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View Full Version : Doppel-Anastigmats: which one you value and why?



renes
24-Feb-2011, 04:30
There are lots of Doppel-Anastigmat lenses, most probbaly from German production, but other famous makers made them too. Which Doppel-Anastigmat you like most, find most interesting and why?

Do you think Dagor takes the prize?

IanG
24-Feb-2011, 06:04
The original, the Dagor. Why settle for an imitation ?

My own entirely biased preference based on the experience of just one lens :D is the US made Goerz Am. Opt, Dagors are excellent, assuming you have a good one.

I'm lucky to own a coated late 1930's 12" (300mm) f6.8 Dagor - factory coated after WWII, the second owner a photography Professor told me it was a useless lens, he'd actually never used it - even once, and it had separation. Once the edge grime was cleaned away it was excellent for it's age & no separation, negatives/prints made with it are superb.

So for me a Dagor.

Ian

Dan Fromm
24-Feb-2011, 06:20
What, Ian, no Protars? No dialytes of any type? No double Gauss types? No plasmat types? Re these last two, I have in hand a convertible 95/2.8 Saphir (double Gauss) and a couple of convertible plasmat types. The first plasmat type Symmar isn't the only plasmat sold as convertible.

Piotr, what are you about to try to sell now? I hope none of the really crappy Goerz convertible dialytes.

IanG
24-Feb-2011, 06:33
What, Ian, no Protars? No dialytes of any type? No double Gauss types? No plasmat types? Re these last two, I have in hand a convertible 95/2.8 Saphir (double Gauss) and a couple of convertible plasmat types. The first plasmat type Symmar isn't the only plasmat sold as convertible.


Dan, I have Dialytes, Protars etc but going from a user point of view I find my Dagor very usable, resulting exhibition prints are on a par with my modern German lenses.

From a collector's point of view then if I had more experience perhaps I'd think differently. I leave that expertise to you :)

Ian

renes
24-Feb-2011, 07:50
Piotr, what are you about to try to sell now? I hope none of the really crappy Goerz convertible dialytes.

Not any Doppel-Anastigmat now. Rather a few Heliars soon :)

I want to know what someone likes own Doppel-Anastigmat lens for, why prefers Dagor to Collinear, or Hugo Meyer to Suter and vice versa, etc... and what difference he/she see in image renderings between two or more such lenses... and did Dagor's copies provided with significant value and quality...

Ok, I am going also to buy a few for my needs and would like to see if any "Dagor" copy could compete with the original :)

E. von Hoegh
24-Feb-2011, 08:14
(snip)

Ok, I am going also to buy a few for my needs and would like to see if any "Dagor" copy could compete with the original :)

The first Symmar, a non convertible Dagor type, is every bit a Dagor . I had a 300mm Symmar and a 30cm Goerz Berlin Dagor; the Symmar was a wee bit sharper between f6.8 and f11, otherwise they were indistinguishable. Traded the Symmar, kept the Dagor.

Plasmats are nice, and I hope to get a Collinear and a Doppel-Amatar to play with some day.

Dan Fromm
24-Feb-2011, 09:00
Ian, I'm very happy with my 210/7.7 Beryl-S. Not quite as sharp at apertures larger than f/16 as my 210/9 Konica Hexanon GR-II, but less flary and generally easier to use. Smaller and lighter than 210/5.6 Plasmats, as is my 210/6.8 Beryl that shoots as well as the f/7.7. Not sure why I use the f/7.7 instead of the f/6.8. I have no Protars, once tried out a 62/18 and found it usable but very hard to use.

Piotr, I'm sure that if Suzanne Levy-Bloch were alive she'd dispute it, but the Beryls (also sold badged Emeraude) she designed for Boyer have prescriptions that are extremely close to ones in Goerz patents. Mine have all been relatively inexpensive, they're still good values. From a user's perspective, their weakness is that many are offered in barrel and not all of them have cells that are direct fits in standard shutters. My Beryl-S, for example.

Further along those lines, I'd expect Berthiot (early with suffix "-Lacour", late with prefix "SOM ") Perigraphe Serie VIbs to be much like Dagors. At any rate, there doesn't seem to be much difference in performance -- but first trials, to be redone because of uncooperative target -- between my 135/6.8 Beryl and my 135/6.8 Perigraphe. f/14 Perigraphe Serie VIa are also Dagor types with a bit more claimed coverage than f/8 and f/9 Dagors. And f/6 or thereabouts Eurygraphes are convertible Dagors. Buy 'em and try 'em.

If you want slow with limited coverage, there are the Dagor type G-Clarons.

EvH, thanks for reminding us of the Doppel-Amatar. When Ole Tjugen chimes in he'll tell us that he's very partial to them.

John Kasaian
24-Feb-2011, 09:14
There are lots of Doppel-Anastigmat lenses, most probbaly from German production, but other famous makers made them too. Which Doppel-Anastigmat you like most, find most interesting and why?

Do you think Dagor takes the prize?

There are Doppel-Anastigmats that have less than ideal reputations, IIRC they were poorly built from parts left over after the war, but I don't recollect exactly how they were marked.

