Photoshop Tone Separation Ques

[bob carnie]

Hi Photoshop Geekheads

I am trying to figure out methods for creating a highlight region, and a shadow region, negative, for multiple printing, using photoshop. **Black and White images for now.**

Is anyone here doing this on a regular basis and or have methods that they would like to share. I have looked around quite a bit have not seen much info.

I am not talking about channel splitting or creating L or K masks , but being able to create continuous tone negs of highlight region only, or shadow region only regions.
These negatives would be used in conjunction with regular negatives I am producing but used as accent extra exposure only... much like split printing in silver as a basic idea

thanks

Bob

[Lenny Eiger]

Bob,

The image is its own mask for a highlight or shadow. You can make it darker or lighter... increase the contrast of the application or apply the layer a small percentage. You can also invert it for the shadows vs highlights...

Dup it as an alpha channel and use it as a mask...

Lenny

[bob carnie]

Hi Lenny

I do not want to use the whole negative , I guess I could make a selection and create a ruby style mask that covers everything but the Highlights or reverse blocks everything but the shadows.

But .... I want to do special little things to the highlight or shadow , ie extra sharpening or such so I would love to be able to make a highlight or shadow region only negative.
I use to do this manually but I would like to do it easily in PS. I am sending an inverted file to my lambda and making direct silver negs . I am mounting the recieving paper to thin aluminum for multiple printing with separate distinct negatives.
I want to send over a full bodied file to lay down the initial exposure and body of the printand then either a highlight or shadow only file to add oommpphhh.
so my question is how do I see only the H/S regions that I want to accent or how do I separate them out in PS??




Bob,

The image is its own mask for a highlight or shadow. You can make it darker or lighter... increase the contrast of the application or apply the layer a small percentage. You can also invert it for the shadows vs highlights...

Dup it as an alpha channel and use it as a mask...

Lenny

[bob carnie]

Kind of like in the days of Ciba masking we would make a highlight protecting mask that was used on the trans to produce a contrast reducing mask.
Only the reverse.

[Mark Stahlke]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're trying to accomplish but I wonder if Tony Kuyper's luminosity masks (http://goodlight.us/writing/luminositymasks/luminositymasks-1.html) might be useful.

[bob carnie]

Hi Mark

I do not think this is what I am looking for, I will investigate further .
I looked at this awhile back but did not feel it was right, I may be wrong

thanks
Bob

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're trying to accomplish but I wonder if Tony Kuyper's luminosity masks (http://goodlight.us/writing/luminositymasks/luminositymasks-1.html) might be useful.

[Bruce Watson]

I do not want to use the whole negative , I guess I could make a selection and create a ruby style mask that covers everything but the Highlights or reverse blocks everything but the shadows.

But .... I want to do special little things to the highlight or shadow , ie extra sharpening or such so I would love to be able to make a highlight or shadow region only negative.

Bob, this is going to sound strange to you I think. But I'll try anyway.

What you're asking for is basically what Photoshop was designed to avoid. Photoshop's use of layers (in particular layer masks) lets you do exactly what you are talking about, *without* having to create a separate physical mask.

From my view the whole point of making a digital negative is to avoid just what you are asking to do. That is, to avoid making any physical masks. To avoid, indeed, any manipulation of any kind during exposure of the print. It should all be in the negative before you make that exposure. And that's just what Photoshop excels at.

If I'm completely missing the point you're trying to make, I apologize in advance. ;)

[Greg Miller]

This is a simple, if gross, method.

Use Select | Color Range, and change the selection in the "select:" drop down list from "sampled colors" to either "highlight" or "shadow". This will select all pixels that are either highlights or shadows. You can then inverse that selection to mask out everything else.

[bob carnie]

Hi Greg

Actually the method I am using in a round about way, I have recieved some pretty good tips over on hybrid that I am investigating.
The blendif tool looks most promising at this point.


This is a simple, if gross, method.

