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PViapiano
22-Feb-2011, 16:20
After reading both Jim and Vaughn's guides for carbon printing, I had a few questions.

I know that Jim & Vaughn both live in moderately cool climates with decent humidity, but I'm guessing that Tri lives more inland where it can be a lot hotter and dryer (especially in summer!).

Are there any caveats for making tissue in a hotter environment? Getting the temp down to 65-68 F would be expensive in the summer, if not close to impossible. Is making tissue even doable in the summer?

Now, Jim...don't say move to the beach!

One more thing...after you expose and are transferring the image to the support under safelight, how long must it remain under safelight or darkness?

That's all for now...thanks guys...I'm starting to get the urge to try this in the next few months.

Vaughn
22-Feb-2011, 16:54
Cooler temps are easier for the process, and some do make it a seasonal process...or work in the evenings/early mornings when it is cooler. I was born and raised in Alhambra, so I know that cool evenings are non-existent in the late summer/early fall!

So for those times, the early morning hours when it does cool down might be the time to pour tissues -- and they keep for several months so you can make and save some for the hotter times of the year. Some folks even sensitize and then freeze the tissues for later printing.

I use acetone for the carrier of the sensitizer, so it is self-cooling as the acetone evaporates. The transfer bath needs to be cool (60 to 65F seems best), but that can easily be done with ice.

The tissue needs to be kept in low light once senstitized -- even a 40W regular light bulb is fine -- just avoid UV emitters. I use 60W bug lights (the yellow bulbs). Once transferred, just lay a piece of cardboard over it for the 30 minutes it needs to mate.

Once you start developing and have removed the tissue support, there is not much to worry about in the terms of fogging.

I live in the far NW of CA, so perhaps Tri has some better hot weather tips. Around here, if it gets to 75F, people start complaining about the heat!

vaughn

Jan Pietrzak
22-Feb-2011, 17:46
Hi PV and Vaughn,

As most of you know I am not a carbon printer, BUT when working with any of the (I hate this term, alt processes) it is a marriage of location and process. I lived in SoCal/LA for a long time. I then moved to New Mexico, yes did I have to adapted my working to NM, yes. But it does not take long to do it. In the early day of working we had a saying 'what works for me in my studio/darkroom may not/will not work for you in your studio/darkroom. That said just keep working and make lots of notes. It will all work out for you. PV I am sorry that I did not have a chance to meet you in So/Cal. Vaughn say hi to Don Anton for me when you see him.

Good luck and keep working/changing till you get it.

Jan Pietrzak

Vaughn
22-Feb-2011, 18:05
Yes, and this is what makes traveling to give carbon workshops a bit of a challenge -- one needs to try to universalize the process to fit the climate, facilities and light sources of the place you are giving the workshop. The ones in Newport, Oregon I have given are close enough like home, but the East SF Bay Area and Yosemite Valley have been a bigger challenge!

Jim Fitzgerald
22-Feb-2011, 18:17
Paul, I can echo Vaughn's comments. It can get hot at the beach. Hell, it was 103 degrees for one day last summer! You have to adjust your working times to the environmental conditions for carbon. Vaughn and I live in cool climates and it has its advantages and some disadvantages also. Yes i can pour tissue just about any time which is nice but when the humidity is high it can cause problems. I use 40 watt yellow bug lights that I got from the $.99 store. I have one on in the darkroom and one on in my development room. It is like working in daylight. Once I peel my tissue in development and get development almost done I can turn on the light to check the image. Just let me know when you have some time and I can come by and show you how to do it. You are not that far from me. Or if you want come on over here.

Also, almost forgot..... you can always move to the beach!!

Tri Tran
22-Feb-2011, 22:09
Hi Paul,
I'm a few miles away from the beach, with sometimes unpredictable weather pattern. Daytime can be hot but morning and night usually cool . The humidity around 60-70 in the morning and night but 30-40 daytime. I try to keep my humidity between 30-50 in my workshop. In the summer, I usually work at night to take advantage of the cooler temperature.
Night time or early morning is best to take advantage of the cooler temperature. When no one around so that i can focus to pour some nice tissue without distracting of family members.
Sometimes I work with the Yellow light or 60 watts incandescent light on about 10 ft during transferring. After that I let it mated as long as I wanted for at least 45min in the dark but not necessarily in complete darkness
The carbon process can be simple and straightforward as long as you keep it simple. It's all visual. It can be tricky and frustrating if you make it too complicated.
Hope this helps,

CP Goerz
22-Feb-2011, 23:51
Hey there,


I live in Hollywood and it can get pretty warm around here but have never had trouble making tissues in any temperature. The one advantage we have here is that drying the tissue takes no time at all.


