PDA

View Full Version : MTF for Rodenstock Sironar-S 210mm



georgl
12-Feb-2011, 01:43
Short question, short answer: Has anybody the MTF for the 210mm ?

thanks!

ypres.bass
12-Feb-2011, 02:56
WTF what's MTF? :-)

Bob Salomon
12-Feb-2011, 03:24
Short question, short answer: Has anybody the MTF for the 210mm ?

thanks!

I can get them if you send me a pm to my regular email address. Bob@hpmarketingcorp.com. Should have them by Earl next week.

Bob Salomon
12-Feb-2011, 03:26
WTF what's MTF? :-)

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/understanding-mtf.shtml

Bob Salomon
12-Feb-2011, 07:23
I now have the curves if you still want them. Just email me and I will send them to you.

georgl
12-Feb-2011, 08:36
Hi Bob!

I send you a message with the internal e-mail-function, I overread the first message, sorry.

Thank you!

Bob Salomon
12-Feb-2011, 10:31
Hi Bob!

I send you a message with the internal e-mail-function, I overread the first message, sorry.

Thank you!

Bob Salomon
12-Feb-2011, 10:32
Hi Bob!

I send you a message with the internal e-mail-function, I overread the first message, sorry.

Thank you!

I sent you the curves earlier. Let me know if you need anything else.

georgl
13-Feb-2011, 03:37
Thank you!

Seems definitely like THE standard lens for 4x10, nice angle, small and the best MTF among lenses covering 8x10 (barely). Still looking for a companion with longer focal length.

Are the "Linhof"-lenses still selected for higher quality?

But also a little bit sad to see that they never pushed for more advanced, radical designs, just did some shots with an old Hassi SWC (which should be superior to almost any LF-lens) and my Summicron 28 for Leica M on Velvia, under a 10x loupe, the Leica-slides blow the Hassi away (the MTF states ~20% more contrast in fine detail - interesting how that transfers to real-world-images), I love the crispness and microdetail! But I guess I can and will live with that on a gigantic 4x10-slide ;-)

Ken Lee
13-Feb-2011, 05:31
May we see the curves ? I'm sure they are quite impressive.

Ken Lee
13-Feb-2011, 05:35
If you like those 35mm Leica details, imagine what you can get with some of their other products (http://www.leica-microsystems.com/products/light-microscopes/life-science-research/upright-microscopes/details/product/leica-dm3000/) :)

"This $300 used 4 x 5 is sharper than a new $3,000 Hasselblad and worlds beyond a $5,000 Leica, Contax, Canon or Nikon."

Bob Salomon
13-Feb-2011, 06:13
Thank you!

Seems definitely like THE standard lens for 4x10, nice angle, small and the best MTF among lenses covering 8x10 (barely). Still looking for a companion with longer focal length.

Are the "Linhof"-lenses still selected for higher quality?

Yes, the Linhof test duplicates Rodenstock's final QC tests using Rodenstock equipment.


"But also a little bit sad to see that they never pushed for more advanced, radical designs, just did some shots with an old Hassi SWC (which should be superior to almost any LF-lens) and my Summicron 28 for Leica M on Velvia, under a 10x loupe, the Leica-slides blow the Hassi away (the MTF states ~20% more contrast in fine detail - interesting how that transfers to real-world-images), I love the crispness and microdetail! But I guess I can and will live with that on a gigantic 4x10-slide ;-)

But they have. Just look at all of the Digital lenses from Rodenstock like the new 23mm and the 32mm.
Unfortunately the market for large format is shrinking much faster then digital large format is growing.

georgl
13-Feb-2011, 07:03
Neither the microscope or the digital lenses work well with 4x10"-Velvia ;-)

Bob, would you mind if I post the PDF you send me here? It would be less stressful for you than posting the MTF for every single person...

Bob Salomon
13-Feb-2011, 07:16
Post away.
4x10 is not something that mainstream users are looking for. If there was really a vibrant market for new large format bigger then 45 then you would see more lens developments for those sizes. But today even 45 isn't a growth market so development and R&D is going into digital.

georgl
13-Feb-2011, 07:29
80% MTF at center @20lp/mm - no other LF-lens (that covers 8x10") does that!?

Schneider even designed these strange XXL-lenses!?