Use Select | Color Range, and change the selection in the "select:" drop down list from "sampled colors" to either "highlight" or "shadow". This will select all pixels that are either highlights or shadows. You can then inverse that selection to mask out everything else.

[bob carnie]

Hi Bruce

You are not missing the point. Photoshop should be able to put tone, pixels density on any area of the film I am making, in fact it does very well.

What I am trying to do is overcome the deficiencies or attributes of different print processes.

To me I like platinum prints , but the dmax is not where I personally like it in single hit prints. Therefore a dedicated negative to bring extra punch oomph pizzazzzs to the the shadows is what I want to do with an complete different hit.

Carbon prints are killer in the shadow and mid tone areas but for some workers find the highlights tough to control, basically very hard to keep within one hit. I would like to make a second highlight negative to lay down tone into the hightlights.

Basically I want to lay down tone where the process may be weakest.. hope this makes sense.
In the digital to inkjet world I believe you are correct , but with some of the alt processes some extra hits help.
I am kind of using my years of split printing in silver as a basis for this.


Bob


Bob, this is going to sound strange to you I think. But I'll try anyway.

What you're asking for is basically what Photoshop was designed to avoid. Photoshop's use of layers (in particular layer masks) lets you do exactly what you are talking about, *without* having to create a separate physical mask.

From my view the whole point of making a digital negative is to avoid just what you are asking to do. That is, to avoid making any physical masks. To avoid, indeed, any manipulation of any kind during exposure of the print. It should all be in the negative before you make that exposure. And that's just what Photoshop excels at.

If I'm completely missing the point you're trying to make, I apologize in advance. ;)

[Bruce Watson]

To me I like platinum prints , but the dmax is not where I personally like it in single hit prints. Therefore a dedicated negative to bring extra punch oomph pizzazzzs to the the shadows is what I want to do with an complete different hit.

Carbon prints are killer in the shadow and mid tone areas but for some workers find the highlights tough to control, basically very hard to keep within one hit. I would like to make a second highlight negative to lay down tone into the hightlights.

Basically I want to lay down tone where the process may be weakest.. hope this makes sense.

Ah, cool.

Sounds like what you want is to make something like a layer mask, then drop out the background layer. Then the mask becomes the "new" background layer.

Many years ago I learned how to do that. IIRC it's not exactly straight forward because photoshop protects the background layer from people doing this accidentally. Unfortunately, I never really had a use for the technique and so have forgotten how. All I remember is that it can be done. And that's half the battle. ;)

[Peter De Smidt]

Why wouldn't the following work. Create a high light luminosity mask. (Someone gave a link with tutorials on how to do so earlier in the thread.) You can subtract various other luminosity mask to limit the range of tones affected. Ctrl+J to place the selection on a new layer. Invert that layer. You now have a layer that can be used to "burn in" highlights.

One could use a shadows luminosity mask and get he same procedure for a mask to print down darker tones.

blendlf sliders are much coarser adjustments than can be made with luminosity masks, and if you really wanted, you can use blendlf sliders on layers made with luminosity masks.

[bob carnie]

I am going to try this , on various forums, tony Kuyper luminosity masks have been mentioned as well as Blendif methods , I am going to try all and see what works best for my needs

thanks

Why wouldn't the following work. Create a high light luminosity mask. (Someone gave a link with tutorials on how to do so earlier in the thread.) You can subtract various other luminosity mask to limit the range of tones affected. Ctrl+J to place the selection on a new layer. Invert that layer. You now have a layer that can be used to "burn in" highlights.

One could use a shadows luminosity mask and get he same procedure for a mask to print down darker tones.

blendlf sliders are much coarser adjustments than can be made with luminosity masks, and if you really wanted, you can use blendlf sliders on layers made with luminosity masks.

[paulr]

I only half understand what you're asking, but suspect that the blend-if sliders will give you lots of control and be easy to work.

[bob carnie]

Yes

It is actually a bit more difficult to explain than I thought. Moronica being my mother tongue , sometimes I cannot express myself as well as I would like.

