Sheets processing question

[Professional]

Hi all again,

I would like to ask, what the tool i need to develop LF sheets [4x5 or even 8x10]? Is there any new still available equipment used for developing large format films or all are discontinued? I thought the lab will charge me same as 35/120 B&W processing but i shocked when they said they charge a bit more, so for me it will not be any saving to use the lab for all LF films, i will use the lab for color films only [as i am not planning to do color myself], any help please?

[Vaughn]

Trays in a dark room work fine for B&W. Nice way to learn as one can develop one at a time and play around with development time.

Jobo Expert Tanks (3005 for 8x10) are great, but since they are no longer made, are getting expensive on the used market.

Stainless steel hangers in tanks is another way...uses a lot of chemicals -- especially big tanks for 8x10 (sometimes a couple gallons/8 liters).

These are the ways I have done it -- there are a couple other ways, but I'll let others chime in on those.

Vaughn

[Gem Singer]

All you need are three 8x10 trays.

Use water in the middle tray for pre-soak, stop bath, final wash, and wetting agent.

There are several daylight tanks for 4x5, but you will need an expensive Jobo expert drum (or similar) for daylight 8x10 development.

[William McEwen]

Easiest thing in the world.

Use 8x10 trays to process 4x5 negs.
Use 11x14 (mine are actually 12x16) to process 8x10.

Trays, left to right:
Water bath
Developer
Acetic acid
Fix
After fixing, use hypo clear, then wash for about 30 minutes in an upright "print" washer, then hypo clear each sheet individually for about 30 seconds each. Then hang up on clothespins on a wire overnight to dry.

[Professional]

I heard about a tank that can be used [daylight], I think it is HP Combi-Plan, don't know if this is a good one to try it.
I think i will go with trays method, will buy trays and see, but can i use same procedures/steps of what i do to process 120 format films [Pre-soak, Developer, Stop Bath, Fixer, Wetting Agent]??? or it is a bit different with sheets?

[Filmnut]

I've never used the Combi tank, but I think some people do. I personally have tried two different types of tanks (though they seemed to be almost copies of each other), and they didn't allow for sufficient agitation, so I ended up with mottle due uneven development. So, I always do sheet film in trays, and the biggest issue I have is scratches on the emulsion, especially if you are using Foma or Efke, or such.
Nice enough film, but it seems to be softer when wet, than Kodak, Fuji, or Ilford.
If you only do one sheet per tray, its' not so much of an issue, but if you have lots to process, it gets quite time consuming. I process up to 5-6 4X5 sheets per 5X7 tray, and lift each sheet up going through from top to bottom. I DON'T slide a sheet from the bottom, and put it on top, as I found that this gives me more scratches! I usually use an 11X14 tray, filled with tempered water, with two 5X7 trays inside. This gives me more processing capacity, so that I can use both hands to shuffle film.
I prefer 5X7 trays so that the film doesn't scoot around as much, but you have to make sure that enough chem to properly process the film.
Keith

[Professional]

OK, i have to read more about processing with trays.

Thanks!

[Brian C. Miller]

The Jobo 4x5 reels and tanks can still be purchased, and I've seen a 3006 expert drum for sale new. Yes, stocks are really drying up, and there never was a huge market for the drums in the first place.

You might look at purchasing or making a "slosher." (Photographer's Formulary, slosher (http://stores.photoformulary.com/-strse-241/SHEET-FILM-DEVELOPING-TRAY/Detail.bok)) You can make one yourself.

There's the Beyond The Zone System (link (http://btzs.org/)) (BTSZ) tubes (http://www.viewcamerastore.com/product_info.php?products_id=36). You can make these yourself, or buy a kit. They are available for 4x5 and 8x10 sizes. You'll still need a darkroom, or at least a changing bag, for loading the film.

[Brian Ellis]

Trays are an inexpensive way to do it. However, you have to stand over the trays in complete darkness shuffling the film and inhaling chemical fumes, which was never my thing. And when I used trays I occasionally ended up scratching a sheet of film every now and then. A better system IMHO is one that allows you to do everything in room light after the film is loaded, that avoids most chemical fumes, and that is pretty much scratch-proof. Such systems include BTZS tubes and Jobo. Maybe tanks too, I've never used tanks.

