LF hikers ― is “Map & Compass” a dying art?

[Heroique]

Which LF photographers know how to get around in the woods w/o batteries?

That is, locate point A and point B on a paper map & travel between them w/ a compass?

If you hike the woods w/ your LF gear, do you think it’s an “important” skill anymore? Or is this just for “old-fashioned people” who distrust fancy electronics and like to think of themselves as true mountain men?

(If you’re short on time, please find your way to the final dashed line below – just don’t get lost. ;) )

― ― ― ― ―
Out on the trail – or when traveling cross-country – I used to meet people all the time who used (or carried w/ them) a traditional compass and USGS quad map … or another topo map whose scale was no worse than, say, 1:64,000. Instantly, they could pinpoint their location on the map & orient it in relation to their physical surroundings; interpret elevation lines; even correct for “magnetic declination” – a significant 17 or 18 degrees (East) in my part of the world.

Today – at least in my local woods – all this is a rare sight indeed. (And I mean both on the well-marked trail, and well off it.) Instead, it’s commonly no tool at all (and few recognizable orientation skills); or more rarely – but certainly growing more common all the time – a sophisticated piece of battery-driven gadgetry w/ an impressive (if abstract) knowledge about button pushing, satellite reception, useful applications, and available downloads.

It’s one extreme or the other.

My sense is that today’s most common perception is that map-and-compass orientation is unnecessarily difficult (or “primitive,” and prone to error), and that other electronic tools are unnecessarily expensive. “Besides,” these people ask, “aren’t trails supposed to keep you from getting lost?”

Steadily overtaking this perception is the one from hikers who do carry the sophisticated-and-usually-expensive gadget, and believe it’s absolutely necessary to maximize one’s safety in the woods. “Map and compass are better than nothing,” they say, “but why cut corners w/ old tools & manual skills when your personal safety is at stake?”

(No comment about those who believe a cell phone or iphone is all you need in a pinch to get the search-and-rescue people on the move – that’s another thread.)

― ― ― ― ―
Tell us – if you’re a photographer who explores deep into the land, what’s your view about keeping track of your whereabouts & ensuring that you can find your way back? If you can afford the latest technology and know how to use it, does familiarity w/ map and compass matter anymore?

[BrianShaw]

Yes, traditional navigation skills are becoming a lost art.

Last time I was in the woods I was testing some prototype GPS equipment with USMC when, all of the sudden, batteries failed. We weren't planning on being out for long so we didn't even have a map. Good woodsmanship, however, got us back to base anyway. Who needs GPS? Who needs maps??

In a separate incident I was showing some tourists how to get for here to there and pulled out a topo map. They were having difficulties learning to read the map because "there were so many lines that make the map confusing." :o

[Mark Stahlke]

I use a map and compass whenever I head into the backcountry and I do a lot of off trail bushwacking.

With a little practice, a map and compass is easy to use and quite accurate. Lightweight, no batteries required, no issues with satellite reception. What more could you ask for?

[Drew Wiley]

I might have said this before, but each year a young ranger friend of mine and I have a contest. We each bushwhack off trail in the high country, me using my instinct and experience of the lay of the land, and him using the GPS. The first two years I won easily, and actually had to prevent him from crossing over a cliff. Last
year it was a tie, after about 8mi each of us coming within fifty yards of my parked
truck. Another instance I was a couple thousand feet above a pass, slight above timberline, but could actually see the road several miles down. My 8x10 was set up
aimed at a small lake. Some German tourist arrives, literally stumbling over rocks
while he stares at his GPS. He sees me, "Where isssh the lake". "It's right in front
of you, if you just look", I replied. It was. Then he snaps back, "How can yooo desecrate natttuuure like das, wis that biggg thinnng?", referring to my Ries tripod.
So I replied, "Nice GPS, is that the model John Muir used?"

[Brian C. Miller]

I read about a couple of yuppies who called a ranger station and said that they were lost. They had a GPS, but didn't bring a map. After directions and repeated calls, the rangers finally told them to stay where they were, someone would come out for them shortly.

I was in central Oregon with a friend of mine who is an amateur geologist, and is the author of three Gem Trails books. He wanted to see an old lake bed with fossils, near Christmas Valley. Well, off we go, with him following the maps in the back of a book. Finally after some back-and-forth over the same road, I decided to stop at a farmer's house and ask directions. Yes, my friend protested mightily, conjuring images of Deliverance. The first house we stopped at had an outdoor museum of pristine vintage farm tractors. Nobody was home. The next house we stopped at, the old farmer's first response was, "You have an old map!" He proceded to set us straight, and off we went. Of course we missed the fossils, but we did go through the Lost Forest, and then through Stauffer.

Now, the interesting thing is, when I hauled out a GPS and got coordinates, my friend said, "That thing isn't right. It says we're here, but I know we're over here." (pointing at the map) (Later on I bought a GPS for him, put a lanyard on it, and named it "Albatross")

When I go out, I have GPS, maps, compass, and those little plastic grid overlays. Yes, I think that it's important, just as important as carrying at least a gallon of drinking water. It can be easy to get lost if you aren't paying attention, but it's also easy to get yourself found, too.

[Walter Calahan]

Love it when hikers batteries die in the GPS and cell phone.

Remember trees always grow on the south side of moss. HA!

[Drew Wiley]

They carry a GPS but forget a sweater and raincoat. At least they'll know where they
are when they go hypothermic. One of my most memorable trips is when I wandered off into the Wind Rivers for a week and never looked at my map once. I
got deliberately lost. When it was time to turn around, I pulled the topos out of the
bottom of the pack and headed back. Of course, with a geology background from
back in the day, you were expected to know how to make a topo map, not just read
one.

[Scott Walker]

I use back country and topo maps with a compass but carry GPS as well and have to admit that I will even use goggle maps when available (within a serviced area) on my iphone, but, if all the above failed or were lost I would still have an excellent chance of finding my way back to where I started or where I was headed without much difficulty. Before I start out I already know my route and have considered all escape plans incase of an emergency. There is nothing wrong with using technology but if you have no idea what to do when the technology fails you are screwed. And it will fail, although I have never had my Garmin GPS fail while out in the bush, I have had the chart plotter on my boat fail twice. Like in the back country I have redundancy on the water as well, my iphone lives in a watertight bag and has Navionics charting software and charts as a backup and I have and know how to use paper charts. I have taken marine navigation courses as well as back country survival courses (although the survival courses were a while ago, pre GPS) and both were based on paper map and compass navigation and what to do if these failed. In the marine courses we were not taught to navigate with paper charts in case the chart plotter failed it was for when it failed.

So to answer your question.....yes familiarity with a map and compass still matter very much

[paulr]

I hike off trail and climb alpine rock and snow routes. I bring a topo map if I'm unfamiliar with the terrain, but have never once needed a compas. Stopped bringing one years ago. I can see how they'd be useful if you were in an area prone to full whitout conditions, and if you were prepared not only by lots of practice but by having taken lots of accurate bearings on the way up. Maybe if I ever climb somewhere where these conditions are likely ...

A gps would be a great timesaver in some situations. I'd hate to become completely dependent on it (or anything else that needs batteries or can be broken or lost). if i could afford one that weighed next to nothing I'd consider it.

edited to add:
if you go out in featureless terrain, or unbroken dense woods, I suppose you might be well served by a compas. In the mountains, though, there are visual landmarks that let you orient the map.

[Drew Wiley]

One more story. My nephew was chosen for an expedition to an unexplored area of
the Karakorum on the Chinese side of K2. Because the trip was funded by a GPS
company as a publicity stunt, they were required by contract to use this for navigation, as well as satellite-transmitted digital camera images. Everything failed,
and if they hadn't have resorted to old-fashioned skills, several of the sherpas would
have become lost and died. They did manage to get some first ascents of peaks
around 23,000 ft or so (without the electronics) and all did return alive. One member smuggled along a 35mm film camera as a backup and got sued. Sad,
because the area was incredible, never seen before in history, and the only images
which have survived are wretched printouts from satellite receptions transferred
here (not exactly NASA technology).

[Roger Thoms]

A compass and a topo map came in very handy a while back while hiking in the back country in Yosemite. Started to get that uneasy feeling that we were going the wrong direction. Took a little time with the map and compass and we figured out that we were off coarse and going completely the wrong direction. Saved our butts or at least so unnecessary hiking for sure.

Roger

[Brian C. Miller]

Just ran across a new article in the local paper:
GPS can steer unwary drivers into disaster (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/travel/2014309399_trgpsdanger27.html)

"It's what I'm beginning to call death by GPS," said Death Valley wilderness coordinator Charlie Callagan.

[Heroique]

My sense is that today’s most common perception is that map-and-compass orientation is “primitive,” and prone to error.

I should say prone to “compass-inherent” error. That’s what these people mean, but there’s a lot less of that than they think.

And much more human error.

In fact, human error has almost “done me in” a couple of times! Once when I was taking & following readings, my Ricoh 35mm camera decided to interfere by hanging from my neck, dangling next to my handheld compass. The camera’s electronics kept skewing my readings 20 and 30 degrees (and my sanity even more). Another time, the igneous (volcanic) rocks in my region – because they can be strongly magnetized – did the same thing. This time I was in the forested Big Lava Beds south of Mount Adams (Wash. state) that are so fun to get lost in :o. I caught both mistakes before I led myself too far astray. In each case my compass was acting quite dependably.

[Vaughn]

Mostly by topo map...but their accuracy is not too dependable at times. During the daytime and decent weather, it is fairly easy to tell general directions. I don't really trust compasses -- and GPS even less.

When I was a wilderness ranger for the US Forest Service (10 years), I was sent up to the top of a mountain a few times as a fire look-out during lightning storms. The look-out tower was condemned, so I sat in my truck during the worst of the lightning storms and then ventured out in the calm periods.

Basically I called in the fires by orientating the maps to the land and calling in their location by township, range and section (and usually quarter section). A helicopter flew over one fire I had just called in and the helicopter radioed in a different location using the equivilent to GPS. They got it all wrong. As I could see the flames, and the location the copter called in was the backside of the ridge from me, it was obvious who was in error.

Once, after the lightning stopped playing around, I got out of the truck and walked around the look-out tower and saw a fire on my mountain -- that one was fairly easy to call in.

[Jack Dahlgren]

I'm with the people who have used topo's without compass and have done fine. Of course I've mostly used them in distinctive terrain during daylight so it is not very difficult. In featureless desert, forest or at night it would be more difficult. I'd still rather have a topo than any other sort of map, electronic or otherwise.

[Darin Boville]

This is a true story.

Once I was hiking alone in the Amazon. I had been dropped in by helicopter with the pilot given specific instructions to fly to a remote location--one not shared with me. We arrived before dawn.

I had my trusty Garmin and I had my trusty maps and compass. I would need them.

The vastness of the Amazon rainforest and the dangers therein presented no worry. I've got cojones the size of melons and a view camera to match. Back at the office I read about the he-man purchases on Luminous Landscape and laughed, my head thrown back laughing a long satisfying laugh, before heading out to cook the fresh-killed meat I had hanging from trees in the back yard.

In the Amazon, I was soon bitten by the sti-sti fly, a little known insect whose bite is poison. I was soon blind, alone, and disoriented.

No matter. I had my GPS with voice interface. All was well until the batteries died. Without hesitation, I pulled out my maps and navigated straight to my camp, four days away.

How did I read the map when I was blind? Before I left for the Amazon I had carefully marked in pencil a spider-web of trails from all points of the compass leading back to my camp. Later, in my blindness, I simply slid my finger along the map feeling for the slightly slicker areas of graphite and followed the line home.

It is trivial to find one's way with maps and proper preparation.

--Darin

[Steve Smith]

I would take a map over a GPS any day. I have no experience of GPS whilst hiking but have watched in car navigation systems turn normally sensible drivers into complete idiots. They take the long way round on a route they already know very well just because the Satnav tells them too.


Steve.

[bsimison]

As I've mentioned in another thread discussing what we carry in our camera bags, I always have a compass with me on trips, even when walking around major cities. In those urban situations, cutoff from the sun by overcast skies and/or the concrete jungle, it helps to know which way to walk when you emerge from an unfamiliar metro station.

I use GPS fairly often on trips to mark spots of interest, or to plot a track log of my wanderings for later review. But I always have a topo map and compass with the correct magnetic declination dialed in for the actual routefinding.

And as for car GPS, or "SatNav" -- they're handy, but I view them as offering only "guidelines" for travel. I've run across too many of them with incorrect or out-of-date map data to trust completely.

[Jim Michael]

Don't worry about getting lost, just push the button on your PLB and they'll send a helicopter out for you.

[Scott Walker]

Don't worry about getting lost, just push the button on your PLB and they'll send a helicopter out for you.

