How to get a quality affordable drum scanner?

[zhengjdc]

As the price of Nikon 9000 ed hiking to over $4000+ for used, it wouldn't be financially justifiable and one can probably get a used AzTek 4500 drum scanner for cheaper price.

The question is where to buy such a drum scanner? I would like to have one with drum mounter and software, been seeing it selling for $3200 used somewhere.

Also, what to examine when buying a drum scanner? as I understood the drum must be in perfect round shape and the surface must be scratch-free.

Help me in choosing a low-end drum scanner. :D :D

[Peter De Smidt]

You might call Aztek and see if they have any used scanners in stock. It might not be the cheapest way, but you'd be assured of getting a scanner in good working condition.

[domaz]

Remember that scanning with a drum scanner isn't as easy as scanning with a Nikon. You have to mount the film in the drum, possibly with fluid- but if you have the space I think it is a great idea. You might try the Scan Hi-End (http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/ScanHi-End/) group to get more information about drum scanners.

[Lenny Eiger]

The question is where to buy such a drum scanner? I would like to have one with drum mounter and software, been seeing it selling for $3200 used somewhere.

I think $3200 is a great price for all of it....

There have been many 4500's selling anywhere from $1500 to $4000 or more, depending on what comes with it.. The relationship with the seller is important, you have to have the confidence that the machine and the mounting station, etc., were treated properly and that they are delivering you something that actually works.

When I purchased my last scanner I had the seller send it directly to Aztek for maintenance. I made a deal with him that if Aztek found it to be a piece of junk, that I could return it to him. I would cover the shipping... so he had no reason not to agree.

It was a little more expensive to do it that way, but it made a lot of difference. When I got a scan that wasn't so good, I knew it was my fault and not the fault of a problematic scanner.

Good luck,

Lenny
EigerStudios

[Richard Mahoney]

...

When I purchased my last scanner I had the seller send it directly to Aztek for maintenance. I made a deal with him that if Aztek found it to be a piece of junk, that I could return it to him. I would cover the shipping... so he had no reason not to agree.

It was a little more expensive to do it that way, but it made a lot of difference. ...

Whenever I've bought an old Land Rover I've always had it checked twice: first by the AA (Automobile Association) for general road worthiness and so on; and then, AA test results in hand, by a trustworthy firm specialising in Land Rover repairs, for a detailed inventory of required repairs and their likely cost. No seller has ever refused me this courtesy and the upshot is that I've always known -- within reason -- what I'm buying. ... In my opinion Lenny's advice is about the best you'll get.


Kind regards,

Richard

[Lenny Eiger]

I'll add one more thing. In one sense, the title is a fair question, in another it's not. Regardless of what scanner one purchases at the mid-high end of things, its going to cost you. I bought my first 4500 for a few K, and was surprised to find they had supplied an older mounting station. It worked, but poorly. I replaced it. Drums are expensive, the fluid and acetate are expensive. Hey, even pec pads are expensive. Of course, learning, on any machine, takes time.

It isn't much different from buying a new 4x5 and a lens. It takes time to get to know the equipment, to be able to trust it. You go through a bunch of film and developer.

All in all, photography is pretty expensive. It changes, but the expensive part never seems to disappear....

I would say to be prepared to spend a little more than you think you are going to, even with the best of planning. Try and be ok about, in the end you will have some great quality from a new tool like the one you are contemplating...

Lenny
EigerStudios

[zhengjdc]

Apart from Aztek, where else is a reliable place to buy a used drum scanner?

[felix5616]

ICG sells refurbished/used sscanners

[Peter De Smidt]

You should check with Karl Hudson.

See: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=58229&highlight=karl+hudson

And:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=68768

[John T]

Genesis Equipment in Phoenix

[Ben Syverson]

As the price of Nikon 9000 ed hiking to over $4000+ for used, it wouldn't be financially justifiable and one can probably get a used AzTek 4500 drum scanner for cheaper price.
Yeah, totally! I've seen 4500's and similar scanners go for $1500. They're incredible deals—unless for some stupid reason you value your time.

I know one photographer who bought a 4500, and it basically drove him to shoot digital. He had maddening problems with air bubbles.

Honestly, you couldn't pay me enough. I'd much rather pay Lenny Eiger to do it! He's the guy I would contact if I had some MF that needed scanning.

[Lenny Eiger]

I know one photographer who bought a 4500, and it basically drove him to shoot digital. He had maddening problems with air bubbles.

Honestly, you couldn't pay me enough. I'd much rather pay Lenny Eiger to do it! He's the guy I would contact if I had some MF that needed scanning.

Ben, thanks for the vote of confidence!

I was very fortunate just as I got my scanner to be shown how to mount by someone.... I don't do it exactly like him anymore, it's a matter of how one holds one's hand, the pressure on the tape, what to do first and second. It's always been my contention that it takes about 35-45 times before you get it right. Bubbles are also caused by having a sub-standard mounting station. It could be as simple as replacing the springs. The older metal-sided mounting stations were notorius...