[Professional]

The Jobo 4x5 reels and tanks can still be purchased, and I've seen a 3006 expert drum for sale new. Yes, stocks are really drying up, and there never was a huge market for the drums in the first place.

You might look at purchasing or making a "slosher." (Photographer's Formulary, slosher (http://stores.photoformulary.com/-strse-241/SHEET-FILM-DEVELOPING-TRAY/Detail.bok)) You can make one yourself.

There's the Beyond The Zone System (link (http://btzs.org/)) (BTSZ) tubes (http://www.viewcamerastore.com/product_info.php?products_id=36). You can make these yourself, or buy a kit. They are available for 4x5 and 8x10 sizes. You'll still need a darkroom, or at least a changing bag, for loading the film.

OK, more options or choices now and more confusion.

Thanks

[Brian C. Miller]

Sloshers are just a film holder for a tray.

The BTZS tubes are just tubes. The film is inserted into the tube, the developer is placed in the cap. Then the tube is inserted into the cap, and when it's rolled horizontally, the developer runs over the film. I haven't used them myself, only trays, tanks, and Jobo.

[Professional]

So if i got trays, what are the quantities or capacities for each chemicals to use with 4x5 sheet?

[Robert Hughes]

When I process a few 4x5 sheets, I typically draw about a pint of each chemical (developer and fix) for my 8x10 trays, and wash with an indeterminate amount of water in a slightly larger tray. After fixing, I rinse the sheets with several changes of water (you can also use hypo clearing agent to speed up the process) and let the sheets soak for about 15 minutes before hanging them up to dry.

Of course, since you're in a desert land the water may be pretty hard - you may need to do a final rinse with distilled water to avoid staining your negatives. OTOH it may not make any difference: I've heard stories of WW2 press photographers stationed on ships in the middle of the ocean that would rinse their negatives in sea water.

[Professional]

When I process a few 4x5 sheets, I typically draw about a pint of each chemical (developer and fix) for my 8x10 trays, and wash with an indeterminate amount of water in a slightly larger tray. After fixing, I rinse the sheets with several changes of water (you can also use hypo clearing agent to speed up the process) and let the sheets soak for about 15 minutes before hanging them up to dry.

Of course, since you're in a desert land the water may be pretty hard - you may need to do a final rinse with distilled water to avoid staining your negatives. OTOH it may not make any difference: I've heard stories of WW2 press photographers stationed on ships in the middle of the ocean that would rinse their negatives in sea water.

How about if i developed in smaller tray than 8x10 [for 4x5]?
Is the developing process is same as or similar to MF/135mm films? I pre-soak then developer then stop bath then fixer and then wash for 10 minutes, then at last i soak in water with Photo-Flo[Wetting Agent], are those working with sheets in trays?

[Robert Hughes]

I've used tupperware and chinese food containers as developing trays in a pinch. My guess is that you can experiment with the materials and trays you have on hand and figure out what works for you. IMO, negative processing is pretty forgiving of technique and tools. The main thing to strive for is consistency in times and temperature. If I'm getting good results with D-76, 7 minutes at 76 degrees, I'm going to keep processing my film that way until somebody tells me there's a better way to do it.

Pre-soaking: can somebody who knows answer this question? I pre-soak as a matter of course, to rinse off the antihalation layer and stabilize the sheet prior to development.

[Rick A]

I started out developing one sheet of 4x5 at a time in chinese take out containers. Presoak, developer, stop bath, fix, into a larger tray of water to hold until all sheets were finished. Final rinse in Edwal LFN and distilled water after long wash. hang to dry.

[Filmnut]

You need a minimum amount of developer so that there is enough dev. agent present to adequately process your film. This would only be an issue if you are processing at high dilutions. I use Xtol at 1:1 and use about 600 ml of solution (300 dev + 300 water) in a 5X7 tray for 5 sheets of film. D-76 would be much the same, and is a good general purpose devloper. You certainly need enough to cover the film properly. Stop and fix I use more than that, so that the film is well submerged.
The most important thing is to keep your times and temp consistent.
Keith

[Professional]

OK, i did a risk and tested one more sheet, exposed it, and developed it, now it is under wash without Hypo Clearing agent, it reached the 9th minute while i am typing, for how long i should keep it there in water?

[Professional]

Funny thing is that i used a food curved plate for developing, 3 plates are around 5x7 but it is a round plate, and the water as pre-soak in a metal tray which is about 10x14.