Is your basic gelatine solution 10% or something less? If less it'll be more difficult.



Once the image is wet it loses almost all sensitivity to light, in addition you are pressing the gelatine onto the support so I wouldn't expect there to be any light able to penetrate through it all to cause fog. I used the double transfer method which sounds like its twice as much work but is actually a lot easier and has no chance of the dichromate staining the final support. There are a few other advantages too but ease and economy are the main two


In that process I use clear acrylic sheets as the temporary support and never had any fogging. Dichromate is only really sensitive when its dry, not when wet.

PViapiano
23-Feb-2011, 00:24
Great information, everyone...thank you so much!

One more...do you really need to work with a bug/safe light when sensitizing the tissue? I coat gum prints in normal room light, either 60 watt bulb or plain north window light (no sun), and the dichromate doesn't fog at all. Just curious...

Jim Fitzgerald
23-Feb-2011, 07:32
Paul, I've always used the light. This is the way I learned from Vaughn. I've never tried it but I would think that it would be no problem. The time it takes to coat especially if one uses acetone as the carrier is not that long. One of those things to test. Should be fine.

Tri Tran
23-Feb-2011, 08:11
Great information, everyone...thank you so much!

One more...do you really need to work with a bug/safe light when sensitizing the tissue? I coat gum prints in normal room light, either 60 watt bulb or plain north window light (no sun), and the dichromate doesn't fog at all. Just curious...

I sensitized ( Carbon) and coated my paper ( Platinum) under normal incadescent light without any fogging that I have noticed . There is not much of sensitivity to light when tissue itself first brushed or coated, also the tissue should be away from harsh light or UV A or B ( They do exist even there is no sun) radiation during drying stage. Jim & I both have a hard time to get tissue completely dried when humidity is high especially when it rain. That's it for now. The rest Jim and I will take care of it for you .

sanking
23-Feb-2011, 09:04
Carbon printing is quite sensitive to variations in temperature and humidity and for consistent results (say for printing editions) I strongly recommend climate control in your workspace, especially if you live in a place where these conditions are subject to a lot of change. I have had to contend with fairly dramatic climate conditions in doing workshops where there was no control of temperature and humidity in places like Montauck, NY, the mountains of North Carolina in the summer, Istabul, Turkey, the highlands of Xalapa, Mexico, and Michigan and Montana in the summer. You can adjust, but sometimes it is not pretty, and often by the time you adjust it is too late.

BTW, not sure if all of you have seen this article on carbon printing, but if not it might be of interest for some of the visuals. http://www.alternativephotography.com/wp/processes/carbon-carbro/the-carbon-transfer-process

Sandy King

Vaughn
23-Feb-2011, 09:08
I have had flouorescent lights fog a sensitized (dry) tissue, but it was exposed for quite a long time...maybe 20 to 30 minutes. The tissue was partly covered and I ended up with more hardened gelatin where the tissue was exposed to the room light...a definite line slightly raised higher than the unexposed portion. But even the fogged portion of the image looked okay -- not the fogged look one gets with silver gelatin photo paper.

I have always erred to the side of caution regarding possible light fogging. I do keep the room the tissue is hanging to dry (after sensitizing) dark -- it hangs for two hours in a small room. I have accidently left the 60W bug light on for part of the time, but I noticed no affect on the tissue. But I do try to keep it off as it would be just another uncontrolled variable in the process.

So 'fogged" tissue might still produce very good looking prints, but unless all of one's tissue is exposed to roughly the same amount of uv light throughout one's process, one might have some trouble getting consistent results -- a tissue exposed to more uv might make a print slightly darker than one with less uv exposure -- even though everything else was kept constant (including the time under the exposure unit).

The issues I have had with warm rooms is:

1) The freshly poured tissue takes a long time to set up -- slowing down the pouring process and an increased time that dust, etc can fall of the surface. I'll pour 10 to 30 tissues in a night, so the added time becomes very significant.

and 2) brush sensitizing w/ alcohol tended to start to melt the top layer of gelatin and I ended up moving some of the pigment around the surface of the tissue. The greater cooling due to the evaporation of the acetone helps.

So I think a cooler room will make learning the process a little easier, as it increases one's margin of error -- but as CP points out, it is possible to work in warmer conditions. One adapts the process to fit one's working conditions. And the ability to adapt increases as one gains experience.