You're propably right, but I also think that some >4x5" shooters would be willing to spend significant amounts of money just like they did for their 10k$-Ebony ;-)

Judging slidges and scans from nice films like Velvia or Ektar it would be great to have diffraction-limited f11/f16-designs - I wouldn't be surprised if such a design from Leica or Zeiss would even attract collectors - as lons they pay the development...

engl
13-Feb-2011, 11:42
You're propably right, but I also think that some >4x5" shooters would be willing to spend significant amounts of money just like they did for their 10k$-Ebony ;-)


Sure, but both of them are rich enough to order custom optics if needed. I assume you are familiar with the Zeiss 1700mm F4 lens for medium format...

80% MTF at 20lp/mm is a nice number on a paper. It applies only to the center, at the ideal film plane, at F11. How many 8x10 shooters use F11 for anything besides focusing or shallow DOF effects?

georgl
13-Feb-2011, 13:41
I've never heard of any custom optics for large format in this regard. Have you?

f11 is propably the largest aperture usable in 8x10" for "conventional" photography, it's like f2 for 35mm regarding DoF - that's not much but perfectly usable for most landscape or architecture photography - whenever large DoF isn't necessary because of a large image ratio.
f16 on modern filmstock makes diffraction visible, IMHE and f22 is the absolute limit for large magnifications.
But with current optics, f11 is only close to being diffraction limited near centre, so is f16 - it could be better. Just three common focal lengths with a production run of a few hundred - it would be nice to have this option, even when you have to wait some time till those "über-lenses" affordable on Ebay ;-)

engl
13-Feb-2011, 14:36
No I'm not aware of any such lenses, but I'm not really knowledgeable enough about the big four to know if there are any. I just think the demand for sharper top end lenses for 8x10 is comparable to the demand for 1700mm F4 lenses for MF. Tiny volumes and ridiculously expensive, might as well wait for a custom order :)

Before you talk as F11 perfectly usable for landscape and architecture on 8x10, you should try it. I do not think you have any idea what you are talking about.

Bob Salomon
13-Feb-2011, 14:38
Sure, but both of them are rich enough to order custom optics if needed. I assume you are familiar with the Zeiss 1700mm F4 lens for medium format

That lens was made for an Emir and there probably aren't that many Emirs looking for custom optics. There were also some custom Rollei 3000 SLRs and Linhofs that were built in the 80s for the Syrian Defense Minister but that was also a very limited market.

I saw that 1700mm Hasselblad lens hanging over the Hasselblad booth at Photokina the year it was made. It was about the length of a showcase - about six feet long and very heavy.

georgl
14-Feb-2011, 00:55
Before you talk as F11 perfectly usable for landscape and architecture on 8x10, you should try it. I do not think you have any idea what you are talking about.

It depends on the image ratio, I used f16 when I tested large format because it is the "ideal" aperture for the last generation of lenses - whenever I didn't need more DoF - and before stopping down beyond f22, I've tried Scheimpflug.
I took some photos of the Berliner Reichstag some time ago, the buildung is approx. 150m wide. I just typed those number into a DoF-calculator:
300mm lens, 200m distance to object and f11 make >200m DoF (@coc of 0.02mm) - sounds usable to me - not with every filmholder or wobbly wooden camera, but nothing someone who wants crisp 8x10"-slides from his 20k$-equipment and his "LF-digaron" would concern - don't you think?

I've seen the discussion about diffraction some time ago and the most experienced photographers agreed: stop down till you have enough DoF... Of course, I won't stick to f11/16 and compromise the sharpness on large parts of the images just to drool over some sharper grass blades somewhere... But, IMHO, the lack of microdetail and overall crispness of a LF-slide watched with a loupe on the light-table at f32, f45... is pretty disappointing. It makes you wonder if carrying around this large equipment made sense at all...


On custom-lenses:
Those extreme teles are ridiculous - nice that they put some money into the right pockets (investments into R&D + production - more than a million Zeiss-branded Sony-lenses...) but otherwise pretty uninteresting.

The Sironar-S lenses are close to being diffraction limit from f11 on - at center. More complex wideangle designs in smaller formats have shown that it is possible to hold this performance in a wide range - this is not a multi-million-$ 200kg lens we're talking about, more like the designs we know from the Digarons. I seriously think that "LF-Digarons" would be profitable, it's more the theoretical risk of such an investment, a group of 100-200 photographers would need to come together and make a pre-order to make this little "experiment" calculable.
I remember the stories of the pretty quick sold-out Sironar-W 300...

Those "LF-digarons" won't be interesting to any ULF-contact-printer, that's right but it would be nice to have the choice!