I have sent an email to T Kruper to see if he can provide insight, as well I think working on the Blend If sliders may be helpful. I have to say Blend If and Apply Image are two of the more complicated features of PS but I am learning, and now I have a specific task that I feel I need to learn.

Years ago I made negative / masks for Ciba and Photocomp printing by hand and now I have finally found a reason to do it in PS.

I am sure once I get the workflow in my head it will be a piece of cake and I will provide some jpegs of what I am doing , why I am doing it , and the results on prints.






I only half understand what you're asking, but suspect that the blend-if sliders will give you lots of control and be easy to work.

[Peter De Smidt]

I understand trying to think about digital manipulation in terms of the tools we used in our darkrooms, but I'm not sure that it's the best path in this case. With transparencies and Cibachromes you had a specific response curves that you had to work with, and there were only a few ways to modify them, masking being one way. These days, though, you can adjust the file any way you like. Thus, you should be able to make a negative that prints how you want it directly, and there should be no need to make multiple negatives.

I'll give an example. When I first started bw printing, I found that I had to do herculean amounts of intricate dodging and burning to get the print that I was after. After a while, though, I learned how to calibrate the dichroic head of my enlarger so that I could change contrast without changing exposure. This allowed me to get my over contrast just right, and once I accomplished that, the dodging and burning to get a good print became much simpler, and the prints where better than before. Working smarter turned out to be better than working harder.

Thus, if the prints from your digital negatives aren't turning out the way you'd like, I recommend investigating how to get better control over the process in as straightforward a way as possible.

[bob carnie]

Hi Peter

David C over on hybrid is doing some pretty amazing things with second coating platinum prints. He is getting amazing Dmax increases with a second hit.

Keriks gum overs platinums , even though they are from the same negative are very compelling and quite beautiful to see in person.

Sam Wang is doing palladium over cyanotypes using different negs and IMHO are some of the most beautiful prints made.

I happened to have two Irving Penn worker series prints that were multiple hit to increase Dmax , in my shop last year, this was enough to make me want to go down this path.
His prints were the best platinums I have seen and I have seen quite a few.

This is the route I would like to follow with my printing.
Some processes just fall out at the ends and that is exactly the regions I want to address. I do not think it is a problem with the negs but rather the end process.


Bob


I understand trying to think about digital manipulation in terms of the tools we used in our darkrooms, but I'm not sure that it's the best path in this case. With transparencies and Cibachromes you had a specific response curves that you had to work with, and there were only a few ways to modify them, masking being one way. These days, though, you can adjust the file any way you like. Thus, you should be able to make a negative that prints how you want it directly, and there should be no need to make multiple negatives.

I'll give an example. When I first started bw printing, I found that I had to do herculean amounts of intricate dodging and burning to get the print that I was after. After a while, though, I learned how to calibrate the dichroic head of my enlarger so that I could change contrast without changing exposure. This allowed me to get my over contrast just right, and once I accomplished that, the dodging and burning to get a good print became much simpler, and the prints where better than before. Working smarter turned out to be better than working harder.

Thus, if the prints from your digital negatives aren't turning out the way you'd like, I recommend investigating how to get better control over the process in as straightforward a way as possible.

[Peter De Smidt]

Hi Bob,

You should do what you like, and I have no doubt that you know what a good print looks like.

We are talking a bit at cross purposes, though. There are two groups of processes being talked about. The first are those where a single negative can be made to get the required densities with a given process. For example, that's the case with digital negatives and silver gelatin prints. As long as the d-min and d-max of the negative can give d-min and d-max on the print, then all is well. Let's call these "simple" processes. The second are those processes which are a combination of processes, such as gum over platinum and so on. We can call these "combination" processes. With combination processes, it is certainly understandable that using more than one negative could be advantageous.

Earlier in the thread, the example you gave was making shadows darker and holding detail in highlights. If you're talking about doing that on silver gelatin, or carbon, or platinum or any single process, I don't see the need for multiple negatives. It's complication for the sake of complication. If, on the other hand, you intend using combination processes, such as David C, Sam Wang, and Kerik are using, then multiple negatives sound like a very good idea.