[Brian C. Miller]

If you don't use hypo clear, then wash it for 20 minutes. The water needs to be barely trickling, as the chemicals need to leach out over time.

Hypo clear is a common chemical which neutralizes most of the hypo (fixer). It's easy to mix and it lasts a long time.

Ideally, the developing tray should be large enough that the negative edges are not affected by the agitation. Thus, 8x10 for 4x5. This is only important for the developing, not the other chemicals.

[Professional]

If you don't use hypo clear, then wash it for 20 minutes. The water needs to be barely trickling, as the chemicals need to leach out over time.

Hypo clear is a common chemical which neutralizes most of the hypo (fixer). It's easy to mix and it lasts a long time.

Ideally, the developing tray should be large enough that the negative edges are not affected by the agitation. Thus, 8x10 for 4x5. This is only important for the developing, not the other chemicals.

WOW, my back is screaming, i feel my body so tired as i was doing bodybuilding in gym, finished developing my 5th sheet[3rd B&W and my first self developing], and i don't know why but i used 20 minutes for washing before i read your post, so it was the right time i guessed i think.

I gonna buy the trays sooner or later, will buy 8x10 trays, but really it was a pain in..... doing that in the darkness, i even don't know how i managed the timer in that darkness, if i can't find a better daylight processing way then i am not gonna shoot and process a lot of sheets.

[Professional]

hanging for dry[since 30min], dunno for how long, but if i feel asleep then later tomorrow i will scan it, but i will wait a bit to see.

[ROL]

WOW, my back is screaming, i feel my body so tired as i was doing bodybuilding in gym, finished developing my 5th sheet[3rd B&W and my first self developing], and i don't know why but i used 20 minutes for washing before i read your post, so it was the right time i guessed i think.

I gonna buy the trays sooner or later, will buy 8x10 trays, but really it was a pain in..... doing that in the darkness, i even don't know how i managed the timer in that darkness, if i can't find a better daylight processing way then i am not gonna shoot and process a lot of sheets.

Hey, you've already walked across the coals, and been accepted into the fraternity. Don't give up as you're acquiring a new skill. Practice makes perfect.

[Professional]

Hey, you've already walked across the coals, and been accepted into the fraternity. Don't give up as you're acquiring a new skill. Practice makes perfect.

Sure, pain and seeing the results is a FUN, all what i have to do is as you said, keep practice more.

[Filmnut]

Keep it up! When processing I have myself set up with a padded stool, and some nice music to pass the time. Processing can be a bit of an escape.
As others have said, you don't necessarily need to use photo trays, you might be able to find some suitable sized containers at a grocery store.
Keith

[Professional]

Where i should post my first self-developing sheet, here or another forum[which one]?

[Professional]

Or new thread?

[William McEwen]

Congratulations!

Don't give up now! You'll get used to it and you'll enjoy it. Really!

You will reach the point where you will find tray developing is relaxing. And the expectation is always fun -- in six more minutes, I can turn the light on and look at these...

It's one of the recurring special events in a photographer's life... I encourage you to try it a few more times before you decide whether to find a different path.

[Professional]

Here is my first sheet i develop by myself.

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5037/img141nq.jpg

full of scratches and not perfect, but i did it, i think i will relax now for those results and later will try to shot more, but i really would like to know how can i uload the film from the holder and store it for developing? i am not always going to shoot and develop or send to the lab immediately, so i don't want to shoot only when i am ready to go to the lab or in mood to develop, i just want to shoot as much as i can and store them in the fridge waiting for developing, but how to take it out from the holder in darkness and then how to store them? Should i buy a box where i can store them inside and if those boxes will save it from going out of the dark place until be in the fridge?

[Roger Thoms]

Personal favorite is the BTZS tubes. Once you have loaded the film in the tube and screwed the tube onto the caps which hold the developer you can do the rest with the lights on. Because of the water bath that the tubes float in you get very even development. You can either make you own or buy them ready made. Initially I made a couple to try them, then bought the professionally made ones. Some people complain about rolling the tubes, but that never bothered me.

Here's are the YouTube videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMXQO5ATgiY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_KGv_SqbzU&feature=related

Roger

[Professional]

Personal favorite is the BTZS tubes. Once you have loaded the film in the tube and screwed the tube onto the caps which hold the developer you can do the rest with the lights on. Because of the water bath that the tubes float in you get very even development. You can either make you own or buy them ready made. Initially I made a couple to try them, then bought the professionally made ones. Some people complain about rolling the tubes, but that never bothered me.