PViapiano
23-Feb-2011, 09:54
Thanks for that, everyone...yes, I've coated pt/pd and gum in low incandescent room light and non-direct-sun window light, but have always dried the coated paper in a darkened room or cabinet...

(BTW, sorry for the category this was originally posted in. It should have been in On Photography...)

CP Goerz
23-Feb-2011, 17:29
'I coat gum prints in normal room light, either 60 watt bulb or plain north window light (no sun), and the dichromate doesn't fog at all. Just curious...'


Actually 'back in the day' carbon prints were contacted under north light skies, something to do with the wavelength of light to which dichromate is most sensitive but if you have no fog then not to worry.


Light fog can help with contrasty legs.

Vaughn
23-Feb-2011, 19:16
With many processes that create a printing-out image, such as cyanotypes, platinums, and even carbons to some extent, slow exposures times (low power light source) yield a smoother tonality than short exposures times with high intensity lamps. The creation of the printing out image lags behind the exposure a bit and the printing out image acts as a mask and proportionally slows down the exposures in the shadows and the midtones a little, allowing the highlights to come in without the shadows going too dark.

Andrew O'Neill
23-Feb-2011, 19:18
There was a two-week period here last summer, where the temperature in my darkroom went up to 26C. When spirit sensitizing, pigment in the tissue bled out a bit. It still printed okay, but I've decided to not sensitize tissue when it gets too warm.
And you can forget about pouring tissue! Took forever to set and I ended up with some really ugly tissue and prints. I do not have AC in my darkroom but I do have a de-humidifier, which makes the room feel more comfortable to be in on those warm days. I like a nice, cool room to work in. I love winter.
I've left freshly sensitized tissue hanging whilst my bug light was on for about an hour. The light is a couple of metres away. I've not noticed any problems. I rarely do that. The light is turned off and I leave the room to watch a hockey game or something....

Jim Fitzgerald
23-Feb-2011, 20:07
Sandy, thanks for the link. I still have this bookmarked. I tell all of my students to read everything you can BEFORE you jump in. Then you understand everything going in and generally you can get good results. Keep notes and reduce the variables as much as possible.

mdm
23-Feb-2011, 23:03
Actually 'back in the day' carbon prints were contacted under north light skies, something to do with the wavelength of light to which dichromate is most sensitive but if you have no fog then not to worry.

I have tried printing with North light, or in my case South light, and exposure times were very long.

I can second Andrews suggestion of a dehumidifier. Cant do without mine since the humidity is usually very high here. It makes drying sensitised tissue a breeze and helps to get consistent results. I always dry for 1.5 hrs at 40% RH at the same temperature, and believe that the tissue I expose is very consistent. Inconsistent results are entirely my fault.

If you want to test for fogging print some wedges on yupo, it is very unforgiving. I take no precautions except for drying tissue in dark a cupboard, but I probably should.

Sandys article at alternative photography is how I learnt, it is well thought out and should work in a wide variety of contitions. I am still bothering them at the Yahoo Carbon forum. The B&S forum is filled with useless stories about the NYPD and how old or tough or what a swinging _ick the poster is. Other than that I really enjoyed Nadeau's 'Modern Carbon Printing'. The doing is much more important than the reading. The most important thing you can read up on is the MSDS (and some googling for general info) for the Dichromate you will use.

Vaughn
24-Feb-2011, 02:25
David, you must be reading a different B&S Forum than I am. I find it informative and many of those who volunteer info here, also post on that forum. But we are lucky to have a wealth of knowledge in many sites, such as Sandy's, LF, APUG and yes, even the B&S Forum.

I bought a copy of Modern Carbon Printing long after working out the carbon process on my own. I found that I had spent a lot of time re-inventing the wheel that would have been avoided by reading Nadeau earlier.

Jim Fitzgerald
24-Feb-2011, 07:11
David, I agree with Vaughn. Knowledge is power and I think if one is going to really nail carbon printing then they have to give it their all. This is what I did and I still learn very much by reading the forums. Look at it as continuing education. Printing and reviewing your notes is the best way to learn.

Colin Graham
24-Feb-2011, 09:34
Marble slabs are great for pouring carbon tissues in hot weather. I prechill the slab with cold water before pouring and the tissues setup very quickly. Plus they are dead flat.

Easy to get some free marble countertop sink/cooktop knockouts from a local fabricator. They usually will give you more than you want.

