Is Pre-Soak Needed with Small tanks?

[Bob Kerner]

I'm about to develop my first sheets of Tri-X in a CombiPlan tank. I've read the Kodak information sheet on the film and the only reference to pre-wetting the film is for sheets in trays. Admittedly most of the document appears to be written for roll film.

Should I (or must I) pre-wet the film before adding the chemicals into the CombiPlan?

Incidentally, another set of instructions (for the tank) suggest adding the film into the tank with the developer already in the tank, which would seem to negate the pre-soak step.

Thanks

[bobwysiwyg]

This is one of personal choice questions. I use a Combiplan and pre-wetting isn't ever 'required' for any development that I know. I do how ever do it whether it's 35mm in small tanks or 4x5 in the Combi. Helps get rid of the dye and works for me. ;) Others will surely disagree, but that's OK.

[jp]

It's probably not necessary, but I do it. It helps get everything the right temperature, and I like to see the pretty colors come out afterwards.

[Drew Wiley]

I always presoak all types of film, all methods of development. I believe it helps keep
the temp more accurate in a tank or drum by preheating it internally with the correct
water temp, and with all methods, allows the dev to spread more evenly and quickly.

[Lynn Jones]

I personally regard it as a matter of personal preference although a couple of European film makers strongly recommend it.

When I always pre-soak, it is because I'm using film drums and the reason is that I fill drums with film inside all the way up in order to temperature control the film, reels, and drums, after 3 or 4 minutes, I dump the water and add the deeloper.

Lynn

[Greg Y]

I always pre-soak both roll & sheet film (tanks & trays) since I started to process in PMK more than 15 years ago. I now use Pyrocat HD and still presoak.:)

[Leigh]

I always pre-soak, both roll and sheet films.

It expands the emulsion and stabilizes the film temperature.

Just personal preference. Been doing it that way over 50 years with no problems.

- Leigh

[John Berry]

I have never had a problem with an errant air bubble since starting with a presoak. In addition to all the other positive attributes mentioned.

[Scotty230358]

I use tanning and staining developers (Pyrocat HD and Prescysol). In both cases a pre soak is recommended to promote even development. However when using Rodinal at 1:50 when I develop Adox CHS 100 I do not presoak.

Having read Ilford's data sheets for HP5+ I know that they say that you should not pre soak as, according to them, it can cause uneven development.

The only times I have had uneven development using my current methods is when I have been less than careful with agitation.

[Bob Kerner]

Ok. Seems like a pre soak could be helpful. Since it's not mentioned in the data sheets, I'll ask: how long should I pre soak for? 5 minutes?

[tgtaylor]

I use to always pre-soak B&W film for 2 to 5 minutes. Then one day I decided to develop 10 sheets in a Jobo 3010 expert drum with a CPA2 for the first time. Got everything set-up-developer, stop (water) fix, wash, timer set, temperature spot on, film and drum warmed up to processing temperature...and with the left hand on the GreyLabs switch and the developer poised in the right, I flipped the switch while simultaneously pouring the developer into the rotating drum and....HEART ATTACK - I forgot to pre-soak the film!

Fearing the worst from this stupid mistake I was surprised to find that the negatives came out perfectly developed - you couldn't ask for a better developing job pre-soaked or not. So now I never pre-soak when rotary processing and usually omit it when processing by hand inversion.

I have a suspicion that pre-soaking changes the development time.

Thomas

[al olson]

I use tanning and staining developers (Pyrocat HD and Prescysol). In both cases a pre soak is recommended to promote even development. However when using Rodinal at 1:50 when I develop Adox CHS 100 I do not presoak.

Having read Ilford's data sheets for HP5+ I know that they say that you should not pre soak as, according to them, it can cause uneven development.

The only times I have had uneven development using my current methods is when I have been less than careful with agitation.

I have read (elsewhere in this forum) that the reasons Ilford recommends no presoak is that
(1) the presoak water enters the emulsion and swells it, thus impeding the developer from entering the emulsion.
(2) the emulsion contains activators (??) intended to combine with the developer and the prewash will dilute and wash some of these away.

Perhaps others can recall and confirm these statements.

[Drew Wiley]

I always presoak Ilford films too, including HP5, FP4, and Pan F, whether drum or tray,
conventional or pyro developers. Never a problem. I standardize on a 2 min presoak,
which is enough to be even and keep the sheets from sticking together once in the
developer, but apparently not enough to have any adverse effects.

[PViapiano]

I presoak everything, sheetfilm, roll film, 35mm, lith film, laundry...

[Thebes]

I no longer presoak Ilford roll films after having some speed problems with delta 3200 that when away when I stopped presoaking.

For sheet film I am souping in open trays and I still presoak that.

[ki6mf]

Never pre-soak and use a diluted D 76 developer, 33% developer 67% water, with 14 minutes as a normal development time. Only problems was when I made a mistake like pouring my fixer in first! It happens! Diluted developer and longer development times get even development and is an alternative to pre soak. You still end up spending similar amounts of time processing if using soaking then processing with a less diluted developer.

[John Berry]

Ok. Seems like a pre soak could be helpful. Since it's not mentioned in the data sheets, I'll ask: how long should I pre soak for? 5 minutes?I presoak for 5 minutes, but have often wondered how long it actually takes to reach equilibrium. No point in 5 minutes when less will due. Although I don't think I would do less than three.

[jp]

How long it takes something to reach a temperature equilibrium by heat transfer is a calculation requiring upper level calculus and some physics as there are lots of changing variables going on. We used matlab for this in college.

I presoak for 60-90 seconds and have no evidence to disprove that it's adequate. No math behind this practice.

[photobymike]

I presoak everything, sheetfilm, roll film, 35mm, lith film, laundry...

I always pre soak film; bubbles, stabilize temp, and to remove the anti-halation backing. I pre soak for 5 minutes with distilled water; small tank, jobo, and dip and dunk, color B&W IR ect.. ect.. does not seen to hurt and i have never had an "uneven develop problem".

http://www.mikepic.com

[Ari]

Pre-soak only 1 minute; beyond that, you're keeping your film wet for an unnecessary length of time.
For that same reason, I use a water stop-bath for only 1 minute as well.

[Bob Kerner]

I skipped the pre-soak on my first batch. No amount of pre-soaking would have fixed whatever I fouled up in the process.

[JohnN]

Standard 2 minute soak to bring roll tank up (or down) to temperature.

Take two rolls of the same film. Do a presoak with one; the other, no presoak. Print. See what the difference is.

[Brian Ellis]

I haven't read the rest of the thread, I assume there's the usual arguments about the benefits if any of presoaking. FWIW, I stopped pre-soaking anything - roll film, 4x5, 8x10, nothing - about 15 years ago and never saw any difference or had any problems compared to the days when I presoaked everything. I did briefly presoak when I was starting out with pyro because Gordon Hutchings book said to presoak. But after a while I decided to see what would happen if I didn't presoak so I tried it and nothing happened, everything looked just the same even with pyro. So I went back to no presoaking. As far as I'm concerned presoaking just adds an unnecessary 2-5 minutes of standing around in the darkroom. But I know some people swear by it.