Sure, in a perfect world. I have an EPIRB and plan to never use it. These tools are for dire situations not to help you find your car at the mall.

[Scott Knowles]

I've always had problems using a compass (except the obvious uses) and always realied on maps and translating the landscape and features with one additional item, an Avocet altimeter watch. When calibrated (barometer) and set (specific elevation) they're accurate to 10 feet of elevation and with maps I've pretty much found my location. Directions, on the other path where I often find myself, have always been another problem, and this being a geographer. I have no sense of direction anywhere, which is why I use a compass.

I have gotten "lost" on a number of occasion, but I prefer to say, "I'm not lost. I just don't know where I am at the moment." Last fall I bought an iPad. I don't use it when driving (too distracting), only finding location(s) and basic directions. At least now with it I can show the map on the iPad and tell people, "See, I know exactly where I'm lost." A GPS has been on my list of things to get, especially one with add-on topographic maps, but it's never been a priority. In the end I always drag out a paper map.

As for compasses, they're good when the declination is set or known when not set, and we know magnetic north is slowly moving and some day may jump or even reverse. Let's hope we're not in some remote backcountry location surrounded by unfamilar terrain when the latter happens. According to scientist this is due or overdue.

[paulr]

One more story. My nephew was chosen for an expedition to an unexplored area of the Karakorum...

Yes, an unexplored area of the karakoram is a place where i'd want a gps, maps / notes from more than one source, an altimeter, a compass, and better compass skills than what I got.

Quite a different place from of the north american mountains where I play.

[Brian Sims]

A map and compass are part of the ten essentials. They are called that for a reason. And why not take them? Weight? For the featherlite hikers, drill a couple more holes in your toothbrush handle and you've offset the weight of a compase and map.

As far as knowing how to use them: I don't know how someone can use a GPS without first knowing the basics of map and compass.

[jp]

Much of the woods I hike in the GPS doesn't reliably work due to the thick canopy.

I like a GPS for recording my "tracks" and distances covered.

For most photographic purposes, I visit the same woods over and over and over and don't worry about getting lost. Understanding an area of woods and returning for different light and seasons is very creatively productive.

I'm apt to come across an ATV/snowmobile trail or come out in someone's yard if I walk far enough if I were lost. This is coastal maine woods, not inlands woods which are indeed huge and deserve at least a compass, map and other "be prepared" things one learns about in boy scouts.

[Ash]

I use maps in urban areas. I'd hopefully be able to work out a map in a rural area. I prefer GPS because it saves time.

[Robert Hughes]

GPS is like an automatic dishwasher. It's handy sometimes, but I'm just as happy doing it the old way.

[Preston]

I like doing it the old way, too. A map and compass are always in my truck, or in my pack when I am in unfamiliar terrain, including cities.

--P

[Doremus Scudder]

I carry a GPS a lot of the time, but am pretty good at orienteering as well.

However, unless the landscape is really featureless, I rarely carry a compass. I find a good quad map and a scan of the landscape features and sun position to be adequate most of the time. I really don't like hiking on a heading, preferring instead to follow features and contours. I try to plan my routes using the lay of the land as much as I can.

A lot of my day hikes are "out and back" hikes. Since I often don't pay good attention to where I am when I'm photographing, I've learned to carry a roll of surveyor's tape with me and blaze the trail out if I need to. Then, I return along the same route, collecting the tape as I go.

When I'm hiking other routes and really don't want to spend time with the map, I often just use my cheap handheld GPS to find my way back. I make a waypoint for "car" or "camp" when I set out and then turn the thing off to save the batteries. If I need to find which way to go at any point when I'm hiking out, I turn the thing on and get a bearing and distance. Yes, sometimes this results in walking around obstacles or doubling back, but unless I'm really pressed for time, this often results in photo opportunities too.

I guess one uses the tools necessary for the situation: out-and-back in a canyon requires nothing. Long hikes over featureless landscape to an exit point different than the start requires the whole shebang.

Best,

Doremus Scudder

[Drew Wiley]

I've been backpacking for half a century now, often drift far from trails, always have had a good compass tucked away somewhere in my first aid kit, and have never used
it, not even once!

[Scott Walker]

GPS is like an automatic dishwasher. It's handy sometimes, but I'm just as happy doing it the old way.

I find the GPS very handy and an exceptional tool especially when breaking trail, when your average speed is less than 2 miles per hour it can be the difference between having a very bad night or sitting back at camp sipping a rum and thinking about the great day you just had. It is less accurate to calculate this manually unless you know the area very well and there ate lots of good locational markers.

[bobwysiwyg]

They [GPS] are here and they are accurate. I use one all the time. However, in the back of my mind is a thought about the consequences to all, including commerce, should a major EMP wipe out the satellites. :o I was watching a TV segment about Alaska the other day, and a real-time GPS set-up allowed a plow driver to stay on the road during a whiteout. That's impressive.;)

[mrladewig]

I'm a map and compass user as well. I carry a GPS sometimes as it can be convenient, but I prefer the big picture that can't be shown on a 2.5" screen. I like the ability of a GPS to show ETA on a hiking route though.

One thing I do really enjoy from technology is the ability to make maps for any area you need now. I print my own from the USGS topo data on lightweight 11X17 matte photo paper and it works great.

[Stephen Willard]

I spend months in the backcountry every year. Last year on one trip, I was in Wind River for 26 days without coming out to replenish for film or food. I bring a GPS only for recording the location of each photograph I take.

I refuse to use the GPS as a navigational too simply because it is a complex device that can fail. I rely solely on compass and maps, and for me, I consider it vital that I maintain my orienteering skills. Using a GPS is trite. Using a compass and map is a complex skill that one needs to practice on an on going basis.

[goamules]

I always know where I am in macro terms; "Gila Wilderness, somewhere on the West Fork..." but not to the exact tree or 5 meter CEP. It's a matter of your goal and timeframe. If I'm hiking or riding my mules for several days, the above is all I need and I seldom pull out the map and compass. I never have a GPS or cell phone.

Now if I'm looking for a particular cliff dwelling, or trail fork, I get more precise and may look at the map. The compass is usually just to give me cardinal directions, not to route me in/out. Because most of where I go in the southwest either follows canyons (there's only one way to go), or I'm out in the open and can use distant mountain ranges for reference. It's big and open out here. Nevada...that way....Mexico....that way.... However, I have walked off the trail in heavy timber a couple times and been surprised how quickly you can lose your way back to it!

[David de Gruyl]

Real maps are much easier to deal with than GPS. For serious hikes, a map is a necessity. GPS batteries die, and electronics are sometimes funny and drop dead because it would be inconvenient for you. A paper map (or, better, a waterproof topo map) will never stop working. Compasses (and I can use one quite well) are slightly less useful than a map, and almost completely useless without the map.

But what about sextant? I mean, I know how to use one, but that art might be dying faster than the compass.

[Scott Walker]

A sextant does not help much in the bush but I do have one on my boat and sort of know how to use it:o

[David de Gruyl]

I did erase the part about needing only a chronometer and horizon to determine your location...

[Vaughn]

I always know where I am in macro terms; "Gila Wilderness, somewhere on the West Fork..."

As a wilderness ranger I once received a letter complaining that we did not have enough trail signs -- and that I should have someone who was not knowledgable about hiking walk the trails and tell me where signs are needed.

My philolosophy was that is one can't figure out which creek one just crossed or what ridge one is on without a sign telling you, perhaps one should stay to the city parks. Every trail junction had a sign -- that should be more than enough!

[paulr]

A map and compass are part of the ten essentials. They are called that for a reason.

I'm not so swayed by old boy scout rhetoric. Back in 1974 Yvon Chouinard urged alpinists to "leave most of the 10 essentials and other impedimenta behind; if you bring overnight gear, you will need it."

Climbers following his advice (which he learned from the best of the avant garde in europe at the time) broke new boundaries for the next decade.

Everything I bring needs to earn its keep. Sometimes it's a hard decision and sometimes not. Compasses are easy for me leave home, since I've never needed one in the kinds of mountains I visit.

Beginners of course should pack conservatively. You'll know you're learning when each time you go out you bring less crap.

I laugh when I think of all the crap I anchored myself with back in the '80s, when I was a gear whore and maximalism was more in style. I could barely climb my way out of a paper bag back then.

[domaz]

I know how to use a map and compass and I'm glad I have that knowledge. We do get whiteout conditions in these parts fairly regularly and there are a lot of trails around here where it is very important to stay within the lines. The example being the Muir snowfield which I believe Backpacker rated as the most dangerous (or 2nd?) hike in the United States. GPS's can work fine too if they have useful topo maps- but you always must have a backup map/compass. There was a story of a party on the Muir snowfield that followed there GPS right onto a glacier, I assume because it didn't have useful topo maps and they plotted their course wrong.

[paulr]

It's tricky to deal with a whiteout even if you have a compass and know what you're doing. you have to know your starting point with great accuracy, and you need to move in straight line units regardless of the terrain, using (and interpreting) whatever terrain cues you can find to figure out how far you've gone. It's very difficult if you're alone. In a group the person with the compas can at least send someone else ahead and keep that person on the right bearing.

There are almost as many ways to screw up with the compas as there are without it.

In most cases, in a whiteout on a glaciated mountain with no obvious trail or terrain features to follow, I'd hunker down and wait for conditions to improve.

[Robert Hughes]

... should a major EMP wipe out the satellites....
Heck, I was merely worried about a major dunk in the drink wiping out my GPS. If a major EMP happens, we will have lots of things other than GPS to worry about in the next, er, 20 minutes. :eek:

[Grif]

Can't let this one go by,,, navigation class for search and rescue folks. One of the new people, looking at a map and learning to use a compass,,, how come they make us learn to use declination, it's just so confusing. (it's almost 20 degrees out here).

[paulr]

Heck, I was merely worried about a major dunk in the drink wiping out my GPS. If a major EMP happens, we will have lots of things other than GPS to worry about in the next, er, 20 minutes. :eek:

True. And EMP is a problem for things that are plugged into the electrical grid; the high tension wires work as antennae and convert the electromagnetic waves of the explosion into a voltage spike. Pretty sure satellites aren't plugged in ...

[jnantz]

i don't have a gps ... or a cellphone that has it ...
( my phone is about 6 or 7 years old. )

but i know how to read a map, use a compass
survive in the woods, and maybe do first aid/rescue
if in a bad situation.

i also carry a pair of tin cans and a string in case
i am out of range and need to make a call.

[Brian C. Miller]

I have gotten "lost" on a number of occasion, but I prefer to say, "I'm not lost. I just don't know where I am at the moment."

"I have never been lost, but I will admit to being confused for several weeks."
-- Daniel Boone

I use the smallest Garmin that can still interface to a computer, the Geko 201. The simpler the tool, the more you have to use your brain. Kind of like LF...

[Brian C. Miller]

True. And EMP is a problem for things that are plugged into the electrical grid; the high tension wires work as antennae and convert the electromagnetic waves of the explosion into a voltage spike. Pretty sure satellites aren't plugged in ...

The largest solar storm observed was in 1859, also known as the Carrington Event. (Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859))

If the EMP is coming from a solar flare, definitely kiss the satellites goodbye, as there is nothing to shield them. The power grid would be down, as all of the transformers would be blown out. Without the electrical grid, Pentagon planners guess that within a year, less than 10% of the US population will be alive. We have a really big house of cards, here.

[Brian Sims]

I'm not so swayed by old boy scout rhetoric....Everything I bring needs to earn its keep. Sometimes it's a hard decision and sometimes not. Compasses are easy for me leave home, since I've never needed one in the kinds of mountains I visit.

I guess it depends on what you are preparing yourself for. I learned the hikers' ethic from my grandfather: "Be prepared to help another hiker out. Don't ever expect someone else to save your ass."

I can't remember the last time I needed my compass. I'll use the map to gage my speed. But that's not why I bring them. If someone is lost, I'm going to help. And having a map and a compass (despite the half oz of weight) may mean the difference in getting someone out safely.

[Sevo]

Without the electrical grid, Pentagon planners guess that within a year, less than 10% of the US population will be alive.

The rest presumably will die from boredom in the absence of TV and Internet.

[Drew Wiley]

I'm more cautious now that I'm older. But when you grow up wandering off into the
wilderness with nothing more than a Levi jacket, a book of matches, a rifle, and maybe a poncho, all this GPS talk makes me scratch my head. How did people get around for the previous million years?

[Heroique]

...all this GPS talk makes me scratch my head. How did people get around for the previous million years?

Below is the actual compass used by William Clark during the Lewis & Clark expedition.

It’s one of the very few remaining relics of the 1804-06 transcontinental exploration, and now part of the Smithsonian collection.

Clark’s accomplishment inspires confidence in the old ways, doesn’t it?