Vaughn
24-Feb-2011, 09:42
Any problem with condensation on the cold surface?

I have done the opposite -- run the plate glass under hot water to warm it up.

It can be a fine balance sometimes between room temp and the temp of the glop...depending also on the pouring method.

Colin Graham
24-Feb-2011, 09:49
No. I use yupo for the substrate, and then a plastic desk blotter frame to contain the glop, so the tissue has a good barrier against unwanted moisture, but I never have noticed any condensation. I say 'prechill', but the tap water is around 70 degrees in the summer, so cool might be a better term.

It only needs to stay on the slab for 15 minutes or so, and I pour pretty heavy, around 2mm. It might need a longer set up period in a truly hot environment, I've only worked to 85 degrees or so. No A/C here.

But I'm curious, why do you heat up the pour table in hot weather?

Vaughn
24-Feb-2011, 10:55
No -- it was in cold weather...I just mentioned it as an example of tempering the pouring surface to meet the needs of the time/situation.

During one of the workshops I gave in Yosemite Valley, I opened the doors to cool the room down...I did not realize that it was in the low 40'sF (dry cold seems so much more warmer/comfortable than our damp cold of the Pacific NW!) The first pour did not go well -- could not get the glop to spread over the whole tissue support before setting up.

Instead of heating the glop up, I heated the glass up. It is kinda of nice running into such "problems" during a workshop -- a little problem solving is a good learning/teaching opportunity!

Yes, I can see where there would not be a condensation problem in your case -- I was thinking much colder in a humid climate.

CP Goerz
24-Feb-2011, 11:02
Try a sheet of thick glass made level with a blob of modeling clay at each corner.

Colin Graham
24-Feb-2011, 11:21
Glass is great for small sizes, but it can sag under its own weight unless you start using really thick glass for large sizes like 22"x26", and the combination of fragility and weight makes me nervous.

Another thing I like about marble is the mass deadens vibration so I can turn the music up very loud and don't have little Sonic Youth impressions in the finished tissues, hehe.

PViapiano
24-Feb-2011, 11:46
Making glop today...!

PViapiano
24-Feb-2011, 11:55
I like the marble slab idea...

Also, glad to hear about working in 85 degrees, Colin. My place is usually 78-80 degrees with AC in summer.

PViapiano
24-Feb-2011, 16:31
Pouring tissue now...approx 9x11 size.

First pour was not that smooth, but second pour is as smooth as glass.

On the first tissue there are a few tiny, tiny bubbles...like 4 or 5. What will that do? Isn't that the side that will be face down on the final support? I'll probably scrape and remelt that first one anyway...

Oh, I used Sennelier Ivory Black for this batch...

mdm
24-Feb-2011, 16:57
Pouring tissue now...approx 9x11 size.

First pour was not that smooth, but second pour is as smooth as glass.

On the first tissue there are a few tiny, tiny bubbles...like 4 or 5. What will that do? Isn't that the side that will be face down on the final support? I'll probably scrape and remelt that first one anyway...

Oh, I used Sennelier Ivory Black for this batch...

I would just use it anyway. You will probably waste some tissue getting your exposure right and getting used to the technique. I wasted tissue for a long time before I managed to get a good transfer. I still waste a lot. I used to sort my tissue into good and bad groups, and use the bad to experiment with. Now using a heated pipe, none of it is really bad.

You have to be prepared to practice the technique until you start getting it right, then you focus on printing the negative as well as possible, slowly it gets so you have enough control that you can focus on how you want to make the print, however that might be, because there are lots of options. I am just getting there myself. You dont have to make a print that looks like anyone elses, make em the the way you want. Thats the beauty of this process.

Dont be in a rush to use your tissue, make shure it is properly dry before you use it. Wet tissue = BIG headache.

Good luck.

PViapiano
24-Feb-2011, 17:12
Thanks, David...

The third pour (I made a small 500ml batch) was good as well, but the fourth one which was the remaining glop had pigment that was settled, so it was streaked. I scraped it up along with the first one and put it back in a hot water bath for pouring later tonight after work.

The other two are pinned to cardboard with a fan gently blowing on them.

I used Jim's measure of 125ml for a 9x11 tissue.

CP Goerz
24-Feb-2011, 17:16
A few tips for air bubbles...


First, heat the pigment gelatine mixture in the microwave till really hot, let it cool for a while then reheat, do this about four times. This drives the air out of the solution.

Second, when you pour use a gravy separator...air bubbles/dust etc tend to rise so you are actually pouring from the bottom.


