuses at infinity. However, the front standard is barely hanging onto the bed with a flat lensboard, and I have doubts of ever finding a recessed board. I haven't used the lens with film yet, but from Polaroids it looks like it covers nicely. Corner sharpness may be trash, but it may still be interesting.

Brian, which lens are you talking about here? The 65? If so, then all that makes a lot of sense and a 65 may not even be feasible on a Speed. But the 90 isn't that challenging, though in my experiments with my new-to-me Speed of similar vintage is that I do have to drop the bed.

I agree on the testing, mostly because tests get evaluated by the tester's standards, and not by any given set of standards assumed by people on the Internet. I may be thinking of 16x20 prints, and the OP may be thinking of polaroids. My comments on the desirable apertures for the Optar come straight out of Graflex literature, but then their performance standards are likely different from the OP's, too.

Rick "noting that sharpness is a state of mind" Denney

[Dan Fromm]

Rick, so you'll know, the 4x5 Pacemaker Speed Graphic's minimum flange-to-film distance is 66.7 mm. This from The Bible, 10th edition.

Per Schneider, 65/8 and 65/5.6 Super Angulon's flange-to-film distances at infinity are 70.5 and 71.5 mm respectively. When either is used on a 4x5 Speed, the bed will have to be dropped.

[Brian C. Miller]

Brian, which lens are you talking about here? The 65?

The 101mm. OK, I just checked again. At the infinity focus point, the front standard has about 1/4-inch clearance at the back rails.

I have attached a scan of the Fujiroid. Please ignore the "clouds" as they are from the Fujiroid sticking to the glass.

(added) Oh, yeah: the bed was not dropped for this photo.

[jp]

I don't have to drop the bed with my 90/4.5 nikkor-sw. This could be because of it's size the front objective is a couple inches ahead of where the compact 90mm lenses are. A smaller 90 would be a little more practical though. You're not going to be zone focusing at 4.5, but probably f16. depth of field isn't much at 4.5, and the large glass will attract more attention than a quaint old little lens on a classic camera.

[David Beal]

At f16 a 90 mm lens focused at 8 ft will be good from 5 ft to 26 ft. Screw it down to f22 and you are good from 4 ft to 500 ft. While f16 doesn't admit a lot of light it works -- like Frank said -- if you use fast film. HP5+ pushes easily to 640, and at that speed nominal exposure on a sunny day is 1/500 sec. (or 1/250 at f22). Knock off 3 stops for shadowless overcast and you are at 1/60 @ f16 or 1/30 @ f22.

Good shooting!

/s/ David