[bob carnie]

Yes I plan to do combination processes.
You are right when I make lambda fibres , I am very sure that if I have a L reading of lets say 95 for my highlight with detail I will get highlight with detail on the print .
I never considered it a simple process lets say in 2002, but now it is a very predictable process for me.

btw Tony Kuyper was kind enough to reply to my Email and I am going to have a phone conversation with him regarding my question here and other forums.


Hi Bob,

You should do what you like, and I have no doubt that you know what a good print looks like.

We are talking a bit at cross purposes, though. There are two groups of processes being talked about. The first are those where a single negative can be made to get the required densities with a given process. For example, that's the case with digital negatives and silver gelatin prints. As long as the d-min and d-max of the negative can give d-min and d-max on the print, then all is well. Let's call these "simple" processes. The second are those processes which are a combination of processes, such as gum over platinum and so on. We can call these "combination" processes. With combination processes, it is certainly understandable that using more than one negative could be advantageous.

Earlier in the thread, the example you gave was making shadows darker and holding detail in highlights. If you're talking about doing that on silver gelatin, or carbon, or platinum or any single process, I don't see the need for multiple negatives. It's complication for the sake of complication. If, on the other hand, you intend using combination processes, such as David C, Sam Wang, and Kerik are using, then multiple negatives sound like a very good idea.

[Peter De Smidt]

That's good to hear, Bob. I've only had minimal interaction with Tony, but he was very friendly and helpful.

[BillA]

We used to do a lot of this in screen printing, both with film masking and in Photoshop, building 8-12 color prints on black tshirts.

We used to start with a few of sets of identical files side-by-side: CMYK, LAB and RGB. Find the channel that most matches the density area you want to pick out, inverting as needed.

Add that into your master file as a new channel. Adjust levels to get a close approximation of your area. Use the Quick Mask to cut out the rest as you would with RubyLith.

You should be able to preview your image by assigning it an index or preview color. This will give you a reasonable approximation of your final print.

I hope this helps. I have a friend who is a color separator that might be able to help if you need it.

Kind regards,
Bill

[BillA]

Here is an example. I pulled the shadows from the K plate of a CMYK version, brought it into the master RGB file and colorized it as green to show where the second hit of shadow would fall.

[bob carnie]

Bill

this is pretty much how I am doing right now. I am thankful for all responses,
I did not think that this would be such an odd question.
I have asked on four forums and now have about 15 methods to try, this may take some time.


We used to do a lot of this in screen printing, both with film masking and in Photoshop, building 8-12 color prints on black tshirts.

We used to start with a few of sets of identical files side-by-side: CMYK, LAB and RGB. Find the channel that most matches the density area you want to pick out, inverting as needed.

Add that into your master file as a new channel. Adjust levels to get a close approximation of your area. Use the Quick Mask to cut out the rest as you would with RubyLith.

You should be able to preview your image by assigning it an index or preview color. This will give you a reasonable approximation of your final print.

I hope this helps. I have a friend who is a color separator that might be able to help if you need it.

Kind regards,
Bill

[bob carnie]

Hi Bill
good example, now if you invert that to negative I am sure it is close, Is that a black car or is it red? Therfore It would be considered the shadow neg?


Here is an example. I pulled the shadows from the K plate of a CMYK version, brought it into the master RGB file and colorized it as green to show where the second hit of shadow would fall.

[BillA]

The car itself it red. The green is the darkest shadows. Showing a film positive is a habit from working with screen printing (light exposure hardens the screen emulsion, the unexposed area washes away allowing ink to pass through).

Here's the example reversed out in proper form. The original image can be found here. (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=51947&stc=1&d=1298586977)

I also wonder if the Photoshop calculations option might not help you make the mask you want.

[bob carnie]

This looks like what I am trying to achieve.
It should be noted that I would be working from black white files and not going directly from the colour file.
Working from the K seems to be the way to go right now , I am investigating a bunch of other methods and will report back my thoughts.