-----
“The captains held a public auction [after returning to Saint Louis], in which they sold off the public items that had survived their voyage. These included the rifles, powder horns, shot pouches, kettles, and axes. They brought $408.62. This was a dreadful disgrace. The artifacts should have been preserved as public treasures rather than sold for a pittance. But apparently the captains had always intended to sell them at the value of their immediate utility rather than preserve them for museums.” (Stephen E. Ambrose from his 1996 book, Undaunted Courage)

I presume Clark’s compass was a private item – not a “public” one – and therefore not part of the captains’ journey-end auction. My understanding is that Clark gave it to a friend, whose family passed it down as an heirloom, until the Smithsonian acquired it in the 1930’s.

[Greg Miller]

Here's an interesting article mostly about GPS causing troubles for people driving in remote areas: http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Adirondacks-puzzle-GPS-1032617.php

But a good quote from the article:
"Lynn Malerba, a state-certified guide who founded Adirondack Connections Guide Service in 2002 in Tupper Lake, cautions students in her GPS training class that relying on the device alone is no substitute for having a paper map and compass, and knowing how to use them."

While some very experienced people are fine without any navigation aids, the vast majority of people venturing into hiking areas need to have a map and compass and know how to use them. People who do not have the experience to navigate with a map and compass should only travel with other people who have those skills. Anything less is just asking for for a big problem.

I wish I had a nickel for every time I have escorted someone out of the woods in the dark after I finished my photography and was hiking out. Those people would have had a miserable night (or worse in a couple of cases) if I had not just happened to be there and stumbled upon them.

[Drew Wiley]

Lewis and Clark were attempting to plot distances and map routes for others, and for
general scientific accuracy. The actaul routes they chose were used by French fur
trappers already, then Indian routes known for thousands of years. They didn't discover anything in a novel sense, but only in the Anglo sense. Pushing all the way
across from the Missouri west to the Pacific was certainly heroic; but they wouldn't
have succeeded at all without a lot of help.

[Heroique]

...they wouldn't have succeeded at all without a lot of help.

Yes, and Clark’s compass, of course, provided an indispensable part of it. I think his most impressive talent was judging the value of every piece of geographical information that he & Lewis could gather, and synthesizing the best of it. A sublime effort of “Western” critical thinking, even if it naturally misconstrued plenty of information from friendly tribes. But remember the Marias River episode – there was plenty of bad, fragmentary, and missing information about the landscape, too; and the compass helped the captains navigate these potentially fatal “obstacles” as well.

[Scratched Glass]

Anything can fail, and any tool can be inaccurate for a number of reasons. Part of natural resources class I took taught compass skills. One of my class mates could not get an accurate reading from his compass. One the students said "What's wrong do you have a metal plate in your head?" his answer was "Yes, actually I do" He had had a head injury.

[Drew Wiley]

You are probably familiar with the recent popular review of the expedition "Undaunted Courage", which I enjoyed reading. Jefferson was certainly a savvy guy
when he sent them out. On the one hand he had great scientific curiosity and sponsored this as a true scientific survey. On the other hand, he realized how accurate mapping would pave the way for what later became known as Manifest
Destiny, stitiching the country from sea to sea. It was also a horse race. The Spanish had already reached through the Southwest into tributaries of the Missouri
and Mississippi, and the French were active clear through the Rockies and even into
the Great Basin (and spread syphilis the whole way). Canada was itself traversed
around the same time. But mapping something is a lot more like making a claim to
it, or at least facilitating others of your kind to do it. Somehow they managed to miss Southfork Pass on the way west.

[Brian C. Miller]

When I was in the Army we were taught to keep metal object three feet away from the compass when taking a reading. So of course we dropped our gear when we pulled out a compass.

[Heroique]

…Somehow they managed to miss Southfork Pass on the way west.

Southfork Pass? If you mean a better way over the Divide than the one they took (Lemhi Pass), then I think you mean either MacDonald Pass (going down toward Helena), or Lewis and Clark Pass (going down toward Missoula).

Anyway, I doubt they would have done any better w/ a GPS. ;)

Yes, Jefferson was an astonishing human being. Not only the visionary political thinker that you describe, but the country’s best naturalist, who actually trained Lewis how to be one in advance of the expedition.

[goamules]

It reminds me of the infamous "rock cairn" argument on another post. Some of which I saw yesterday, recently built along the 1/3 mile, obvious trail down to a local desert spring. Wouldn't want anyone getting lost in a sandstorm, heading down into the only canyon with green trees for 20 miles.... Must be when they are heads down texting and doing other electronics tasks when they should be hiking and looking!

[Thad Gerheim]

Southfork Pass? If you mean a better way over the Divide than the one they took (Lemhi Pass), then I think you mean either MacDonald Pass (going down toward Helena), or Lewis and Clark Pass (going down toward Missoula).

Anyway, I doubt they would have done any better w/ a GPS. ;)

Yes, Jefferson was an astonishing human being. Not only the visionary political thinker that you describe, but the country’s best naturalist, who actually trained Lewis how to be one in advance of the expedition.

I think you mean (Lost Trail Pass) on the continental divide between Idaho and Montana. And I think they tried to blame the Lemhi Indians for not giving them a better map. When they finally made it down the west side and the Nez Perce Indians found them along the Clearwater river, they were close to starvation. The Nez Perce Indians held a council (democracy) to decide whether to kill them or feed them! After what us Anglos did to chief Joseph and the rest of the Nez Perce, they would probably like to have that choice again.

I go into the woods to lose myself, but I do carry a map, along with enough food for about 15 days on my trips that I tell people I'll be out there for ten or twelve days. I go with my two horses and myself so I always let someone know when they might send out help if I don't make it back.

[Bill Burk]

I bring along a "Spot" which lets my family know where I am - without spoiling the surprise for me.

[Heroique]

I think you mean (Lost Trail Pass) on the continental divide between Idaho and Montana. And I think they tried to blame the Lemhi Indians for not giving them a better map...

All compass discussions lead to L&C and Lost Trail Pass!

Here’s why:

L&C went over the Continental Divide at Lemhi Pass, then while traveling Northward along the Eastern flank of the Bitterroot River valley, actually climbed back up to the Divide again, reaching either Lost Trail Pass or Chief Joseph Pass. But no one is really sure which pass. This is the most disputed portion of their journey.

As you say, in lieu of a better understanding from the Lemhi (that is, Shoshone) Indians, we can be sure that Clark was using his compass. ;)

When they finally descended (again) to the Bitterroot River, still continuing Northward, they met the Salish (or Flathead) Indians at Ross Hole. It wasn’t until much later, after their perilous journey through the Bitterroot Mountains, that they met the Nez Perce people, my favorite Indians.

In any case, as they headed West to the Pacific, neither Lemhi Pass, nor Lost Trail Pass, nor Chief Joseph Pass would have been preferable to MacDonald Pass, or Lewis and Clark Pass. Either of these two latter passes would have saved them several weeks.

[Struan Gray]

The more sublime the scenery, the less I need a compass. It's easier to figure out where I am; and it's easier to figure out where to go.

In the Alps I never once used a compass to navigate. Identifying distant peaks yes, but navigation never. On Dartmoor, where I learned to navigate, and in the Scottish Highlands, I regard my compass as an essential life-saver. Waiting out the clag gets tired very fast. I can still remember the safe bearings and paced distances needed to get me off the top of Ben Nevis.

Whistle, compass, spoon and toothbrush Then I'm a happy camper.

One reason I don't use a compass as much as I used to is that I now tend to re-visit old haunts. I'm also older and more experienced, so I do a lot of basic navigation like tracking the sun and keeping a rough pace count without thinking about it consciously. However, even in completely new places there is a habit of mind that quietly sets about collecting mental waypoints and confirming my orientation.

I don't suppose there are many people making Polynesian stick charts (http://vunex.blogspot.com/2007/04/rilib-and-kaelib.html) these days. But I do something similar with every new patch of landscape. When I was traipsing round my own lost corner of the Karakoram we did have an out of date 1:250000 hand-drawn map from the 1930s, but we quickly set about making our own detailed mental maps, particularly of tough passages like scree runs and lateral moraines. Photography is a natural part of the mapping process, and I like the way that these days LF punctuates a walk with memorable episodes, and how the resulting photographs will trigger not just one memory, but a whole linked web of associations.

[Steve M Hostetter]

Hello,

I live in Indiana which is one of the most populated states in the US where roads are laid down in grids or squares measuring no more then 7 miles apart from corner to corner .
Remote as they are they still lead you out and to your car or at least a phone.
I think that in the Nevada desert that number is as high as 40 miles which is a little over 2 days walking time = death.

I hardly ever use anything to navigate by where I hike since it's pointless for me.. I know the sun rises in the east and sets in the west but even given that I'm more likely to get turned around on the roads I travel in on.

Another good way to tell north is to look for the moss on the base of trees.. Sometimes when I'm hiking Hoosier national forest I'll travel up a creek and then backtrack, maybe leave a marker on a tree if the creek splits..

[paulr]

The place I liked having a compas was the car. I don't have a car anymore (and if I did I'd probably get a gps like everyone else). When driving I never had anything resembling Struan's navigatorial habits of mind, and venturing into the homogenous lands of strip-mall USA (like the suburbs of Denver when clouds hide the mountains, or almost anywhere in suburban new england) a compass could stop me for driving in circles for hours.

Unfortunately I only ever had those cheap suction-cup mounted ball-in-fluid models, and on hot days they'd cook on the dashboard, crack, and bleed all over everything toward a slow and oily death. After my third I gave up.

[John Jarosz]

People can't go anywhere in their CAR anymore without the GPS talking to them let alone hiking.

The GPS car thing is the single biggest contributor to travel illiteracy on the planet.

[Drew Wiley]

Wow. It's nice to hear some ideas about where Lewis and Clark crossed. I was invited
on a canoe trip last year retracing some of of the expedition on the upper Missouri, but
the scheduling didn't work out. My great-grand father went to live with the Nez Perce
right after the Civil War. But other than a few photo trip through that wonderful country, the closest I have come is to own a clever apaloosa horse!

[domaz]

People can't go anywhere in their CAR anymore without the GPS talking to them let alone hiking.

The GPS car thing is the single biggest contributor to travel illiteracy on the planet.

And also the most useful. I can't imagine any other way to find multiple unknown addresses in a complex urban area. Around here some roads can be named 35th Ave NW and be completely different roads than NW 35th Ave. It's insanity and I would rather learn my topo map inside and out than worry about learning about obscure street names in a urban area.

[rdenney]

I am a civil engineer, and therefore trained as a surveyor. Though I don't do that for a living, I am completely at home with most any map, and have no trouble identifying or navigating through terrain when I can see it.

But go hiking in the piney woods north of, say, Houston, and see how those terrain-reading skills work for you. The only relief in the terrain has been left by meandering creeks over the generally flat coastal plain. And the thickness of the pine canopy will make it difficult for a GPS to see the satellites, which do require line of sight. In those cases, map and compass skills really do help.

In the Appalachian ranges where I live now, the trails are usually well enough marked by repeated use to obviate any need for navigational skills, other than to satisfy curiosity. Occasionally, one will have to poke around a bit to see where a trail starts if it is overgrown, and the trails here receive little maintenance. But the only time I've ever resorted to a map or to a GPS have been when we were curious about what we were seeing--certainly not needed to avoid getting lost.

But I have been lost. I was driving my Jeep down the Pritchett Canyon Trail in the Behind-the-Rocks area near Moab, and had never been there before. We had spent the day driving up the jeep trails from the Needles District of Canyon lands to find Pritchett Arch, and having found that, decided to descended the trail directly to the river to go into Moab rather than retrace our steps.

I made a discovery on that voyage. Orienteering has two purposes: helping people navigate whose purpose is to get there, and providing a hobby for people whose purpose is to get lost. The same could be said of off-road or jeep-trail driving. I'm of the former group in both activities, using navigation skills as a tool to get there and using the Jeep to provide access to places not otherwise accessible. I don't do either for their own sake. Pritchett Canyon Road is intended for those who drive Jeeps on such trails as a hobby, not for those who just want to get there.

After the second time we'd had to winch ourselves over some obstacle too steep to drive, it got dark, and we lost the road and we camped. Thus ensued two hours of active discussion between me and my travel companion, also a civil engineer and map collector. We both have thousands of hours of professional experience working with USGS maps, but by the light of the Moon that night we could not agree from what we could see down in that canyon where we were. My friend thought we were further along and a bit of pressing on would result in a hot shower and a comfy hotel bed. I thought we still had some rough terrain in front of us better attempted by light of day. The repeating patterns of the canyon terrain were similar enough and well-enough aligned that a map and compass did not provide insight, at least by moonlight. A GPS, even one reading only lat-long coordinates, would have resolved the issue easily and we would have gotten more sleep. I had one (an early Magellan with vehicle-mounted antenna) the next time we went out.