Here's are the YouTube videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMXQO5ATgiY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_KGv_SqbzU&feature=related

Roger

Ok, i found BTZS 4X5 Film Tube Kit which includes:

Tempering and holding tray
Six 4x5 film tubes with caps
Six extra caps (no need to pour developer in the dark)
Illustrated instructions

Are those all what i need or should i add something more?

[David de Gruyl]

I use both the BTZS tubes and HP Combiplan tank. Either work well and (with the exception of putting developer in the tube) are basically daylight processing. Tubes, however, require constant motion. I don't find this a problem with less than 15 minutes in the developer (longer than that gets very annoying).

I also have tanks and hangers as well as trays, but I find that I don't use them much for 4x5. They are 1 gallon 8x10 tanks, and are invaluable for developing more than a couple of 8x10 shots.

[David de Gruyl]

Ok, i found BTZS 4X5 Film Tube Kit which includes:

Tempering and holding tray
Six 4x5 film tubes with caps
Six extra caps (no need to pour developer in the dark)
Illustrated instructions

Are those all what i need or should i add something more?

You also need a couple of trays for stop, fixer and hypoclear, as well as a washing system. A cheap tanks with a hanger for 6 sheets works well for the hypoclear and wash steps (fill with hypoclear and soak for a couple of minutes, once you are done you can run water through the tank to wash the film). That tanks does not have to be light-tight, nor invertible.

Alternately, you can switch caps on the tubes to change the chemistry from developer to fixer. I'm not sure how well that works.

[William McEwen]

I really would like to know how can I uload the film from the holder and store it for developing. I am not always going to shoot and develop or send to the lab immediately, so I don't want to shoot only when I am ready to go to the lab or in mood to develop, I just want to shoot as much as I can and store them in the fridge waiting for developing, but how to take it out from the holder in darkness and then how to store them? Should I buy a box where I can store them inside and if those boxes will save it from going out of the dark place until be in the fridge?

You can unload your holders and store the exposed film in film boxes -- the same boxes that the film comes in. Make sure all three of the box elements are there, and that you seal it so it won't open accidentally. Keep it away from sunlight.

It's not necessary to store them in the refrigerator. Room temperature is fine, as long as it's not super hot. Develop them as soon as possible. I try not to let mine go for more than a few days, though I'm sure my good friends here on the forum have set all kinds of records in how long they've let exposed film go before developing, with no adverse effects.

[Professional]

I use both the BTZS tubes and HP Combiplan tank. Either work well and (with the exception of putting developer in the tube) are basically daylight processing. Tubes, however, require constant motion. I don't find this a problem with less than 15 minutes in the developer (longer than that gets very annoying).

I also have tanks and hangers as well as trays, but I find that I don't use them much for 4x5. They are 1 gallon 8x10 tanks, and are invaluable for developing more than a couple of 8x10 shots.


You also need a couple of trays for stop, fixer and hypoclear, as well as a washing system. A cheap tanks with a hanger for 6 sheets works well for the hypoclear and wash steps (fill with hypoclear and soak for a couple of minutes, once you are done you can run water through the tank to wash the film). That tanks does not have to be light-tight, nor invertible.

Alternately, you can switch caps on the tubes to change the chemistry from developer to fixer. I'm not sure how well that works.


I still don't know those posts, i think better to have photos of the tools, i watched the Utube videos but not sure what to get more than the kit and trays.

[Professional]

You can unload your holders and store the exposed film in film boxes -- the same boxes that the film comes in. Make sure all three of the box elements are there, and that you seal it so it won't open accidentally. Keep it away from sunlight.

It's not necessary to store them in the refrigerator. Room temperature is fine, as long as it's not super hot. Develop them as soon as possible. I try not to let mine go for more than a few days, though I'm sure my good friends here on the forum have set all kinds of records in how long they've let exposed film go before developing, with no adverse effects.

I don't have empty boxes, those film boxes are not empty, so i have to wait until i run out all the films, it will be the same problem if i take the film out of the box to use it for the exposed films, then where i can store those un-exposed taken out of their boxes?

Is there a way to save the exposed film until i develop it?

