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Two23
27-Feb-2011, 12:29
The 6 inch Derogy Petzval is working out well for me, and now I'm thinking of adding another lens from a different time period. I'm now thinking of 1890-1910. I want a lens that was very popular, that every photographer would have either had or known about. Would have been state of art at the time. I'm after a vintage look, so razor sharpness isn't essential important. Lens must have a working shutter of some kind. Looking for focal length 90-150mm, i.e. on the wide side for 4x5. Now for what might make this tougher. Must fit on a Shen Hao lens board, which is about 3 & 5/8 inches wide. I know there were Tessar's then, and maybe Heliars. Were they fairly common? This would have predated mechanical shutters such as Derval, wouldn't it? Are pneumatic shutters asking for trouble?


Kent in SD

Dan Fromm
27-Feb-2011, 12:46
Protars. Dagors. Unars. Unos. Cooke triplets from Taylor, Taylor & Hobson.

Tessars, f/6.3 are, IMO, preferable to early f/4.5s.

If you don't need absolute historical correctness, from 1904 until after WW-II an f/6.3 Tessar was an f/6.3 Tessar was an f/6.3 Tessar. I have several, even use them. They don't have a vintage look. Same goes for Protars, Unos, and Cooke triplets. Cant address Unars 'cos I've never used one but I expect they too have the modern look.

If you want a vintage look, the best way to get it is with careful exposure and processing in taking and printing.

Re shutters, Compounds are pneumatic and if not jes' fine can usually be made jes' fine.

Kent, you've been asking all sorts of questions about lenses. You need a book on lenses. Get yourself a copy of A Lens Collector's Vade Mecum. It is incoherent, incomplete, inconsistent, often incorrect, sometimes infuriating, and the best thing of its kind. My lens book -- see http://www.galerie-photo.com/1-lens-6x9-dan-fromm.html , http://www.galerie-photo.com/2-lens-6x9-dan-fromm.html , and http://www.galerie-photo.com/3-lens-6x9-dan-fromm.html ; one long article in three sections -- is much shorter and much much less useful.

Mark Sawyer
27-Feb-2011, 17:27
If you want to collect historical stepping stones, I'd suggest a Petzval, (which you have), then a Rapid Rectilinear in a Prosche shutter (massive, impressive, and reliable with a 1/40th of a second shutter speed), then an uncoated Dagor or Tessar in a Volute shutter.

A modern multi-coated Plasmat in a Copal shutter would round it out to four giant steps in lens development. (Mind you, there were all sorts of wonderful baby-steps and side-trips along the way.)

Two23
28-Feb-2011, 06:52
Dan--

I've been reading up where I can, including Vade Mecum. There is a lot to learn! Information is often incomplete. As for vintage look, I am getting that from my 1937 Voigtlander Bessa, with triplet lens. Also have a 1914 Kodak Special No. 1 with Taylor, Taylor, Hobson Cooke triplett and Optimo shutter. The uncoated lenses and older lens formula do give a special soft look. I sort of got bored with the always sharp, always perfect look that my modern Nikon gear is giving. I'm after something different, and a different experience. I love the handmade look of "ancient" photo gear.

Mark--

You're pretty close to what I'm after. I'm not looking so much for lenses that were techno breakthroughs or rare examples. What I'm doing is asking myself, "I am an outdoor photographer. I usually shoot a Nikon DSLR & first class lenses. What would I be using if this was 1895? What was the 'hot' camera and lenses of that time period?"

goamules
28-Feb-2011, 07:31
..."I am an outdoor photographer. I usually shoot a Nikon DSLR & first class lenses. What would I be using if this was 1895? What was the 'hot' camera and lenses of that time period?"

I'd go for the first Anastigmats, by Zeiss (later called Protars) which they began making about 1891. Wide angles are the V and Vii I believe. I have an early b&L Series Viia that is very sharp and contrasty. It may not look "different from a modern lens", but it's what landscape photographers were using.

Two23
28-Feb-2011, 07:57
I'd go for the first Anastigmats, by Zeiss (later called Protars) which they began making about 1891. Wide angles are the V and Vii I believe. I have an early b&L Series Viia that is very sharp and contrasty. It may not look "different from a modern lens", but it's what landscape photographers were using.