I am frequently required to drive in major eastern cities to places with which I am not familiar, and having a Garmin navigational system is an imperative. The navigation it does is sometimes wacky; therefore, I check the route for silliness against a map before setting out and never let it override what I know to be a correct route choice. But reading maps while driving in a crowded city is a danger to the driver and to everyone around him--navigation displays have eliminated that problem even if we sometimes see lines of people taking the silly route through some neighborhoods. Nobody can safely read a two-foot by three-foot map while driving a car on, say, the Schuykill Expressway in Philaldelphia.

Early GPS devices only reported coordinates, and were useful tools for those who had maps to go with them (and the skills to locate coordinates on those maps). They were not useful to non-map-readers until they incorporated electronic maps within them. At that time, they were useful only to the extent the maps were accurate. That continues to be a problem. I actually like an iPhone app that I use for day hikes--it uses previously downloaded and stored USGS maps, and lightens my load considerably. But it's only useful for day hikes (which is about all the back-country hiking I do any more) because of battery life. And it can still be defeated by a tree canopy. (And I never depend on it in places where I cannot navigate by dead reckoning.)

Each tool that is available has advantages and disadvantages, and no one tool is perfect for every situation. Anyone who is risking their lives in the back country should decide which tools are appropriate, learn how to use them, and make sure to bring them along. There are times when GPS reveals its usefulness compared to maps and compass, and vice versa. Anyone who says one or the other is useless may be putting themselves are risk in any given situation.

Rick "wondering how many bones of ancient peoples represent the places where they became hopelessly lost" Denney

[Rick A]

I've been teaching orienteering to the BSA for over 30 years, never owned a GPS, probably never will. My 13 year old can find her way through most any woods with a topo and her compass. She knows the mountains around here without any help.

[Ray Fenio]

I learned to use a compass as a child and used it with the topo maps when I worked as a Ranger in Yellowstone. I would take a GPS if I had one but would never go without a map and compass. I have taught my children how to use a map and compass but it is rare to find hikers who know how to use them.

[Jeicob]

According to my compass north is in the direction of the driver to the left of me - all the way trough the roundabout!

[Louie Powell]

My sense is that today’s most common perception is that map-and-compass orientation is unnecessarily difficult (or “primitive,” and prone to error), and that other electronic tools are unnecessarily expensive.

That's quite true. But it is also true that there are those who believe that digital photography has replaced film-based photography, ball-point pens have replaced fountain pens, computers have replaced typewriters, etc.

GPS technology (when it works) is clearly superior to compass and map navigation. But there are those (including OP) who like the challenge of doing it the old way. I prefer LF photography, and I write with a fountain pen (several of them, to be exact). Sure, we are the minority, but that's perfectly OK.

New technology always tends to bring new features and advantages. That's the way progress works. And in the world of commerce, competitive pressures help encourage technological evolution. But our hiking (or photography, or letter writing, etc) is not done as a business but rather as a passion, and we can afford to CHOOSE to do things the old fashioned way.

[John Kasaian]

Map & compass all the way. No batteries. None in the camera, obviously, and none in the light meter either.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

Compasses are just one part of the map & compass technology. Topo maps all too often are out of date can't be relied upon in backcountry areas prone to slides and washouts. Hell's bells, in the federal forest I most frequent, the original surveyor actually went to prison for falsifying elevations, and at least one of the quads still contained such errors 50-60 years hence (very bad contours had me thrashing around in thick brush on a S-facing slope one 115˚F afternoon, looking for a non-existent trail for a couple of hours instead of simply believing my eyes.)

Nowadays, there's much better tech available. When planning a traverse somewhere new, I'll definitely "fly" the route in Google Earth before orienteering via maps alone (paying particular attention to when the sector was photographed). And I'll try to talk to someone local who knows the route or can generally advise if a big windstorm just created a bunch of blow-down trees last month.

[rdenney]

That's quite true. But it is also true that there are those who believe that digital photography has replaced film-based photography, ball-point pens have replaced fountain pens, computers have replaced typewriters, etc.

GPS technology (when it works) is clearly superior to compass and map navigation. But there are those (including OP) who like the challenge of doing it the old way. I prefer LF photography, and I write with a fountain pen (several of them, to be exact). Sure, we are the minority, but that's perfectly OK.

That's all fine with me--I like fountain pens (except I can't use them because they blow ink onto my shirt when I fly) and I certainly have no prboblem with old-fashioned large-format photography, if a Sinar F is old-fashioned.

But don't bring back that godforsaken typewriter!

Rick "ham-handed enough when there is a delete key" Denney

[BennehBoy]

Anyone that relies solely on a GPS is an idiot. Always carry a map and compass.

Even in the UK it's easy to get lost, the last time I was walking around Coniston I encountered an older gent who was relying on a GPS alone, he had all the best gear that money could buy, yet was still headed in completely the wrong direction from the town he said he wanted to get to, this was 1.5 hours before nightfall in a dense fog with a 6K hike to go.

I'm convinced he would have become a statistic if I hadn't managed to convince him that he was going the wrong way - it took 3 attempts and a lesson in map and compass to do so.

His parting words were "I'll have to get a map and compass, they seem to be really useful"!

[Shadowtracker]

Though I am very confident in my wilderness skills, I still carry a map and compass. I get more confused in the city than I do in the forest; but there is absolutely no reason to be without a compass and paper w/pencil. If a map is to be had, so much the better. At least with paper/pencil, you can make your own map, even if it's just a general one, it's better to know where you are than not. Most people I know, take a map and compass with them no matter where they go - but then, we might be the rarity. No batteries to die, no government issue location devices, no computer needed other than my brain; and that functions under even stressful duress.

[NicolasArg]

I still use a compass and a map. Wanted to buy a GPS for years but never did it for some reason. Still can't help to think about them as just an expensive toy. I'd like to buy a satellite phone someday.

[jloen]

Perhaps more important than getting from point A to point B is finding yourself with map & compass when you are lost.

For this, it's important to have a sightable compass, map, and drawing protractor (the C-thru plastic protractor/rulers are good for this).

Sight two known points in the distance, ideally at about 90 degrees from each other (ie one to the east, one to the south). Draw lines from sighted landmarks back towards your location, using the azimuth measured with the compass as an angle on the protractor.

X marks the spot.

[E. von Hoegh]

Compass and topo map, also an altimeter. Lots of the country here is up and down, or nearly so. GPS is too complicated, besides that weeny little display will never equal a 7 1/2 minute topo - not to mention the battery issue. Bring spares, you say? I like basic technology that works, ALL the time.

Why not? I use film, fountain pens, occasionally a slide rule, and my typewriter is an Olympia portable that works without electricity.

[picker77]

Grizzled old Luddite that I am, if I'm hunting in unfamiliar territory, especially where vision is severely restricted such as in breaks, ridges, or foothills, I carry a Silva Ranger that I've had for about 30 years and a topo map--and I've known how to use them since I was an Explorer scout. But they stay in a ziplock bag along with my spare batteries unless my GPS totally craps out, which so far has never happened. Certainly could happen, though.

Walk up to people in the mall and ask if they feel they could use a topo map and compass to find their way around the woods--I'll bet there wouldn't be 1 in 50, especially if the askees were under 40 years old. :) In the meantime the ACLU is doing their best to destroy scouting, both boy and girl. Sheesh.

[jloen]

Yes, the public and even a lot of hikers seem unable to visualize the terrain based on topographic lines. Once you develop the skill it's almost as good as a "fly over". But without the skill, map and compass orienteering with any accuracy becomes unlikely.

For a few years I lived in South Africa and attended orienteering races in areas around Cape Town. The most successful participants could simply glance at the map and then go (run full speed) to the sites to stamp their cards based mainly on visualization skills. Less successful racers were taking bearings and pacing and often getting into trouble by making it more difficult than it needed to be.

[Alex_B]

hiking back-country with map and compass for 20 years now. never saw a reason to take a GPS with me.

In particular since a GPS needs batteries, and if you are really off the beaten tracks you won't be able to get new batteries or charge for weeks sometimes. I do have the batteries for my SLR and my headlamp, and that is it. I do not want to carry more.

[tgtaylor]

hiking back-country with map and compass for 20 years now. never saw a reason to take a GPS with me.

In particular since a GPS needs batteries, and if you are really off the beaten tracks you won't be able to get new batteries or charge for weeks sometimes. I do have the batteries for my SLR and my headlamp, and that is it. I do not want to carry more.

GPS also needs satellites and satellites can be disabled by a Solar Coronal Mass Ejection (CME) rendering the GPS useless. Just imagine that you're out in the middle of nowhere navigating by trusty GPS and a CME disables all the satellites. What ya going to do then? This is not a far fetched possibility. We are currently in Solar Cycle 24 which is expected to peak in 2013. See http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/10jan_solarcycle24/

[insane_jumper]

I use both GPS and topo and compass. I think anyone who hikes into back country owes it to themselves to learn map reading skills. Its not that hard and when your electronics fail you'll be happy you did.

[Drew Wiley]

My nephew was required to use GPS devices on the backside of the Karakorum - a
completely unexplored, unmapped area roughly behind K2 on the Chinese side, simply because the GPS co was paying for the expedition. The gear fail completely for days on
end. They were over 20,000 ft in blizzards at times and two of the sherpas got lost, and
fortunately were found still alive a week later, snowblind, but at least not in a crevasse.
I once ran across some dude who banged himself up by tripping over a rock while he was
staring at one of those damn things. But the fun side is having contests - me with no map
a just hillbilly experience, and a much younger backpacking buddy with his GPS. We go way
off trail and see who can get back to the truck first. I always win.

[Steve Smith]

I'd like to buy a satellite phone someday.

That's something I'm never going to do. All of my phones have a lead and plug into a socket on the wall.


The GPS car thing is the single biggest contributor to travel illiteracy on the planet.

I agree. I have been a passenger in a car with a driver who has done the same route many times but because he had his new GPS with him, he took all the stupid detours it suggested. The GPS seems to turn people into idiots.

What's really funny for me is being behind a car where I live and seeing their GPS turned on. It's funny because I live on an island which is only 26 miles wide. You get to the sea before you get lost here!


Steve.

[John Kasaian]

We still do map & compass with the Boy Scouts. An altimeter is sure nice in the mountains. If you're in a featureless terrain its kind of hard to get bearing.

[Steve Smith]

An altimeter is sure nice in the mountains. If you're in a featureless terrain its kind of hard to get bearing.

I have never been in terrain that featureless that it has been a problem for me. What I do like is when it is obvious that the distinction between open land and wooded area on the map matches what I can see around me.


Steve.

[Carterofmars]

I know how to orient with map and compass. All I need is my Silva, a good map, and a Rosary, and I'm good to go. ;)

Need to know true North from your part of the country though.

[Jerry Bodine]

Mountain navigation training for me was an integral part of the Seattle Mountaineers climbing course in 1970. I have no desire to carry modern electronic gadgetry, because that training has always seen me through even the most dire conditions. I carry topo maps (that’s plural) of appropriate scale for the outing, Silva Ranger compass, and never without the altimeter. At times even 10X binoculars for route finding. Here’s an abbreviated story that some may find interesting:

Mid 70s, early in the year after winter of heavy snow, nice day, “hiking” with two buddies (overnight gear not for technical climbing).
Goal: Mt. Daniel (WA), close to 8000 ft, not a particularly challenging mountain, except for the few summit peaks (not the goal).
Attached image of east side (internet image, not mine). My pics from this outing not great.
http://www.summitpost.org/images/medium/711817.jpg

Approach from the steeper north side.
Approaching 7200 ft, very steep/stable snow slope, STRONG steady updraft hits, whiteout sets in, zero visibility. It’s true – mountains make their own weather.
Finally, a fairly level “bench” with boulders all around, drop the external-frame Kelty packs, one man to a boulder for windbreak, holler to communicate.
“WHERE THE HELL ARE WE?” “DAMNED IF I KNOW, CAN’T SEE A THING!
Gotta orient map, damned compass is going crazy … swinging every which way. Is this what hell is like? No, too friggin’ cold for that! Oh, what’s this? Rocks have funny orange streaks all over them… IRON, MAGNETIC! No wonder compass is crazy, gotta get away from these rocks for a reading, there that’s better. Ah, can get oriented now. Hope the barometer hasn’t changed much since the last altimeter check down lower.
What’s that? Blue sky, small opening in whiteout, oops it’s gone, what did I just see? A small buttress through the opening? Check map closely, a little wiggle in the contour line just above us - about an eighth-inch wiggle, could that be what I saw, another opening, yeah that’s IT!
“OK, GUYS, IT’S LESS THAN A HUNDRED YARDS TO THE RIDGE, THAT WAY, AND WE COULD BE OVER TO THE OTHER SIDE AND OUT OF THIS, LET’S GO.”
Sure enough, whew, “I’m hungry and a bit parched.” “Yeah, me too, let’s eat.”