[rguinter]

I don't have empty boxes, those film boxes are not empty, so i have to wait until i run out all the films, it will be the same problem if i take the film out of the box to use it for the exposed films, then where i can store those un-exposed taken out of their boxes?

Is there a way to save the exposed film until i develop it?

No. Not very easily without the original box or multiple spare film holders.

You really need spare (i.e., empty) boxes.

Do you have any friends using large format films that you can borrow the necessary empties?

If not perhaps post a message here in the "for sale/wanted" section asking for some. After a while we all have more empties than we need.

Bob G.

[David de Gruyl]

I still don't know those posts, i think better to have photos of the tools, i watched the Utube videos but not sure what to get more than the kit and trays.

If you get the BTZS tube kit that you referenced, you need to stop, fix and wash after developing.

The "normal" way to do this is to use a tray for stop and a tray for fix, and a hanging washer for washing. If you have been developing film in trays, you have all that is necessary, beside the tubes and water tray. You have already stopped, fixed and washed film in trays, so you can use whatever procedure you have used before.

[Professional]

If you get the BTZS tube kit that you referenced, you need to stop, fix and wash after developing.

The "normal" way to do this is to use a tray for stop and a tray for fix, and a hanging washer for washing. If you have been developing film in trays, you have all that is necessary, beside the tubes and water tray. You have already stopped, fixed and washed film in trays, so you can use whatever procedure you have used before.

I see, i thought i need a machine or so to use those tubes, not just trays, but i will buy trays in all cases as i want to make them for developing, i used food trays just for test, and those trays are not expensive, i found them in one local store who sell Ilford films and chemicals as well, or if i buy them online they are cheapo anyway, so those tubes kit will be useful with trays and i don't need many other things then.

Thanks.

[Professional]

No. Not very easily without the original box or multiple spare film holders.

You really need spare (i.e., empty) boxes.

Do you have any friends using large format films that you can borrow the necessary empties?

If not perhaps post a message here in the "for sale/wanted" section asking for some. After a while we all have more empties than we need.

Bob G.

I see, then i think i will shoot when i am ready to develop or send it to the lab.

[David de Gruyl]

I see, then i think i will shoot when i am ready to develop or send it to the lab.

How are you sending film to the lab, if you don't have spare boxes?

[Professional]

How are you sending film to the lab, if you don't have spare boxes?

I just keep the film in the film holder, so that i don't have much holders which means i can't shoot more than the double number of the holders i have, and if i keep the film inside the holder until i develop the film then i can shoot until i empty the holder again, and it will take long time until i can order more holders.

[David de Gruyl]

I suggest placing a WTB (want to buy) ad in the classifieds for boxes. Maybe offer a dollar or two. (I know that I have film boxes coming out of my ears, but someone in your general area must also shoot LF).

You might also consider black bags such as http://freestylephoto.biz/4135-Black-Bag-for-Mailer-4x5?cat_id=1603 which is essentially the same as what comes in the ilford film or paper box. (Note: paper boxes are not light tight).

Maybe ask the local camera store if they have some lying around?

[Old_Time_Photography]

Did they tell you Jobo is usual in the $500.00 range I have been using Besler sin 1965 and there is even a motor Base here see link below
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=beseler+Drums+&_cqr=true&_nkwusc=Besler+Drums&_rdc=1
and see Yankee 4x5 Developing Tanks hope this will save you some money.

[Professional]

I suggest placing a WTB (want to buy) ad in the classifieds for boxes. Maybe offer a dollar or two. (I know that I have film boxes coming out of my ears, but someone in your general area must also shoot LF).

You might also consider black bags such as http://freestylephoto.biz/4135-Black-Bag-for-Mailer-4x5?cat_id=1603 which is essentially the same as what comes in the ilford film or paper box. (Note: paper boxes are not light tight).

Maybe ask the local camera store if they have some lying around?

I think i have this bag or similar i bought from B&H, it is used for protecting the film from X-ray, and they stated that it can protect up to 1600ASA film, so is that fine enough?

[Professional]

Did they tell you Jobo is usual in the $500.00 range I have been using Besler sin 1965 and there is even a motor Base here see link below
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=beseler+Drums+&_cqr=true&_nkwusc=Besler+Drums&_rdc=1
and see Yankee 4x5 Developing Tanks hope this will save you some money.

I thank i will go with BTZS option first.