Once you pour the solution on the paper are you then smoothing it with a bar or just letting it sit? If you let it sit air in the paper could bleed up unless its been properly soaked in slightly warm water and then squeegeed on the poring surface(be sure to mop up any extra drops of water with a soft cloth). If you run a metal pipe with some wire wrapped around the ends to give it the right height over the paper+gelatine mixture what'll happen is that as you push the gelatine the bubbles seem to adhere to the bar. This can only be performed once or twice as the gelatine is setting and if it gets too cold you'll ruffle the surface.



I use 1/4" thick tempered glass so I don't have any issues with bending glass etc.



If you still have bubbles after pouring the sheet and its 'set' no biggie, just pop the bubbles with a pencil point then dab a little of the re-warmed gelatine solution into the hole.



I wouldn't be too quick to use a fan as that'll blow dust and lint onto the surface and the photo gods deem that any imperfection will land in the sky or on the face of the person deemed most important. Pin the sheets to some double thick cardboard with push pins. The advantage of this is that the cardboard itself will draw moisture from the paper and make it dry quicker.

Jim Graves
25-Feb-2011, 00:12
PV ... I live in Sacramento, CA ... considerably warmer than Pasadena in the summer. I make my glop at night, leave it in the 105 degree water bath overnight (helps eliminate bubbles) and pour in the early morning ... that solves the temperature problem.

For UV protection during sensitizing and development, I use Amberlith over the windows. It is similar to Rubylith ... both are UV opaque but let in quite a lot of ambient light. If you are unable to find some, let me know ... I have a large supply from a defunct print shop and would be happy to send you some. During development, I stop worrying about light exposure once I start seeing the image appear ... I figure by then most all of the unexposed dichromate is either washed out or so diluted that it won't be affected.

As for carbon forums ... I have NO idea what David is talking about ... I find the B&S forum (at this link: Link (http://bostick-sullivan.invisionzone.com/index.php?/forum/68-carbon/)) to be the most informative and active. Sandy's on Yahoo is pretty good but fewer experts check in regularly and the interface is not very user friendly [Link (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarbronTransfer/messages/1673?tidx=1)]. APUG has some activity in the "Alternative Processes" thread but it is pretty spotty [Link (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum42/)].

PViapiano
25-Feb-2011, 00:16
Thanks for the tips, CP & Jim...much appreciated.

Vaughn
25-Feb-2011, 00:40
Hey Jim, if you do have a large supply of amberlith/rubylith sheets I could use a couple for use with my NuArc. But only if you have plenty -- I can track down other sources somewhere.

Vaughn

Jim Graves
25-Feb-2011, 12:29
Vaughn ... pm'd you.

sanking
25-Feb-2011, 16:02
Sandy's on Yahoo is pretty good but fewer experts check in regularly and the interface is not very user friendly [Link (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/CarbronTransfer/messages/1673?tidx=1)].

Jim,

I had been using different Yahoo discussions groups (QTR, Epson wide format printers, high end scanners, dye transfer) for many years before I started the carbon transfer on Yahoo, and the last thing I would say about these forums is that the interface is not very user friendly. In fact, I think the interface is actually superior in several ways to other sites, primarily in the easily accessed repositories for files, data, galleries, etc. which are open to all registered users. However, in order to access many of the features of the forum one must be registered and logged on. I was not aware that you were a member of the Yahoo carbon forum, certainly don't remember any question or response you have made there.

Sandy

mdm
25-Feb-2011, 16:56
No point in arguing. It wont encourage any new printers. Get your information wherever you want. This is not a competition. The important thing is that information and knowledge is shared freely, without being clouded by commercial interest or self agrandisement.

Jim Graves
25-Feb-2011, 17:07
No point in arguing. It wont encourage any new printers. Get your information wherever you want. This is not a competition.

Absolutely ... that's why I posted links to all three sites ... check them all out ... they all have something to offer.

sanking
25-Feb-2011, 18:22
No point in arguing. It wont encourage any new printers. Get your information wherever you want. This is not a competition. The important thing is that information and knowledge is shared freely, without being clouded by commercial interest or self agrandisement.

Who is arguing and why do you imply there is some kind of competition? I merely stated that in my experience there is nothing unfriendly about the user interface on the Yahoo forums. But like most things in life some experience in actual use is required to get the most out of any forum. People are 100% free to get their information from wherever they choose and I have not suggested or implied otherwise, nor have I offered any criticism of other forums.

Sandy