[Drew Wiley]

I'm getting inspired. Think I'll start my own roadside gear stand and sell compasses with
a little magnet hidden inside. Easier than printing fictitious topo maps.

[Bill Burk]

I think it's ironic that I take very few pictures during these life-threatening trips ... When they are the very experience I am looking to photograph ...

I don't know if anybody mentioned this mundane reason to bring along map and compass: It is easier to caption your landscapes when you can clearly identify the peaks. (Assuming you don't use GPS).

[David_Senesac]

If I am an expert at anything, it is cross country hiking with topographic maps. Been an avid backpacker for 4 decades. For years I have usually hiked in unfamiliar ares while holding my maps in front of me. I almost always am aware of where I am on a crosscountry route especially on steep slope routes where being a bit off will land one in unpleasant class 3 and worse exposures. In the West one can usually see the terrain. So I rarely need to use a compass much less GPS except when in deeper forest where one cannot see landmarks. I also frequently night hike with headlamps and that is where I also always have my compass out in front of me. Obviously GPS would make nighthiking especially crosscountry easier at night.

[Jim Jones]

I find maps useful in planning any trip to unfamiliar territory, especially in urban jungles. I sure don't want to get lost there!

[Robert Opheim]

I have used a Silva Ranger as well for many years. They are a wonderful sighting compass. You set a bearing and hold the compass at arms length and look through the mirror to the matched needle. I was trained to use it in search and rescue training in the 1970's, with a good topo map they are very useful.

[John Kasaian]

We still teach our Boy Scouts map and compass. The Army still teaches map & compass(at least when I was wearing fatigues.) Why would it be considered out dated? My real Swiss Army compass (with the mirror that hung below the bezel so you could read the direction when you took a sighting) just started loosing fluid after 25 years.

[C. D. Keth]

I don't think it's a dying art at all amongst those who go into the woods further than a trail takes them. I do think fewer people are going places where they might get lost, though. There's a whole lot of walking on fire roads and thinking it's some wild backcountry exploration.

[Drew Wiley]

I have no problem in the woods or mtns, but I do get lost in Costco.

[Heroique]

I have no problem in the woods or mtns, but I do get lost in Costco.

Your inner-urban compass is better than mine.

Put me anywhere in the suburbs, and my needle spins like a propeller.

It settles a bit in our city parks & near the shoreline.

[RichardSperry]

When I hiked backcountry, an altimeter with a topo map was as useful as a compass(the altimeter had a compass in it). With both that you could pretty well pin point yourself to GPS accuracy.

I just use my phone now, mostly.

[rdenney]

Your inner-urban compass is better than mine.

Put me anywhere in the suburbs, and my needle spins like a propeller.

It settles a bit in our city parks & near the shoreline.

I find Seattle easier to navigate than most cities, except when it's raining.

Oh....

Rick "in Seattle right now, as it happens, or rather, Renton" Denney

[Bill Burk]

Hey I know where you are.

Bill "try that Chinese restaurant just across the street from the airport - ask for lobster" Burk

[Alex_B]

This August I was on top of a mountain in Scandinavia, stuck in deep snow, heavy storm, freezing temperatures and literally almost zero sight: You could not see your own traces in the snow, although they were two feet deep or deeper.

Without my compass, which was the most precise instrument we had to find the route down, I could probably not type this text now. Remember, too close to the cliffs edge, and you just go down with all the snow.

[Drew Wiley]

GPS is great for taking people right over cliffs, onto abandoned roads, or into bullet-ridden
inner city neighborhoods. I have a good compass in my backpack, but never use it. A good
reason to would be a whiteout.

[r.e.]

Maybe it's because of my training is in marine navigation, but I don't understand all the GPS bashing in this thread. It reminds me of 15 years ago when old salts kept going on about the need to learn how to use a sextant because the satellites could all go down (both systems at once) or the GPS unit could fail. The former argument was desperate. As for the latter, the obvious solution is to have a backup.

The key objective in an emergency, whether on land or water, is to be able to establish one's position and communicate that position to search and rescue authorities. GPS is unquestionably the fastest and most accurate way to accomplish the former. As for communicating one's position, on land, if out of cell phone range, GPS SPOT could save one's life, as it did for two men some months ago in Newfoundland, where I have my summer home. I'm kind of surprised, in a three page thread on navigation, that there does not seem to be a single reference to portable, cheap GPS technology that can communicate one's position in an emergency.

I don't spend a lot of time hiking in the backwoods, but for navigation on the ocean, in and out of sight of land, I use GPS with electronic charts, hard copy charts and a compass. Eschewing any of these tools, whether on land or water, on the basis of some analogue vs digital philosophy strikes me as hairbrained. Anyone who has had to navigate a boat in fog, or in the middle of the night across the English Channel via the Channel Islands, knows how valuable GPS and digital charts are, not to mention that they are indispensable the minute one is out of sight of land.

There are even people in this thread dumping on the use of GPS for driving. Right now, I am in Italy, a country chock full of local back roads. The GPS map functionality on my iPad has saved me hours of driving time and no end of frustration.

[Drew Wiley]

Well it's pretty darn obvious you haven't been around the mtns or woods much. Point A to
B via GPS is no substitute for knowing the lay of the land. And there are plenty of cases
here in the West where someone died by using a navigation aid on an automobile which
took them to some deadend destination (literally). My nephew had GPS gear fail completely
in the Karakorum and elsewhere. I often do contests with a friend taking crosscountry shortcuts, him with GPS and me just hillbilly skills. I always win. But the first few times he
tried getting off trail with one of those things, I had to accompany him or he wouldn't still
be around to tell about it. And they're all based on maps with certain inherent flaws. Just
another tool, but no substitute for experience - not even close. The accident rate to hikers in the high Sierra has actually gone up since those things got popular.

[Light Guru]

who needs a compass just use the sun or look at what side of the tree the moss is growing

[Drew Wiley]

Yeah ... I was recently coaching a fellow who did get lost once and was contemplating a
GPS, but still didn't know about moss, simple observations about where the sun rises and
sets (everybody knows it, but doesn't stop to consider it in a panic situation), or how to
read a basic map yet. Took him on another trip, along with another highly experienced
outdoorsman who just called me a few minutes ago, and taught him all kinds of tricks for
reading the woods, including navigation in the dark, basic rock scrambling. Think he'll be
ready for his first solo hike next yr. GPS certainly has its place, but John Muir, the
sheepherders, and native Americans for millenia certainly got along without one.

[r.e.]

Well it's pretty darn obvious you haven't been around the mtns or woods much. Point A to B via GPS is no substitute for knowing the lay of the land.

I didn't suggest that it is.

[C. D. Keth]

The accident rate to hikers in the high Sierra has actually gone up since those things got popular.

In this thread we completely agree. That is an unfortunate fact. I think it's a side effect of GPS being available, that it inspires false confidence in people to go out in the backcountry who have no business going there without some real skill building first. The people who know what they're doing still use GPS, they just also use maps, a compass, and knowledge.

[Drew Wiley]

Yeah, they bring along an expensive GPS but not a raincoat or sweater! I've had way too
many personal trips in the mtns ruined by having to walk out someone unprepared. I Autimn esp I generally carry a spare parka or coat just for such inevitable instances. It
will be 75 degrees under a blue sky. Someone will be dayhiking five miles from the road
wearing shorts and a T-shirt. Then within fifteen minutes the sky will turn black and it will
start snowing. Summer can be just as dicey sometimes. Had a backcountry ranger last yr
tell me how, even though the hiker had a GPS beacon, by the time the chopper got to them they were already dead from hypothermia. Actually, two instances like that in one
summer, just one part of one Natl Park. And the chopper pilot & crew risked their own lives
trying to get in there in a storm. Terrible price to pay for wandering into the hills without
the basics. Ounce for ounce, a raincoat is worth a million times more than a GPS device.

[Jody_S]

Personally, I will not trust my life to a GPS, a phone, or a map & compass. However, the combination of all 3, plus basic hiking skills, plus a minimum of gear, and I'm willing to head out. And I'll usually get some directions and a sense of the area as well, from someone who's been.

[r.e.]

Ounce for ounce, a raincoat is worth a million times more than a GPS device.

Why do you keep taking an either/or stance? Is there some problem with taking both a raincoat and a GPS unit/beacon?

Your posts bring to mind James Fenton's reply when Redmond O'Hanlon suggested that they team up for another of O'Hanlon's "adventures": "I wouldn't travel with you to High Wycombe".

I think that your tone and GPS bashing stance is irresponsible to the point where I wonder whether you are serious.

[bobwysiwyg]

Personally, I will not trust my life to a GPS, a phone, or a map & compass. However, the combination of all 3, plus basic hiking skills, plus a minimum of gear, and I'm willing to head out. And I'll usually get some directions and a sense of the area as well, from someone who's been.

Thank you for a well reasoned post to the subject.

[Drew Wiley]

r.e. - it's not an either/or, but in this part of the world there are plenty of day runner out
there who go as minimal as possible. They might have a water bottle but not even a fanny
pack with a lightwt parka. They might be in serious shape, but I've run into them several
miles from the road where a simple ankle sprain would be potentially fatal. If they slow down significantly at all in a downpour they lose heat fast. The other crowd at risk is just
toy obsessed without real backcountry experience. Even the backcountry rangers who pull
off most of the rescue naviage with landmarks rather than GPS. That works well in the mtns where peaks and valleys are visible, not so much in open broad forest. If I continue
to hike off trail alone in old age like I have often done, I might like one of those GPS rescue
beacons, but doubt I'll ever need one for actual navigation. There are cases where I just
wander off into unknown mtns and canyons and at most dig out a map later. Been doing
it my whole life. Like I said, I'm more likely to get lost in Costco.

[Steve Smith]

Your posts bring to mind James Fenton's reply when Redmond O'Hanlon suggested that they team up for another of O'Hanlon's "adventures": "I wouldn't travel with you to High Wycombe".

No one should travel to High Wycombe with anyone (or on their own).


Steve.

[Drew Wiley]

To follow up, r.e. - nobody who grew up in that country had either maps or GPS. I had
classmates in school who spent entire summers in the wilderness without any of that gear
they sell in camping stores now. Maybe an oilcloth slicker, a so-so slpg bag and a fishing
pole. This is just how we lived. I'd disappear into some of the most rugged canyon on the
continent for days on end when I was just a kid. The Indians did that for centuries. So don't talk to me about experience and who you'd trust or not in the backcountry. I am
life and death serious. And yes, I am still alive, so must know a little about what I'm talking
about. I only did about 10,000 miles of backcountry hiking before being officially an adult!
Not an exaggeration.

[Struan Gray]

Drew, I'm envious of your nephew. There was an interesting kerfuffle a few years back when it was discovered that the Chinese had made a large-scale model of the Aksai Chin, a disputed area near there claimed by both China and India. It's large enough scale that you can see it from space:

http://googlesightseeing.com/maps?p=1019&c=&t=k&hl=en&ll=38.264417,105.950732&z=17

Used for training tank drivers apparently.


R.E., my dad's an old school sailing navigator, and we both reckon it would be irresponsible to outfit a yacht without including GPS. Like taking kids on the water without life jackets: people do it, but it's a long way from best practice. The RN still teaches dead reckoning and jury-rigging sextants so they won't get lost if all power fails, or there's a EMP. Ships out of port still routinely take a noonday sight as a reality check.

The difference with hiking gear is that a GPS can be a significant part of the total outfitting cost. I would recommend people get one, but other things come first, like good boots, a well-fitted rucksack, and traditional navigation gear. The times I have used one, having an accurate altimeter which does not drift with the weather has been the biggest boost. Not usually a problem at sea.

OBfoto: A lovely new book of Scottish aerial photography:

http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/publication/?publication=scotlandslandscapes

Not likely to please the Grand Nature crowd, but excellent for those who like to look at landscapes as palimpsests, and are not blinkered by all that No Hand Of Man nonsense. I mention it here, because one of the images shows beautifully why you need a pair of bearings to get off the summit without falling down the north face or being avalanched down the south side gulleys.

http://canmore.rcahms.gov.uk/en/details/1227962/

[r.e.]

Drew,

I'm happy to hear that you know your local stomping grounds so well, and I agree that there are people who underestimate what is involved in dressing/equipping oneself properly and who underestimate what is involved in knowing where one is and how to get from there to a destination. To that, I'd add that many people fail to ensure that they are able to establish their position, and communicate their position, in an emergency.

I would not in fact go into the back country or onto the ocean (having sailed the Pacific, the Atlantic, the North Sea, the Caribbean and the Mediterranean) without a GPS unit and a way to send position information in the event of an emergency, and I would regard anyone who thought differently as a nut case.

