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View Full Version : Multi-coated Dagors? or Convertibles?



Roger Krueger
18-Feb-2011, 19:10
I like night photography with in-scene light sources, but that means a constant battle with flare.

It seems a multi-coated 6/2 Dagor would be a best case, but as far as I can tell the Schneider 550 XXL is all there is, and neither my wallet nor my spine are ready for the 20" x 24" experience.

Even using a single cell of a convertible would be fine, I'm O.K. with stopping way down, but, again, the only multi-coated option seems to be well outside my wallet, the Cooke XVA.

Any ideas? (Hopefully staying within shouting distance of $1k.)

Oren Grad
18-Feb-2011, 19:30
I wonder whether a late-production, multicoated Rodenstock Geronar, a triplet design, might offer any advantages for this use. The price is certainly right, and they're available to cover up to 8x10. What format are you using?

Dan Fromm
18-Feb-2011, 19:46
Have you tried a single-coated Dagor and found it wanting? I ask because most post-WWII Dagors and clones are coated and not too hard to find under your your limit. Excepting really long ones. The one I shoot most, a 210/7.7 clone, is quite flare-resistant.

Which brings us to Oren's question. What focal length are you looking for?

Jan Pedersen
18-Feb-2011, 19:48
Don't forget the MC 14" Dagor made my Kern under the Schneider name. Most that come up for sale are single coated but there are MC lenses to. The very last run of the Dagor's.

cdholden
18-Feb-2011, 21:27
I've got an early 305/9 G-Claron which is single coated. Those were dagor designs before switching over to plasmat.
It covers 7x17 with room for movements.

Roger Krueger
19-Feb-2011, 01:42
75 or 90 on 4x5 would probably be my combo of choice, but I'd be flexible for the right situation. Probably not past 8 x 10 though. Not too concerned about movements. And I would vastly prefer something I could come up with a scale-focus + viewfinder solution for. The Cambo Wide at night is effortless, using the GG on my Linhof Color really bites.

(Which actually gets me to a side issue--are there 4x5 bodies that have a useful generic focusing scale? I understand I'd have to do my own calibrations for funky lenses, but I'd like that a lot more than trying to GG focus slow glass in the dark wondering who's coming up behind me on a deserted street.)

I'll admit I haven't tried a single-coated Dagor yet. While my single-coated Tessar (150/5.6 on 6x9 Mamiya Press) can't really handle bright/close streetlights, it did better than my multi-coated 8/4 35mm APO Grandagon, (although the massive difference in FOV might have as much to do with it as group count.) I guess I should give it a spin, not like old Angulons are big bucks these days. (non-Supers are all 6/2's, right?)

Re: Geronars--As with the Angulons above, yeah, it wouldn't break the bank to try one. Although if I'm going up to three groups wouldn't a 4/3 Tessar be just as good a flare resister? I was under the impression it was about groups, not elements (hence the preference for the 6/2 Dagor). Which I suppose then leads to "Any MC Tessars?"

Dan Fromm
19-Feb-2011, 06:33
Roger, classic f/6.8 Dagors aren't as wide as you want. If you want a 75 or a 90 that will cover 4x5 you'll have to get a modern wide angle lens. The 75/4.5 Biogon is out of your price range and I've never used the one in my closet so have no first hand experience with one, but the single-coated 38/4.5 I do use is very flare resistant.

That you say you want a wide angle lens and are willing to be distracted by thoughts of Tessars and triplets is a very bad sign.

Go educate yourself. Use a library. Or search, hard and a lot. Your questions look short and simple, actually want long answers. The short answers you'll get here will be incomplete and misleading.

Roger Krueger
19-Feb-2011, 13:47
Dan: Sorry if I was unclear--Considering Tessars and triplets (and convertible cells) isn't the sign of ignorance you take it to be, merely that FoV is very much a secondary consideration. I understand that none of these is going to get me anywhere close to 90.

But 90 does appear to be an FoV that the Dagor design can hit, per the 90 Angulon. So 90-equivalent seems like a reasonable best case. But if the right answer is narrower--even a lot narrower--so be it.

I (mostly) get the theory, it's the available product I'm shaky on.

Paul Ewins
19-Feb-2011, 15:42
The Angulon isn't a Dagor, it was the early Doppel Anastigmat Symmar that used the Dagor formula. in 1939 Schneider claimed 105 for the Angulon and 80 for the Symmar while Goerz claimed 87 for the Dagor (all at smallest stop) and said that 90mm Dagor would only cover 3 1/4 x 4 1/4. For 4x5 your choices are the 90mm or 120mm Angulon or a 105mm or greater Dagor. I don't think any of the Angulons were ever multi-coated.

Drew Wiley
19-Feb-2011, 15:51
The most flare-resistant lenses I ever owned were Kern 14" multicoated Dagors.
They don't come up for sale too often and the prices seem ridiculous. Will easily
cover 8x10 with moderate movement, but inferior to G-Clarons or Fuji A's of similar
focal length when it comes to sheer sharpness or corner sharpness at somewhat
greater tilts. I have experience with a single-coated late Kern dagor too, and while
it is a damn nice lens, and in some ways more desirable than the MC version (which
can be just too contrasty in some circumstances), I would not call it equal in terms
of flare control. Another option, somewhat cheaper, would be a 450 Nikkor M, which
has only six air to glass interfaces. But the only four of the dagor design would be
even better.