The car itself it red. The green is the darkest shadows. Showing a film positive is a habit from working with screen printing (light exposure hardens the screen emulsion, the unexposed area washes away allowing ink to pass through).

Here's the example reversed out in proper form. The original image can be found here. (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=51947&stc=1&d=1298586977)

I also wonder if the Photoshop calculations option might not help you make the mask you want.

[Tyler Boley]

why complicate things? You can do exactly that and most options discussed so far with a curve, the beauty of which you can make and tweak exactly to your particular needs.
What am I missing?
Tyler

[bob carnie]

Tyler

I am not doing any thing new here, Irving Penns prints were done with multiple hit exposures using different negative, many artists use different negs from different channels to make multiple hit images.
I want to separate the image into three distinct negatives for multiple printing.

What don't you get about that?

Bob


why complicate things? You can do exactly that and most options discussed so far with a curve, the beauty of which you can make and tweak exactly to your particular needs.
What am I missing?
Tyler

[Tyler Boley]

I know exactly what you are trying to do, and certainly aware of the Penn prints and other processes mentioned.

But why not run any curve on it you like to get your desired black kicker and save as such. Same with any tonal area you want a separation for.
The various conversions to CMYK then save the K are more complex than necessary, and the K generated dependent on the particular CMYK converted to, and not necessarily ideal for you particular need... any other suggestion so far can also easily be done with a curve...

OK then... never mind.
T

[bob carnie]

Tyler

Yes
running a curve will work as you point out. Put a sample point on a shadow area, run a curve to make a selection as you point out , then read the before and after numbers and you will find that they dramatically change.
I do not want the more dramatic curve shape of this method, I want to maintain the same shadow detail number, as well as the same highlight detail number. The second hits are only for process problems , not the inability of recording this info on the film.
The point of all this is to compensate for physical process problems, carbons highlights are difficult to maintain due to the wash off process,
and Platinum d max can be increased with a second shadow hit, I don't want to change the contrast, but only put down more tones in these two problem areas.

maybe this makes more sense now?

[Peter De Smidt]

Bob,

No, this doesn't make more sense now.

Making any tonal manipulation, whether using a curve, dodging and burning, or whatever will involve a change in "the numbers," and changing some tonal values while keeping some constant inherently involves a change in contrast.

While I haven't made platinum prints, I have made carbon transfer prints, and even with everything written in this thread, I don't see why the issue can't be solved with better process control and a good use of curves.

[Tyler Boley]

sorry I jumped in Bob. Hope it all works out.
T

[BillA]

Bob, Sorry that I misunderstood that you're doing BW only.
You could try adding a second channel that would be the threshold (in this case, a 20% gray). Using 'Calculations' you would add the source to the threshold mask, which results in a continuous tone negative of only the highlights 20% and up.

Sorry if I'm mixing prepress and photography terms.

[bob carnie]

Its been a long day , obviously I am not expressing myself well.

There are those who feel that everything can be accomplished with a single hit neg approach to contact printing.
There are those who believe they can accomplish better prints by multiple registration hits.

I am from the second group and want to find a very simple PS method of separating the file into distinct regions and then make negatives of those regions only.






Bob,

No, this doesn't make more sense now.

Making any tonal manipulation, whether using a curve, dodging and burning, or whatever will involve a change in "the numbers," and changing some tonal values while keeping some constant inherently involves a change in contrast.

While I haven't made platinum prints, I have made carbon transfer prints, and even with everything written in this thread, I don't see why the issue can't be solved with better process control and a good use of curves.

[bob carnie]

Thanks Bill
Looking at your example , the highlight area looks correct , but I need to have the lower tones black not clear(completely black) so that the midtones and lower tones would not print but the highlight region you are showing will.
Bob



Bob, Sorry that I misunderstood that you're doing BW only.
You could try adding a second channel that would be the threshold (in this case, a 20% gray). Using 'Calculations' you would add the source to the threshold mask, which results in a continuous tone negative of only the highlights 20% and up.