I'm a big fan of David Burch's Emergency Navigation, I'm certified as a Yachtmaster and have a General Radio Operator's Certificate (which means that I'm certified to run communications/Inmarsat on major commercial vessels), and I know well how to use a sextant and a compass, but rejecting GPS and position notification systems is just cracked.

[r.e.]

The difference with hiking gear is that a GPS can be a significant part of the total outfitting cost.

In my view, the cost of a GPS unit, at least in North America, is at this point so low that it is hard to explain the failure to get one on the basis of cost. They are roughly the cost of a SOLAS life jacket, and about half the cost of an inflatable jacket. They are also cheaper than a pair of Nike Air running shoes. There's a point where this becomes a question of what you think your life is worth.

With current GPS beacon technology, Aron Ralston would probably have been rescued before it was necessary for him to amputate his arm.

[r.e.]

No one should travel to High Wycombe with anyone (or on their own).


Steve.

:)

People who aren't familiar with Redmond O'Hanlon, or James Fenton, might find it amusing to look them up, and maybe check out O'Hanlon's books.

[Drew Wiley]

Out on the ocean without visible reference points, or in a whiteout in the woods, is a very
different scenario than much of the West, where visual navigation has worked best for millennia. For me, GPS is just one more redundant gadget. When I'm out on a trip with others, it's getting almost inevitable that someone else will be carrying one anyway. On
the last long severe-weather hike we never even reference it, and only consulted a map to
identify names of distant peaks, just for curiosity. I'll invest one of these days in a rescue
beacon for old age use, no doubt. But if you want a case of ridicule I'll mention the guy
who kept bashing himself falling over rocks and stones while trying to hike looking at his
GPS. And people even populated the new world during the Ice Age crossing the waters without them. You sure would have taken a hazing from the cowboys. Emergency supplies
for them was a spare can of beans buried somewhere in the woods.

[Drew Wiley]

Wearing out my welcome, I realize, but I won't take anyone hiking with me who is wearing
a pair of Nike running shoes, or any of those glamorized tennis shoes which pass for boots
nowadays. In this day and age, I'm certain that a decent pair of mtn boots costs a lot
more than a basic GPS. First thing on the checklist - real boots, oiled and broken-in.

[r.e.]

Out on the ocean without visible reference points, or in a whiteout in the woods, is a very
different scenario than much of the West, where visual navigation has worked best for millennia. For me, GPS is just one more redundant gadget. When I'm out on a trip with others, it's getting almost inevitable that someone else will be carrying one anyway. On the last long severe-weather hike we never even reference it, and only consulted a map to identify names of distant peaks, just for curiosity. I'll invest one of these days in a rescue beacon for old age use, no doubt. But if you want a case of ridicule I'll mention the guy who kept bashing himself falling over rocks and stones while trying to hike looking at his GPS. And people even populated the new world during the Ice Age crossing the waters without them. You sure would have taken a hazing from the cowboys. Emergency supplies for them was a spare can of beans buried somewhere in the woods.

Let me get this straight. When you're an old geezer, you'll get a GPS beacon, but not before, because only old geezers get into a situation where they need to be rescued.

By the way, in coastal waters, visual navigation works the same way as it does in the "West", except, as you point out, when it doesn't (e.g. fog, whiteout, night).

And as you point out, you don't need a GPS because someone else has one anyway. What does that mean, that you are a cheapskate?

As for taking a hazing from "the cowboys" for using GPS, well that certainly sums up your macho view of navigation. God forbid somebody should use post 1800s navigation tools. Now I realise, thanks to you, that the sextant was developed for sissies.

[Struan Gray]

r.e., in the UK and Sweden GPS units are $100 and up. That's still a deal breaker for a lot of the people I've taught to hike and climb.

[Drew Wiley]

If you couldn't find your way about land without GPS, I sure wouldn't want you traveling with me. Join the cub scouts first. I'm already a geezer. Just read the other threads where
they're convinced of that. Senile, or in our Sierra teminology, half-human/half-marmot.
But marmots don't need GPS either.

[Greg Miller]

Out on the ocean without visible reference points, or in a whiteout in the woods, is a very
different scenario than much of the West, where visual navigation has worked best for millennia. For me, GPS is just one more redundant gadget. When I'm out on a trip with others, it's getting almost inevitable that someone else will be carrying one anyway. On
the last long severe-weather hike we never even reference it, and only consulted a map to
identify names of distant peaks, just for curiosity. I'll invest one of these days in a rescue
beacon for old age use, no doubt. But if you want a case of ridicule I'll mention the guy
who kept bashing himself falling over rocks and stones while trying to hike looking at his
GPS. And people even populated the new world during the Ice Age crossing the waters without them. You sure would have taken a hazing from the cowboys. Emergency supplies
for them was a spare can of beans buried somewhere in the woods.

You seem to like to build your case on the outliers, like people driving off cliffs and guy's bashing themselves on rocks when hiking and reading their GPS. Most people aren't that stupid, and those that are will die of some other unnatural cause if you take their tech away from them. Most people don't magically turn into idiots at the moment they purchase a GPS. Just because you don't need one doesn't make it stupid for everyone else to have one. Not everyone grew up playing with Geronimo as a kid and killing bears with their bare hands for dinner.

The real world is that most people don't die in the woods, do just fine with a map and compass, and might get some value out of a GPS if they have one. I personally have never found a need for a GPS to navigate by (I bought one years ago and never used it), whether on trail or not. But I do recognize my own mortality and carry a SPOT personal locator just in case I find myself unexpectedly in a unrecoverable position by myself.

[r.e.]

If you couldn't find your way about land without GPS, I sure wouldn't want you traveling with me.

Every post, you insist on this either/or dichotomy. You just flat out refuse to recognise that GPS and analogue tools can complement one another. And in your last post, you went on about cowboys navigating in the 1800s, and eating beans as emergency rations. If you are serious, I would apply to you what James Fenton said to O'Hanlon: I wouldn't go anywhere with you. And when it comes to sailing, I don't know anybody, without a major change in your attitude, who would take you on board as crew.

Meanwhile, your trashing of GPS as a tool for people driving cars is nothing short of hilarious. The genius of GPS in cars is that it frequently averts an act of homicide, involving spouses or close friends, between the driver and the navigator. And for those of us who are navigating unfamiliar places, sometimes in cities hundreds of years old with no obvious order to the streets, GPS kinda comes in handy... to put it mildly. As someone who has spent the last five weeks in Sicily, whose roads have been developed over the last thousand years or so, the absolute most entertaining part of your posts has been your slagging of drivers using GPS. You have no idea what you are talking about outside of whatever little geographic community you live in.

[r.e.]

But I do recognize my own mortality and carry a SPOT personal locator just in case I find myself unexpectedly in a unrecoverable position by myself.

Finally someone surfaces who knows what's going on with the technology and its value.

[Drew Wiley]

GPS can be downright dangerous if a person doesn't recognize its limitations. At the simplest level they merely recognize latitude/longitude and you need an accompanying map
to make sense of them. But what most people are buying have some sort of crude on-board topo map system too. And I emphasize crude. It won't show enough detail to allow
safe planning. Reminds me of the time a Boy Scout troop leader looked at a Forest Service
map and figured it was just a four mile hike from point A to B. Problem was, there was a
7000 ft deep canyon in the middle and eight of them died. Don't tell me people aren't that
stupid. I've seen my share of body bags atop mule trains.

[Greg Miller]

Where did I say people aren't that stupid? I said most people aren't that stupid. Using your logic people should not be driving cars either, rather driving mule trains. And to echo R.E.'s points your logic is also based on people only have GPS to the exclusion of all else. All-in-all a rather shallow and extreme position from which to build a sound argument.

Can a GPS be dangerous? I guess, yes, in the same sense that a fork can be dangerous. But it would be silly to argue against using a fork at the expensive of the benefits that a fork can provide.

[Drew Wiley]

GPS in the commercialized sense is now largely a navigation aid. They subscribe to maps
others have made. Did you know that every commercial map out there has deliberate flaws
somewhere on it just so they can catch someone pilfering their own work? These put those
flaws where they think it's harmless. And there are no instant updates, like the fact that
Forest Service gates get locked at a certain point. There have been horrific tragedies in
recent years do to this. This is a techie gadget era. People blindly rely on these things.
And both hikers and drivers have gotten killed due to the false confidence they inspire.
Correctly used, they can certainly supplement other means of navigation or assist in rescues. But honestly, how did people get around for the last hundred thousand years?
People died outdoors then. People still die now, gadgety or not. Go into the local REI
superstore and they sell twenty flavors of GPS but not a single decent pair of hiking boots. Two inches of snow on the ground and you're frostbitten.

[Leonard Metcalf]

I used to teach navigation and bushwalking (hiking) for a living. I wouldn't recommend relying on a GPS, and tell people that they need to be able to read and use a map and compass.

So yes I can use one, and there is a lot of potential for things to go wrong, when the battery goes flat, or the thing stops working...

[djhopscotch]

Go into the local REI
superstore and they sell twenty flavors of GPS but not a single decent pair of hiking boots. Two inches of snow on the ground and you're frostbitten.

FYI REIs don't carry the full line of snow boots in the warmer months, since the warmer months don't get much snow. You can get many decent pairs of hiking boots for any level of exposure at rei, you just have to look during the right season. Out of season they will order you a pair and ship to the store at no cost. I'll get off your lawn now.

[Greg Miller]

GPS in the commercialized sense is now largely a navigation aid. They subscribe to maps
others have made. Did you know that every commercial map out there has deliberate flaws
somewhere on it just so they can catch someone pilfering their own work? These put those
flaws where they think it's harmless. And there are no instant updates, like the fact that
Forest Service gates get locked at a certain point. There have been horrific tragedies in
recent years do to this. This is a techie gadget era. People blindly rely on these things.
And both hikers and drivers have gotten killed due to the false confidence they inspire.
Correctly used, they can certainly supplement other means of navigation or assist in rescues. But honestly, how did people get around for the last hundred thousand years?
People died outdoors then. People still die now, gadgety or not. Go into the local REI
superstore and they sell twenty flavors of GPS but not a single decent pair of hiking boots. Two inches of snow on the ground and you're frostbitten.

There you go again. A few stupid people die from blindly relying on a GPS, and therefore nobody should use a GPS.

I use my car GPS to get around the roads of New Jersey.
And I have used my boots purchased at Campmor to summit mountains in -30 degree temps.
I guess I should be thankful for the miracle that I am still alive and have all 10 toes.
And none of us should use car batteries because some people hook up the jumper cables wrong and the battery explodes in their face.

BTW, those 2" of snow help insulate the feet and keep them near 32 degrees, making it much less likely to get frostbite than if there was no snow on the ground.

[bobwysiwyg]

Drew, can you support this claim?


Did you know that every commercial map out there has deliberate flaws somewhere on it just so they can catch someone pilfering theirownwork?

[John Kasaian]

LORAN, Anyone?:rolleyes:

[Steve Smith]

Drew, can you support this claim?

http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/features/lieland/m3-3-1.html


Steve.

[bobwysiwyg]

Thanks.

[Bill Burk]

I carry a SPOT, it's reassuring to go out knowing you have a possible way to signal someone in an emergency. Please tell the people who monitor your OK messages to take "no news" as neutral news (unless you are overdue according to agreement). Because very often the device does NOT send a message.

If you really do need to get a message out, climb onto a promontory, the device needs a wide view of the sky. Most of my failed messages are from forests, canyons and ravines... Most successful messages are from wide open spaces.

[Drew Wiley]

Per maps and flaws, Bob ... Yeah, I've got extremely good inside info. But all the public has
to do is follow the lawsuits or rights acquitisions current to understand the nature of the
game. Per GPS reliablility in general, got a family member who was funded by a satellite &
GPS corp for a major expedition into a totally unexplored part of the Karakorum. The contract stated that they had to use the technology, but it they had relied on it, their
bodies will still be frozen up in the glaciers. It all failed catastrophically in bad weather.
Only experience worked at that point. Per boots ... well, guess some of you have never
seen a real pair. There was a time when you could walk into any major sporting goods store and pick up a pair of Swiss Raichles or Italian leather boots that would take some
real punishment. Plastic snowboots aren't the same thing, and they don't last that long
either. Got a friend pampering a heel injury right now for trying the best product REI had
to offer. These are disposable boots by any definition. If you can find a pair that fits, buy
more than one pair, because they might not be around next time. But you can't resole them. My last pair of custom made leather boots cost me $300 and lasted over twenty
years. That's equivalent to about ten pairs of store boots now. So what is the bargain,
something like this or those mass-mfg Chinese things? My current pair cost about $800, which is reasonable given inflation, but they sure fit well. Not a single serious blister in two years, and no wet feet.