I am convinced that I can produce monumentally lousy photographs with the finest, most expensive lenses on earth, which leads me to think that it is the photographer, not the lens that "takes the prize";)

Paul Bujak
24-Feb-2011, 11:18
Well said, John. As a member of the vast community of lousy photographers, I have yet to find a lens which will correct all my faults or any of them, actually.

reyno bundit
24-Feb-2011, 11:40
im making a van dyke print from a dopple at the moment, its a munchen rodenstock, lovely lens

Dan Fromm
24-Feb-2011, 11:58
There are Doppel-Anastigmats that have less than ideal reputations, IIRC they were poorly built from parts left over after the war, but I don't recollect exactly how they were marked.
John, they're not all dagor types. As I said, double anastigmats include Protars, Dagors and similar, double Gauss types, Protars, Dialytes, and no doubt others.

I've had a really terrible Goerz dialyte type Doppel-Anastigmat. f/6.8, but a dialyte, not a dagor.

If all you know about a lens is that it is a double anastigmat you don't know enough to have any expectations about how it will perform for you.

renes
24-Feb-2011, 12:53
im making a van dyke print from a dopple at the moment, its a munchen rodenstock, lovely lens

Eurynar?



Piotr, I'm sure that if Suzanne Levy-Bloch were alive she'd dispute it, but the Beryls (also sold badged Emeraude) she designed for Boyer have prescriptions that are extremely close to ones in Goerz patents. Mine have all been relatively inexpensive, they're still good values. From a user's perspective, their weakness is that many are offered in barrel and not all of them have cells that are direct fits in standard shutters. My Beryl-S, for example.

Never seen Boyer Beryl but will look around.

Ash
24-Feb-2011, 13:17
The only one I own, a Goerz Doppel-Anastigmat Serie III 180/6.8... Mainly because the results always impress me.

Jan Pedersen
24-Feb-2011, 21:32
I have a soft spot for Dagors. Don't have any older Double Anastigmats but have 5 coated Goerz Dagors, some with some gold and some without. The 300 6.8 Gold Ring is my favorite on 8x10
They all give me consistent good negatives with perfect contrast.
I don't like modern plasmat lenses, they are rough and unpolished in the way they capture a scene, a little bit like comparing a good and well recorded piece of Vinyl played on a high end turntable compared to a CD player.

Jim Galli
24-Feb-2011, 21:57
I also like Dagor's but the Doppel Anastigmat title was a stretch. That assumes that any single group can be used to make pictures. Dagor's suck as a single anastigmat.

I like Protar VII's. I like Turner Reich's. I LOVE Cooke's. I like the original Wollensak Series 1, not the 1a Protar copy, but the old f6.8 Series 1 (http://tonopahpictures.0catch.com/Conley/1114Conley.html). I believe (but could be wrong since we have no record) that the designer at Cooke may have used the Wolly as his inspiration. The Wolly was 1903 - ish and the Cooke 1931. If I had $$$ I'd love to send my 13" Wolly in and have it disassembled and coated, then do a shoot out with the Cooke which is coated.

I do not like the dialyt's much like the D.A. Eurynar or whatever the Rodenstoch dialyt was.

patrickjames
25-Feb-2011, 02:24
I had a Dagor, but I never used it so I sold it.

I have a Rodenstock Eurynar 150 that is a nice and bright f/3.5. It is sharp, a little lower in contrast because of all the air/glass surfaces but it is a really nice lens. It also makes a reasonable 270ish converted. If I could get it coated it would be the only 150 I would use but I haven't found anyone to do it in an economically feasible manner. I think Ole has one that is coated.

I also have a 300 APO Ronar which is a dialyte (isn't it?). I am a fan of the dialyte I guess. I used to have a 24" APO Artar that I sold with my 8x10 a long time ago. That was a big mistake. Wonderful lens.

IanG
25-Feb-2011, 05:19
Patrick I was planning to get my 135mm f3.5 Eurynar coated a couple of years or so ago, there's a company in Australia/Tasmania who were very reasonably priced. I didn't go ahead because the lens/shutter was far to large to fit my second 9x12 Patent Etui.

The thread & details are here. (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum44/54138-coating-lenses.html)

Ian

Ash
25-Feb-2011, 09:27
Ian, that looks like an amazing company, if my Dagor could be fully disassembled (and I actually needed it coated) I'd definitely think about it. Since it's such a slow lens that I use hooded with b&w film anyway, it's not worth it for the travel.

Ole Tjugen
25-Feb-2011, 09:41
My personal favourite is the Doppel-Amatar - something about its rendition just "sits right" with me.

I have Dagors, Amatars, Dialytes, Plasmats, Protars (among these the Amatar), Collinear, et cetera.
Yes, and two old Eurynar 150/4.5 - one coated, one both uncoated and chipped.
Dagors? I never really understood the attraction of these, give me a "reverse Dagor" any day! Amatar, Angulon, any other reverse Dagor even my oddball Leitmeyr Weitwinkel-Anastigmat.

aduncanson
25-Feb-2011, 10:19
If all you know about a lens is that it is a double anastigmat you don't know enough to have any expectations about how it will perform for you.

Unless, of course, you are a cheat selling on ebay. In which case "Doppel Anastigmat" is sufficient to justify any exorbitant price.

While I love my 6" Gold Dot Dagor, (on 5x7), rather than many Doppel Anastigmats, I would prefer a "Doppel" that is Belgian.

renes
8-Mar-2011, 02:51
Does someone know if Hugo Meyer Doppel-Anastigmat is a copy or reverse Dagor?
Any experiences with Meyer Doppel-Anastigmat? Have found one with f/5.4 but they made also f/6.8.

renes
9-Mar-2011, 03:30
I just compared drawings design in old brochures and it looks Meyer double-anastigmat is a Dagor copy, quite exact.