Are these in a shutter? Probably a pneumatic? I should start looking. Those would have had the newer glass invented about then.



Kent in SD

goamules
28-Feb-2011, 08:02
The early one's I've seen are in barrel, but you can check. Yes, Zeiss invented the "new glass" which allowed the design!

carverlux
1-Mar-2011, 07:01
A couple of possible candidates that can produce the turn-of-the-century vintage look may be the Schneider Radionar and Zeiss Triotars that primarily came on a variety of pre-WWII folders. The longest Radionar barely covers 4x5 but Triotars came in focla lengths up to 21cm, and of course they would be in shutters.

The pre-WWII types were both inexpensive, uncoated triplets made to fit a price. Therefore, many of them have inherently less thorough optical optimizaton in design and assembled with widely varied precision. This combination of factors can lead to a much more "vintage" or just plain dreamy look than properly optimized modern lenses made to much tighter tolerances. If you are adventurous, vary the spacing between the front element and rear elements, you can even get more or less "vintage-ness", depending on the specific sample.

Have fun!
carver

Jim Jones
1-Mar-2011, 08:32
Rapid rectilinears were still in production in 1890-1910 for the photographers who couldn't afford the newest and best. Edward Weston was using one for some of his photography decades later. They are available in a wide range of focal lengths. Some may provide wide enough coverage for the OP's use. They are certainly compact enough.

GPS
1-Mar-2011, 10:11
...
Are pneumatic shutters asking for trouble?


Kent in SD

Yes they are. Everything from 1890-1900 that resembles the famous Unicum shutter is crappy working.

jp
1-Mar-2011, 11:02
A packard pneumatic shutter won't be trouble. It's pretty simple, so you can take it apart at will. Then use any lens including barrel lenses. A packard probably wouldn't fit behind a 3 5/8 lensboard though.

Two23
1-Mar-2011, 23:11
Yes they are. Everything from 1890-1900 that resembles the famous Unicum shutter is crappy working.

That's what I was afraid of. The technology just wasn't there yet. As they wear, they change speeds. Between that and my small lensboard not fitting the roller blind shutters very well, I might have to start thinking of early Derval shutters. If I do that, I might as well buy a Voigtlander Bergheil in dark green leather like I've been lusting after for the past half year, he he! Heliar lens--yum!


Kent in SD

GPS
2-Mar-2011, 00:30
That's what I was afraid of. The technology just wasn't there yet. As they wear, they change speeds.
...

Kent in SD

To be more precise, it was not the wear that made then unreliable and not precise in their timing. The whole construction was flawed. Later attempts to make them more usable were just on the border of one of the first manufacturing scams in photography. In that they have an interesting history...

Two23
3-Mar-2011, 08:22
The more I read, the more I learn. The more I learn, the more I'm better to define what it is I want to do and what I need to do it. Looking at the images Eddy got with the Imagon he's selling, I'm thinking that is the look I'm after. Instead of using it just for portraits, I do "general photography," especially at night outdoors. The Imagon is all that old, but it does give a very unique look. And, with the disks there can be a lot of options. All Imagons are at least single coated, and for me coating is turning into something important. (More on that in another post.) Flash sync would be very nice, but not essential. I think I'd rather have a pre WW2 lens.

One thing that has me a bit stymied is that it seems to come in Copal 3. Not sure if that will fit on my Shen Hao lens board, but I can dig a bit more and find out. Second thing is I'm not sure if I want 200mm or 250mm. For me, generally wider is better, but I read that there is virtually no movement with a 200mm on 4x5. I'm also wondering about the shutter. Dang, I have expensive taste!


Kent in SD

jp
3-Mar-2011, 10:40
Copal3 will fit most 4x5 cameras. Looks a little oversized, but it works. My speedgraphic has a smaller board than your Shen-Hao probably does and I put a copal3s on it which is quite similar in size. Copal 3/3s will also provide flash sync.

You want to figure out how far your bellows go out before deciding on a 200 or 250. The bellows will extend further than the focal length of the lens for close up uses.