[Scott Walker]

Can a GPS be dangerous? I guess, yes, in the same sense that a fork can be dangerous. But it would be silly to argue against using a fork at the expensive of the benefits that a fork can provide.

Well said.
I use GPS allot and love it, it makes life so much simpler. I do however know how to read maps and charts and reference them before going out, and if I know that I will have no visual references they are most likely with me when I go. GPS is just another tool, in my opinion the best tool, but still just one of a number of tools used to keep yourself safe when in the wilderness or on the water.
I recently discovered a new use for GPS, I went out snowshoeing with friends a couple of weekends ago and we were only going on a 3 hour trek & I knew the area fairly well so no GPS, maps, or compass were brought along. We were going out for about 1 hour 30 minutes then making a loop back to our starting point which in theory should have taken about another 1 hour and 30 minutes. After about an hour on our return trip Sarah started getting rather panicked because were in very dense forrest and it was snowing hard and then we caught up to a couple of cross country skiers that had just passed us that were concerned that they were lost and had decided to turn around and follow their tracks back to the highway, which was about 2 & 1/2 hours away. Both Wade and myself knew where we were and just kept going, but the further we went the more panicked Sarah got. We were right back to my truck within about 15 minutes of when we thought we would be, and neither myself or Wade had any second thoughts about where we were at any time, but a GPS would have made Sarah much happier because we could have shown her the nice little pink line that was shaped like an almost closed teardrop which of course would have represented our progress.

[winterclock]

Are the LORAN transmitters still on? Haven't used it in ages.

[Steve Smith]

Are the LORAN transmitters still on?

I don't think so.


Steve.

[Scott Walker]

Are the LORAN transmitters still on? Haven't used it in ages.

Canada stopped transmitting in fall 2010 and I'm pretty sure the US stopped about 6 months before that.
I imagine you could look it up somewhere, maybe try the coast guard.

[bobwysiwyg]

Per U.S. Coast Guard;


"The Coast Guard strongly urges mariners currently using LORAN-C for navigation to shift to a GPS navigation system and become familiar with its operation as soon as possible. Mariners will not be able to rely upon LORAN-C for navigation as of Feb. 8, 2010."

Better hope those satellites don't tumble to earth. :)

[John Kasaian]

Per maps and flaws, Bob ... Yeah, I've got extremely good inside info. But all the public has
to do is follow the lawsuits or rights acquitisions current to understand the nature of the
game. Per GPS reliablility in general, got a family member who was funded by a satellite &
GPS corp for a major expedition into a totally unexplored part of the Karakorum. The contract stated that they had to use the technology, but it they had relied on it, their
bodies will still be frozen up in the glaciers. It all failed catastrophically in bad weather.
Only experience worked at that point. Per boots ... well, guess some of you have never
seen a real pair. There was a time when you could walk into any major sporting goods store and pick up a pair of Swiss Raichles or Italian leather boots that would take some
real punishment. Plastic snowboots aren't the same thing, and they don't last that long
either. Got a friend pampering a heel injury right now for trying the best product REI had
to offer. These are disposable boots by any definition. If you can find a pair that fits, buy
more than one pair, because they might not be around next time. But you can't resole them. My last pair of custom made leather boots cost me $300 and lasted over twenty
years. That's equivalent to about ten pairs of store boots now. So what is the bargain,
something like this or those mass-mfg Chinese things? My current pair cost about $800, which is reasonable given inflation, but they sure fit well. Not a single serious blister in two years, and no wet feet.
About those plastic boots---I had a pair of plastic Technica ski boots, top of the line and about 8 years old. I took my family up to Badger Pass to ski and somewhere between the lift ticket window and where we left the skis in a rack, the bottoms of my boots just broke off.
No sking for me that trip!

[Drew Wiley]

My nephew went thru a pair of $400 Koflach boots every expedition. But back in real boot
days, I had a pair of moose leather double boots I could posthole into snow all day long
without getting cold or wet feet, and they lasted over 10,000 miles of hiking and climbing.
They were miserably heavy, however. There is still a fellow up in BC making these kinds of
boots for dogsledders and arctic explorers, though you'll wait a couple of years and pay up
to 2K per pair. I've got too much arthritis developing in my fingers to do any more real
climbing. My current boots were made by Esatto in Portland. He keeps the price reasonable
by utlizing modern CNC equip to cut the molds and various pieces, around $800 for the first
pair, with a substantial discount thereafter. Not real winter boots, though I've certainly done a lot of snowy and rough off-trail hiking in them.

[John Kasaian]

The last four years I've been using a pair of Italian made Alico Summits---mighty comfprtable after the break in and plenty good for my modest adventures. I think they're now up to $300 a pair but I got them on clearance from Sierra outpost for $170, IIRC.
Two years ago one of our scouts was hiking on the coast range and got bit by a rattler---the fangs went right through the "modern" boot materials.

[John Kasaian]

Per U.S. Coast Guard;



Better hope those satellites don't tumble to earth. :)
I hope those LORAN towers don't tumble to earth:rolleyes:

[richie4540]

I spent a year in Antarctica and used both GPS and maps, it really was important down there to have a map backup as the GPS would regularly freeze the LCD display when outside for a long time. Compasses are not much use there though as the closer you get to the south magnetic pole can cuase them to go haywire. before gps you used an Astrocompass.

richie

[NancyP]

REI still teaches basic map-and-compass skills classes. There are still a few map-and-compass orienteering outings locally. I use paper quad maps for my not-very-demanding trips, and always carry a compass. I know bupkis about GPS or fancy map programs for phones/tablets.

[Bill Burk]

I took a couple scouts (my son and his buddy) on a compass course this weekend for their 1st-class rank requirement. It was fun heading due North cross-country across a half-dozen "false trails" and through some scratchy manzanita stands until we finally hit the expected trail on the map. And it built their confidence when we counted paces to the point on the map we had aimed for. We were only off-course by 42 paces.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I learned compass and map hiking through my father as a child.
We used topo maps. Later, the knowledge was affirmed and fixed in military service.

What I did not get into was navigating by the stars.

[Drew Wiley]

I got tired of hearing about dead boy scouts. In one case the troop leader looked at a Forest Service road map (no topo), saw that was only six miles from the
trailhead of the North Fork of the river to that of the South Fork. .. too stupid to realize there was a 7000 ft canyon inbetween. The only kids who survived are the
ones who downright refused to follow him. Eleven died, plus the two adults. Or maybe it was eight out of eleven total. More recently it's been a string of lighting
deaths, crossing predictable bare granite slabs during afternoon storms. Then there's those Outward Bound ventures, taking inner city kids out into the high country
and after a few days with map & compass turning them loose on their own to work as teams without direct adult supervision. Crossed a body recovery of one of them
not so long ago, and mangled living rescues previously. I learned to make maps back in geology days, so particularly like good topo maps. I generally use them only
to identify names of peaks etc when I'm in some new area. In the mtns, landmarks are generally all you need to get around. Ski camping in winter in the forest
can be a completely different game. In a whiteout, compass or GPS can be pretty important.

[Drew Wiley]

Ha... John, I used to wear bellbottom pants as a kid cause the rattlers would strike the edges of the jeans rather than hit the leg itself. Only happened once. Had
thick boots anyway, just like now. The biggest risk was around the swimming holes on the creeks. My nephew and his pal had just returned from doing the third
ascent of the Dawn Wall up on El Cap (the only one ever since Royal Robbins chopped the bolts way back when)... and they were hiking along Sycamore Cr down
on the Kings, above Pine Flat. So another high school friend along with them wanted to show he was macho too, so quickly blurted out something to the effect that
a rattler won't strike if you pick it up by the tail.... Well, it took them a three hour hike just to reach a phone, and another three to get the kid into an ambulence
headed into town. They saved his hand, but there was little dispute over who won the snake vs human reflexes contest that time!

[Jac@stafford.net]

Ha... John, I used to wear bellbottom pants as a kid cause the rattlers would strike the edges of the jeans rather than hit the leg itself. Only happened once. Had thick boots anyway, just like now.

Boots are my friends. Two pair of excellent Red Wings, and one killer pair of tall, insulated military police boots that can tuck in. But as kids on the trails, all we had were Timber Rattlers and Copper Head snakes and military surplus tall boot gaiters. Never experienced a snake bite, but we carried the bite kits and knew how to use them. (Nobody young dies of bites from those snakes.) Every season we would splurge at a place named Mickey Finn Surplus. I'm sure they are gone now. That was about sixty years ago. I'm sure the hundreds of miles hiking and being prepared had something to do with me becoming a military medic.

Topo maps - Gads I love 'em.

[Drew Wiley]

Diamondbacks are pretty aggressive in the hills. The higher elevation ones, like those closer the coast here, are smaller and rather shy. Most bite deaths were to
boaters around the big reservoirs. They'd get out of a boat and get bitten near the shore, panic and start running. Doomed. In the cases most of us locals encountered, like the crazy incident I described above, you take your time and keep the bitten limb in a cool creek to slow the toxin circulating ... miserable but
survivable. ... I have somewhat deformed feet, so wear real US mfg Redwing boots to work and even for ordinary daywear. I can't wear shoes. But for hiking I need
true custom boots. Costs about a grand and take time to acquire, but worth it. Essato up in Portand made my last pair. They still do high quality leather stitched up
the old way, but increase production workflow by cutting all the components CNC, and doing something analogous 3D for the master, which they retain, then only
charge you half price for your next set of boots. My previous pair of custom boots lasted over twenty years and something like eight resoleings, so at $350 back
then turned out to be an incredible bargain over the long haul. The best pair of boots I ever had was a pair of true old-school Raichle double boots, Swiss-made.
I could posthole in deep snow all day with those things. They were hot and heavy, but I put in over 10,000 miles of rough mtn hiking with them before they were
stolen! Didn't fit nearly as well as what I have now, however. First pair of real boots I've ever had that hasn't given me real blisters breaking in.

[Jac@stafford.net]

I have somewhat deformed feet, so wear real US mfg Redwing boots to work and even for ordinary [...]

Sounds like my younger brother's case.

Red Wing Shoes proper is just North of me on good old Highway 61 that Bobby Zimmerman sang of. In fact I was part of a two-man team that wrote Red Wing Shoes' first on-line training manual.

One pair I treat like military dress and they look good even with a suit. Did you know that Red Wing will rebuild some models of their boots for you?

[Drew Wiley]

You have to ask even to see those kinds of boots. Most of what the Red Wing stores themselves show are the made in China substitutes. And only one of their
stores here even carries the real thing, versus the imports. Still, a so-so fit for me, and I'm distinctly hobbling around today. For four hundred or so I could have my bootmaker do me some dress boots. But what the heck. Even one of my nephews wears farm boots to give supreme court arguments, and wins most of the time. The owner of this company wears sneakers to the opera, despite the tuxedo top. Billionaires dress far worse than I do. They don't care. You don't like it, they just buy your company and fire you. It's the keeping up appearances types I can't stand.

[Drew Wiley]

OK, well yes... I do respond especially to that swirly foreground snowfield with the Maroon Bells in the background. No cliche there whatsoever.

[Jac@stafford.net]

You have to ask even to see those kinds of boots.

I take you at your word. I live in a relatively rural, perhaps an economical provincial (almost European) shopkeepers' economy in what is left of our Main Street. No foreign Red Wing products on our Main Street here.

[Drew Wiley]

That's nice to hear. We have a great boot repairman here. A very interesting Brit who actually supports a family in a conspicuously expensive neighborhood. But everyone knows about him, so he has built up decades of trade. Won't let anyone else but him even touch my mtn boots. Lots or real expedition types around here,
so niche businesses like that actually fluorish. But all the classic outdoor mfg businesses that started here are now largely in the import game. A friend on mine bought up the entire old North Face facility in Emeryville, including the conspicuous town water tower, but the basic remodel was up to twelve million at last count.
Looked great - indoor/outdoor koi pond, five hundred sheets of maple ply curved into waves for the celing. We wanted to build a wild gallery next door, but the
seismic retrofit would have cost far more than the bldg was worth (cute brick rather than our ugly modern office stuff), so that idea went afoul. One of the big
biotech firms bought the lot and leveled the whole thing, and are now putting up their private parking lot. Not really where I wanted a gallery anyway. Still too
much street crime down that way. The Redwing store about a mile away has an always-locked door, just for common sense safety. You can't just walk in. But it's
where the real boots are. They can't afford a burb location. Gotta sell trashy cool import tennis shoes at obscene margins for that sort of overhead.

[Bill Burk]

I got tired of hearing about ...

I know you're talking about somebody else. But, my boys were in no danger. Ticks were the worst threat. Once I realized the bushwacking up sucked, we abandoned the original course that called for bushwacking West. We followed the trail down instead and picked new route landmarks. We used Family Radio to notify camp of our changed plans. The SPOT only worked in open meadow, where four quarters at the payphone would have done as well.

