What the heck????

[Pawlowski6132]

Why am I getting these 1/2 circles on the edge of my negatives?

Developed these 8x10s last night. I'm using a new camera, and shutter.

What do you guys thinK I can't figure it out.

:mad:

PIX (http://galleries.detroitdigitalimaging.com/negative/)

[Brian C. Miller]

This is definitely from your development process. I am going to guess that your are developing in a tray, the film is emulsion-side-up, and it is floating up to the top, or you don't have enough chemicals in the tray. Also, it looks like the film isn't properly cleared. Look at the attached photograph of a 8x10 negative, and you'll notice that the edge is clear. On only one of yours do you have a cleared edge (#2), and that's where the circle is.

[Pawlowski6132]

[QUOTE=Brian C. Miller;690480]This is definitely from your development process. I am going to guess that your are developing in a tray, the film is emulsion-side-up, and it is floating up to the top, or you don't have enough chemicals in the tray. Also, it looks like the film isn't properly cleared. Look at the attached photograph of a 8x10 negative, and you'll notice that the edge is clear. On only one of yours do you have a cleared edge (#2), and that's where the circle is.[/QUOTE

Holy crap! That's amazing. You're right on. Trays and I was trying to use minimum amount of developer using a brush technique and DBI.

But I can't imagine how the exact pattern developed at the same general location on the negatives; the spot is the same size, same pattern always on the edge of the negative. I don't understand how that can happen from development technique.

Can you elaborate?

thanx,

Joe

[Brian C. Miller]

Maybe you were pressing down on that spot? Or maybe the tray has a bit of friction there or something like that?

This is one of the reasons that I like using Xtol 1:1 or 1:2 or other developer that I can dilute and use one-shot. I've worked my way through an old (though still good!) bottle of Zonal Pro, and I've been using Ilford Ilfosol S. I can mix up a full tray of developer, (1qt for an 8x10 tray) use it and throw it out. I reuse the fix until the hypo check tells me it's exhausted.

The only time I use minimal chemicals is when I use my Jobo.

[Pawlowski6132]

Also, regarding the fixing and the edge not being clear...could it be because I'm using a staining developer? I always mix my developer fresh and didn't really approach the capacity.

Hmmm

[Brian C. Miller]

Oh, I've run into the same thing, and it was because I had applied too much pressure to the negative when I picked it up. I wound up with a finger's width of no stain. Until the negative is completely rinsed, those have to be handled very delicately.

OK, so you are using a pyro developer and brush technique.

How about getting a hanger? One of the guys here uses a hanger with bent ends so it lies flat in the tray.

[Pawlowski6132]

I think that's it. If I look at these, the mark is near the notch code. I pick up the film (emulsion up) and turn it over so I can view the negative through base so...I'm holding the neagative with my left hand in the upper left corner where the notch code is.

Strange, I don't remember this happening before.



Oh, I've run into the same thing, and it was because I had applied too much pressure to the negative when I picked it up. I wound up with a finger's width of no stain. Until the negative is completely rinsed, those have to be handled very delicately.

OK, so you are using a pyro developer and brush technique.

How about getting a hanger? One of the guys here uses a hanger with bent ends so it lies flat in the tray.

[nolindan]

I think the culprit is outrageous fogging stain from the use of brush developing with pyro. This is really a no-no: exposing the negative to air while it is wet with pyro will get you lots of non-image stain. I have never tried squeezing the stain from a negative, but that may have been what happened -- as the stain is caused by air exposure then it may be that the stain is all on the surface of the gelatin.

Pyro is cheap. It goes bad very quickly on exposure to air. Use lots of it in a tray. Lots and lots.

Another question: did you do a final rinse in the used pyro developer? Were you holding the negative during this rinse?

[Pawlowski6132]

I didn't do a final rinse in the developer.

But, I thought many fine art photographers use pyro formulas with their DBI technique don't they?

[Doremus Scudder]

Some thoughts on your problem.

First, the negatives do seem to have an inordinate amount of overall stain or fog. It is likely oxidation of the pyro due to too much exposure to the air, as mentioned above. This won't help your printing much: overall stain effectively fogs the shadows and eliminates shadow detail. Sure, you can print through it, but you won't get shadow separation anywhere around the fog level, which seems pretty high, and where shadow detail should be. So much fog effectively slows the film down by raising the FB+F density. You may want to rethink your development scheme (regular tray immersion with agitation instead of brush, or a different developer).

If you hold the neg with finger and thumb in the place you have your clear circles are, then you can safely assume that that is what is causing the problem, somehow. Either you are keeping the stain from forming by simply reducing this area's exposure to air, or you are damaging the emulsion enough to keep stain from forming, or you have somehow contaminated the neg by chemicals (fix or stop) carried over on your fingers. I tend to go with the former, but the last is a possibility as well.

Another thought: Are you very sure you have fixed properly? If so, then the fogging is definitely pyro stain. However, it might be opacity from unfixed silver halides. If you are not sure, refix the negs in fresh fixer.

Yet another thought: If you are doing DBI and your light source is too bright, you would fog your negatives overall, except for the place you were covering it with your fingers. This suddenly seems like a good possibility to me as well. It would account for the overall fog and the defect. Try developing a negative in total darkness with the timer (you should have a good idea of normal developing time) and see if the fog is still present. If not, then the (not very) safelight you are using for inspection is the culprit. I had some problems with light leaks in a darkroom years ago. I was amazed at how little light it took to fog a negative in the developer.

At any rate, you should consider the amount of fog you have to be a problem equal to or greater than the defects.

Hope this helps some,

Doremus Scudder

[Pawlowski6132]

Yes, yes, yes...

Going over it I did change a few things.

1. I rearranged my trays and I was at least 2 feet closer to the safelight I use for DBI.
2. I used the brush technique throughout the duration of the development time.
3. I obviously grabbed way too much of the negative for DBI.

Regarding the fix, I still think I'm OK there but, I'll check my formula.

Fortunately, I saved one negative out of the 10 I developed because I was too tired that night.

I'll re-develop and make some chagnes and see.

Joe

[John Berry]

Wash your hands with liquid Joy. Strips all the oil off your hands. ( Mechanics trade secret ) If you get oil in the emulsion it might not be able to absorb chemicals. All in the same place looks like loading not processing. Potato chips and film are not a good match.