Sorry if I'm mixing prepress and photography terms.

[BillA]

Oh! I see now. Hmmm.

[bob carnie]

Yes
thats the big Hmmmm I am tying to solve.
Bob

Oh! I see now. Hmmm.

[BillA]

I'll ask my buddy. I can visualize it in film using internegs, but can't quite translate it into a Photoshop workflow.

[Tyler Boley]

right? or some tweak of same?

[Peter De Smidt]

Tyler, you beat me to it. :)

[bob carnie]

Yes , these samples look exactly like what I am after.

They are really small on my screen do the numbers remain the same within the shadow and highlight of the two negs compared to inverting the original file?
I have found that using curves to isolate the region comes with contrast changes within the regions that I may not want.
After sleeping on this problem , I came to a simple conclusion that making film masks to lay over the original film would be the simplest option. Using select colour-highlight, shadow gives an immediately usable blocking mask . Or combinations of channels will work.

I was hoping to not go through the route of blocking masks as it means an extra layer of film sitting on the pins.
aluminum>paper>film> blocking mask- I am pretty sure it will work, but one extra layer of film in the combination go in the vacumn frame.

I have been given about 10 ways on different forums to try getting what I want using various PS methods I will spend some time trying each way and seeing what works best for my needs.

I appreciate all the replys.


right? or some tweak of same?

[Peter De Smidt]

Here's a curve method with a positive image for making a negative to burn down the darkest shadows.
1) Open image.
2) Pick the eye-dropper tool
3) Make a curve adjustment layer.
4) Use the eye dropper to check the range of tones that you want to burn in. For example, say you want to burn down the darkest shadows.
5) Place and anchor points on the curve such that the range of tones you don't want to change will be kept in a straight line. If the curve doesn't change, the tones won't change, and hence there won't be any change in contrast in that area. If you are really close to an endpoint, put a point up higher on the curve and drag it down.

Here's an example curve:
http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae37/peterdesmidt/shadowcurve.jpg

This curve keeps the dark tone's constant while pushing most of the other tones to white. Varying the slope of the curve will change the transition from affected area to non-affected area, with a steeper curve giving a more abrupt transition.

6) Flatten image.
7) Invert image to get a negative.
8) You can use any tool you'd like to modify the negative. For example, if there's a dark area you don't want affected as much as another area, you can add density to that area.

[bob carnie]

Thanks Peter and Tyler very helpful.
I will give this a go alongside a couple of other methods suggested and post some samples of work done. May take a month to go from PS to registered paper, but I will do the work.



Here's a curve method with a positive image for making a negative to burn down the darkest shadows.
1) Open image.
2) Pick the eye-dropper tool
3) Make a curve adjustment layer.
4) Use the eye dropper to check the range of tones that you want to burn in. For example, say you want to burn down the darkest shadows.
5) Place and anchor points on the curve such that the range of tones you don't want to change will be kept in a straight line. If the curve doesn't change, the tones won't change, and hence there won't be any change in contrast in that area. If you are really close to an endpoint, put a point up higher on the curve and drag it down.

Here's an example curve:
http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae37/peterdesmidt/shadowcurve.jpg

This curve keeps the dark tone's constant while pushing most of the other tones to white. Varying the slope of the curve will change the transition from affected area to non-affected area, with a steeper curve giving a more abrupt transition.

6) Flatten image.
7) Invert image to get a negative.
8) You can use any tool you'd like to modify the negative. For example, if there's a dark area you don't want affected as much as another area, you can add density to that area.

[BillA]

There is a halo effect that is very difficult to avoid. You can see it here in the reflection highlight on the floor that now appears to be solarized. This is what makes the question so complex.

[bob carnie]

The answer was right before my eyes with curves and a few here shown me exactly what I need to do . I am sorry to drag this thing so far because as pointed out it looks to be a very , very simple solve.

Where I was screwing up was not remembering to anchor point the region so that when a heavy curve shown by Peter , Bill and Tyler was applied , the area I was trying to affect was changed and I did not think to anchor the points.