[Jac@stafford.net]

How did people get around for the previous million years?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_DDSvIQeK21s/R23xRN5QHaI/AAAAAAAAAAU/YqmCQWNl7Bo/S660/ancient-gps.jpg

[gleaf]

Far from a dying art. The military for one has found there are lots of places where the wonder things do not work and map, compass and oh my! position from celestial observations are required.

[David Lobato]

Hemingway's Old Man and the Sea story totally fascinates me. The old fisherman in a tiny boat was so skilled at navigation hundreds of miles into the Atlantic for weeks at a time, with no technology, only his knowledge about the skies.

[Leszek Vogt]

I don't go into the less explored areas like I used to: back country of Yos, desolation area of Tahoe, Sequoia, etc. The compass was used only twice (in my entire life), which I deemed useless and the rest of the time the topo map did the trick w/o failure. Several places I went without any navigational tools....probably since I didn't venture all that far. After many many years of adhering to certain routes (work)....the compass in my head tells me fairly quickly when something isn't right. I prefer paying attention to the land's layout, streets, etc.,; therefore, haven't found any use for GPS.


That said, the place where GPS would become handy is above Brooks Range and out in the arctic tundra, where there are no indicators, such as trees, rising hills, etc....I would consider getting it just for that. For the most part I don't even bother with the crappy cell phone...or forget it in the vehicle.....or it needs charging :p.

Les

[Jmarmck]

I guess I am getting on in age, and it is beginning to show. As a teenager I was always heading somewhere out in the wilds of Northern Arkansas. I took an Outward Bound Excursion fresh out of high school and learned to navigate via topographic map and compass. These skills were reinforced with the extended trips into the Ozark Mountains the Buffalo River, and with a degree in Geography/Cerography/Remote sensing. 30+ years later and I am now working with Geographic Systems and water resources. I have a team out mapping agricultural irrigation systems, wells, and springs using $5000+ GPS systems. One thing that happens is that when a unit is close to a place with much electromagnetic noise, like a power sub-station, or under a dense canopy of trees, or even a thick cloud cover; these systems tend to fail to varying degrees. All my mapping teams have hardcopy maps for such instances. These are backups.

The point is that these system do fail for any number of reasons. Also, the degree of accuracy is highly variable depending upon service available and age/condition of the GPS unit. That said, I have GPS on my phone. It is turned off.......unless I dial 911. I do not have any kind of GPS in my vehicle. I don't need any more distractions while driving.

Though, I am curious. Does the unit tell you to turn left when you are 10 miles off the trail?

[Drew Bedo]

There is an excellent school for land navigation with a strong emphasis on map-and-compass in Quantico Virginia.

[ROL]

I learned compass and map hiking through my father as a child.

He must have matured exceptionally early!



What I did not get into was navigating by the stars.

Oh yes, everybody does that when in Hollywood.




...:D

[paulr]

Though, I am curious. Does the unit tell you to turn left when you are 10 miles off the trail?

Ha! Not sure, but I think turn-by-turn navigation is only available on streets and sidewalks. One day, though, the google lady eill say things like "reach with your left foot to a toe-hold at knee level 30 centimeters to the left."

In your experience mapping around sources of interference, to what degree do you find magnetic compasses are effected?

I have a compass program on my iphone, which is astonishing in all the things it can do, except that around the city it can be off by as much as 30 degrees ... which is to say, arguably worse than no compass at all. After reading a bit, I learned that electronic compasses are sensitive to all the electromagnetic noise that abounds in a city. And I found that my magnetic compass is fairly innacurate too (although better than the phone). The handful of times I've relied on a compas, it never crossed my mind to question its accuracy.

[Jmarmck]

lol yes any magnetic metal near the compass will pull the needle. Belt buckles, steel blades are the most common hiking items. But if the map is oriented close enough to mag north then one should be able identify the major landmark you are using as a guide or destination as long as the declination is not too bad. A foot or so should be enough distance. If you look at a USGS topo map in the lower right corner there is an angle drawn off the north arrow. That is the declination for that map. It is the angular difference between true north and magnetic north. It changes with distance.

As for electromagnetic sources. I guess it would depend upon the strength and proximity. I have had some mappers data right on within a hundred feet but some screwed up a few hundred yards. It depends on the source. Power lines can cause problem too. Often times there is no reason to it......at least none that I can find.

As to the iphone, I have not a clue how those operate. I don't know if they have a micro compass or whether it is an orientation off the towers and/or satellites.

[Drew Wiley]

Things can get pretty funny if the trail happens to wrap around a big outcrop of hematite or something like that, with a lot of iron in it.

[hoffner]

Things can get pretty funny if the trail happens to wrap around a big outcrop of hematite or something like that, with a lot of iron in it.

Hematite does not attract a compass needle, magnetite does. It is one of the way how you can recognise hematite from magnetite. So "something like that" should better be magnetite. :)

[IanG]

I'm no longer young, I was trained to use a good British OS map (usually 1" to a mile) and a compass, but I often have the metric equivalent of 2.5" to a mile with me. I do always carry a compass but the maps are so good I've never needed to use it.

Ian

[Drew Wiley]

You're right.... hematite usually occurs in clay form anyway, as an oxide.

[koh303]

When i learned to naviagte GPS was a military only technology, and accuracy was about 1m radius at best. The "hand held" unit was about the size of a closed speed graphic and had a 2X10 LCD panel which read codes out to you, programming it or getting around the screens was harder then programming a VCR to auto record your favorite show. The batteries did not last that long (definitely not more then a day) on a single charge, and they were not light either. Still, cloudless nights, when you cant see squat, or moonless couldy nights where the fog so thick your hand holding the compass disappear when you extend it meant that when i had a chance to not have to rely on using a plotted course on a paper map (wrapped in nylon...) with an azimuth reader and compass i took it. Does it mean i could not do without it? probably not, but did it mean i did not waste hours and kilomteres for no good reason? absolutely.

Some things, like technology makes life easier, and in the process eliminates what was once a skill saved for a few talented enough to learn it, but in return, many more can now do that thing that was once the privilege of the few. I guess its almost like the the effect the mechanical press had on the world of knowledge, or what digital cameras did to photography. If this is a good or bad thing is probably a discussion for another place.

[koh303]

one should be able identify the major landmark you are using as a guide
How can you see a landmark if you are in the woods?

[Bill Burk]

How can you see a landmark if you are in the woods?

First, assume you know relatively speaking where you are... Then you might have an altimeter... Then the compass will orient the map. Now which way is the trail heading? How many possible segments of the trail on the map correspond to the direction the trail's actually going? (At the elevation your altimeter reads)...

[tgtaylor]

How can you see a landmark if you are in the woods?

To traverse an area with a heavy canopy, you first plot an azimuth through it on the map and follow that azimuth noting the distances traveled left or right of that azimuth necessary to circumvent any obstacles encountered and return to it when possible. Your exit position won't be exact of course but you should be close if you paid close attention to what you were doing.

Thomas

[Bill Burk]

When i learned to naviagte GPS was a military only technology, and accuracy was about 1m radius at best. The "hand held" unit was about the size of a closed speed graphic and had a 2X10 LCD panel which read codes out to you, programming it or getting around the screens was harder then programming a VCR to auto record your favorite show. The batteries did not last that long (definitely not more then a day) on a single charge, and they were not light either.

I picked an early GPS at Goodwill late last year for $7.49, in mint condition including accessories - even a special edition "Thomas Brothers" atlas keyed to one of the coordinate menu choices. Original price sticker still attached showed $795.00. I got it more for nostalgia than anything (my ex-brother-in-law was an engineer at the company that made it - I got to use a clear-plastic prototype once). It works as designed (with deliberate inaccuracy), except it has a Y2K bug so it has no idea what year this is.

I've tried to imagine a circumstance where I would ever have the time to use that unit to lock satellites and display position, and navigate the menus to work out the coordinate transformation... I cannot imagine spending all that time. But I might leave the box in the car on road trips, to use in case I get stranded off-road.

[Rollinhofuji]

Experienced outdoor navigators never regard a GPS (even with built-in map functionality) as a substitute for map&compass. Apart from having to rely on batteries, you simply can not see enough details on their tiny screena. Either you are zoomed in and have details, but no surroundings, or you are zoomed out and see not enoughd etails. A map is totally different.
Living in central Europe, it's really difficult to get lost over here. I only carry map, compass, altimeter and GPS in the Alps - and since even there the tracks are marked well. I usually don't use these tools for determining "where" to go, but only "how long" still to go.

[Jmarmck]

There is no reliable substitute for a map and compass. GPS does not work well in trees. You need a clear view of the sky to acquire a lock on enough satellites.
If the unit looses lock it will simply stop till it reacquires enough satellites. Until then the unit is a paper weight to hold down the map you should have brought.
I they are useful but I would not rely on them. We run mapping software where the user records a point and then populates the attributes describing the point.
We used on older GPS on a project to map springs in the swamp in S. Georgia. It was very hard to get a lock under the canopy. Jan is also correct as to the limitation
of the screen size to map scale relationship.

In the places I have been in the US there are always land marks. The trick is to recognize them. But mountains are not the only land marks. Rivers, roads, and fire towers are good landmarks......................as long as you know where they are in relation to where you are and where you are going.............and they are on the map.

There is a trail running through northern Arkansas called The Ozark Highlands trail. A photographer, Tim Ernst, has dedicated his life documenting the region and in development of the Highland Trail. Orienteering is hardly necessary as crossings with landmarks are quite common. Still, a map an compass is a necessity. Gorgeous country anytime of year but early Spring (April) and Fall (mid to late October) are the best, and yes I am bias. Now that I have a 4x5 I really want to return. But I have the swamps to explore too.

[h2oman]

No GPS, map or compass?

[Drew Wiley]

That was the norm for most of human history. I have a good compass in my pack, but have never ever used it except to help train someone else how to use a
compass! Don't own a GPS. But do like good topo maps in unfamilar terrain.

[NancyP]

I get to be pretty lazy - my magnetic declination is between -1 and +1 degrees for 99.9% of my hikes in eastern Missouri and southwestern Illinois.

[ROL]

My magnetism has declined 1 degree per year since my all time high at 26. I am now quite repellant.

[Heroique]

I get to be pretty lazy - my magnetic declination is between -1 and +1 degrees for 99.9% of my hikes in eastern Missouri and southwestern Illinois.

Lucky you, you're talking about that bold black line below (source: NOAA, 2010).

It's pretty bad around here in the PNW, no chance to be lazy.

But that pales in comparison w/ what our igneous geology can do. In many areas, declination doesn't have a chance. When it does, "East is least, West is best"! (When I was a kid, I thought that was a moral judgment, not just compass talk.)

[Drew Wiley]

Get old enough and the magnetic pole will have drifted into your backyard.

[Heroique]

Get old enough and the magnetic pole will have drifted into your backyard.

:D

Not mine, continental drift will take it far away by then.

A clean get-away!

[Drew Wiley]

Look up paleo-remnant magnetism. It's method for dating ancient kilns, and has been used in relation to Anaszi ruins. When the clay is fired, certain particles realigned toward the contemporaneous magnetic pole. By seeing where the particles point, the position of the magnetic pole at that time can be determined.
In other words, the magnetic pole moves about must faster than continental drift. But if you have to take both into account, I'll also have to ask you what brand
of sheet film you used in Gondwanaland.

[NancyP]

Jmarmck, Tim Ernst has done a great service to the Arkansas Ozarks region with his series of guidebooks. I am still working through "60 hikes within 60 miles of St. Louis" guidebook, but after I have familiarized myself with these areas and with some other national forests and national fish and wildlife refuges in MO, the Southern IL Shawnee National Forest and Arkansas Buffalo River and the Ozark and Ouachita National Forests are next.

[Jmarmck]

Jmarmck, Tim Ernst has done a great service to the Arkansas Ozarks region with his series of guidebooks. I am still working through "60 hikes within 60 miles of St. Louis" guidebook, but after I have familiarized myself with these areas and with some other national forests and national fish and wildlife refuges in MO, the Southern IL Shawnee National Forest and Arkansas Buffalo River and the Ozark and Ouachita National Forests are next.
Well I might not live in Arkansas any more but my heart is still there. I was born and raise there and still am a resident in a disconnected sort of way. I love the Buffalo particularly the Ponca area down to Jasper. That is where most of the white water is located. But I spent a lot of time around a host town called Rush. Zinc was mined there in the early half of 1900. It is the last take out point before the confluence with the White River below Bull Shoals Dam. But there are many areas in the northern part of the state worth of a good hike with a 4x5 camera. Contact me when you get around to visiting that region. I might be able to offer some advice.

If you like to float and fish there is a small river called the Kings. It is locally well known for the small mouth bass.