Sometimes you cannot see the forest for the trees ( is that the saying??)
I was going into the k , applying channel masks to the k and getting somewhat what I wanted but it seemed like a lot of work . It is embarassing to me , the simplicity of the answer.

If nothing I have been given a lot of suggestions from the various forums of various methods to isolate tones and then make negs from and our small team The Toronto Farm Project will try them all, you never know there may be a simpler solution.
I am excited to start making alt prints from silver negs off our lambda and this workaround solves a lot of issues for me.

[Peter De Smidt]

Bob, I'm glad things are working ok now. Please keep us updated on your progress!

[Tyler Boley]

doing anything difficult and hopefully with finesse means exploring the literally countless ways NOT to do it... no way to avoid it since you are after something uniquely beautiful.
What appears to be a halo is in fact the assumed required densities for the highlight separation bump.
I think you will find the curves needed for what you are after will wind up being a bit different than the presumptions going in, but trial and error will tell.
For example, I doubt you'll wind up with the shadow bump using unaltered values in the area of concern, I suspect a harder line from clear (K) to black will be required to get the bump you want... keep in mind it's a second hit over previously printed densities.. if they were the same again you'd get the benifit of a dmax increase from the second pass but no expansion of the values within... they'd just be all darker and maybe even lose separation...
I also think the highlight separation will be a bit more contrasty than the original pass values to work, but then pulled back out sooner, but smoother and longer, than the example I gave. Lots of work to do.
Hope that makes sense, good luck with your efforts.
Tyler

[sanking]

I suspect that some of Bob's thinking on this results from conversations we have had about the problem of highlights in carbon printing. Since carbon is a very straight line process one must be very precise in terms of process contrast control and in exposure time if maximum shadow values are to be achieved while also capturing high tonal values. However, I am not entirely convinced that a multiple hit technique is necessary to achieve this goal as it could also most likely be achieved with process control and manipulation of the curve of the digital negative. But Bob may prove me wrong.

But for me the reality is that the process characteristics of carbon transfer printing reveal themselves much better in images that have a lot of texture, contrast, and rich shadow values, not in those with a wide range of values in the upper highlights. For that type of image I would prefer to print with pt/pd, where the natural tendency for highlight compression of the process is a significant aid in achieving your goal.

Sandy King

[bob carnie]

Part of my quest is the ability to add different tones to different regions of a print
With silver , We all can bleach sepia, gold and then iron blue and create a very dynamic blend of tonalitys.
With alt prints, by mixing in different pigments I believe that with multiple hits I can achieve this same tonal dynamic's in my prints.

In the 80's I did a lot of registration work by applying that knowledge to large alt prints today with the use of mounted paper to thin aluminum and punched to hold register pins I get to walk back in time.

The Toronto Farm Project is actually my wife and my, ongoing business venture. (we actually want to move to a farm to do this work) Currently we have about 8 members who are giving up their weekends to assist in many different processes. As well we have a bunch of trusted mentors walking us throught the processes.
Two of them have travelled to visit with Sandy and learn the basics via workshops Sandy teaches.

Three of them have spent time with Christina Anderson and gum process and plan to visit her again in Montanna this year hopefully.
We are now at a point where , carbon tissue is being made, four different processes are being tested, and although we are making film from the lambda, we have acquired a 24inch epson printer to learn how to make digital inkjet negs. In May Ron Reeder, Sandy and other alt printers are coming to Toronto, to teach their specialties and my TFProject team will be their drivers, coffee getters, and all around assistants.
This is an ongoing transition, which is only possible because I have a good business partner , who puts up with my crazyness.

I hope to move to only project based work in the next few years from the experience gleaned from all this testing and with Elevators help have the best of both worlds, commercial and fine art income.

[BillA]

doing anything difficult and hopefully with finesse means exploring the literally countless ways NOT to do it... no way to avoid it since you are after something uniquely beautiful.

I agree. When I saw the curves, I did a figurative head-slap. So simple, and yet I had forgotten all about it.