I remember a story Aztek told me about a scanner that was sent to them via UPS or Fedex. The driver kept flipping it over from the truck to the door (instead of using a hand truck, I suppose). They stood watching him in amazement. When he got to the door they simply refused it. By that time it was a destroyed machine. That's why they insist on specific custom shippers now... there are plenty of maddening things that can happen, beyond bubbles....

Lenny
EigerStudios

[zhengjdc]

Ok, I found a seller who sells a used Aztek d4000, but when I got their the machine threw an error code F702, which he claimed to be the bad belt... He contacted me 1 week later and claimed that he had fixed the problem and consistently reminds me that sellers from U.S.A are also querying about this item. I am about to give it an actual scan... wonder whatelse could go wrong with the machine.

Btw, how do you examine the drums? the drums seem to be fine but under heavy lights, I saw it isn't smooth, as if they are machined by very tiny sand paper.

The thing comes with 4 drums, mounting fluid, station and an old mac.

Originally,He asks only for $500 initial and claimed that I can fix that f702 problem by myself with which he won't bother, but now he says he had fixed this belt problem, and the price will be higher, Sounds fishy?

[Daniel Stone]

I'm no expert on drum scanners, but if the drums aren't PERFECTLY CLEAR, I wouldn't use them for scanning film(transmissive light), but ONLY for reflective(prints). The drums need to be perfectly clear, with no scratches or pitting(what you describe as "fine sandpaper").

I'd stay away from this deal, it smells "fishy" to me, really stinky...

-Dan

[Noah A]

It does sound a little fishy but that price is very low.

A new drum from Aztek will run you close to $2k. Used, mint condition drums often go for more than $500. A new mounting station could run you $2k, used I'd be very surprised to find one less than $500.

The drums should be very clear, they should not look like they were sanded. Some minor scratches, especially near the edges, are likely on an older drum and may not affect your scanning as long as they're close to the edges (where the tape will go, not in the scanning area). But these drums sound like trash.

Obviously the best way to go is to buy a refurbished scanner from Aztek, but that's quite pricey.

If you can get this scanner for anything close to $500, it may not be a bad deal. But be aware that you'll likely have to spend more money on it, to buy a better drum and maybe parts for the scanner. You may end up buying another scanner for parts...but IF the mounting station is a good one, it may be worth the $500 by itself.

On the bigger issue of choosing a drum scanner to begin with, for me the Nikon scanner is the one that almost drove me back to digital! Issues with film flatness in particular made scanning a real chore. The drum scanner is great since I can load up 4-4x5 negs, make my settings then I can attend to other matters for 80 minutes or so while the scanner does its work.

I bought my Howtek 8000 on Ebay, but from a photographer who offered an afternoon of training at his studio with the purchase. It was very helpful, though I guess not absolutely necessary. I picked up the mounting technique fairly quickly, though as Lenny said it does take some time to get up to speed. I wouldn't let it scare you off though. It's not as hard as some people would have you believe. I was getting scans the first week that were light years ahead of my Nikon scans. Now it's easy, and kind of fun.

And it's a huge cost savings, at least for my business. Decent Aztek drum scans in my city are around $100 for 4x5. I just did 60 scans from a recent one-week shooting trip. So I already paid for the scanner and enough fluid and mylar to last quite a long time...

[BetterSense]

What do you use the mylar for?

Sorry, I'm not really familiar with drum scanners or how they are used.

[Lenny Eiger]

What do you use the mylar for?

Sorry, I'm not really familiar with drum scanners or how they are used.

When you mount a piece of film on a drum, you have to mount it with something. One tapes the edge of a piece of acetate to the drum, inserts a piece of film between drum and acetate and squirts an amount of mounting fluid all over it. The acetate is pulled tight - usually in a mounting station with the help of rollers - and taped securely on all sides.

One doesn't want the liquid spraying all around on the inside of a scanner as the drum spins around... so its important to make sure the tape is flush to the drum everywhere.

The film sits in the liquid, which fills in scratches and makes some dust transparent - when you're lucky, which is pretty often.

Lenny

[sanking]

I thought all the bargains for drum scanners were gone on ebay but recently I picked one up a Howtek D4000 for less than $500, in great condition, with a mounting station and two drums in pristine condition, plus manual and lots of supplies (tape, mylar, etc). The scanner was in an art studio and according to the owner, had seen very light use. I had to make a road trip to check it out and pick it up, but all went well and it is here now in my work room and I have made several excellent scans with it. I had to purchase a copy of SilverFast to run it with OSX system but that was a relatively modest expenditure.

Although I already have an excellent flatbed scanner (EverSmart Pro) my plan is to use the D4000 for scanning medium format negatives and keep the EverSmart for LF and ULF film. I have been using an old Leafscan 45 for medium format B&W film, and it gives superb quality, but the work flow with the D4000 is much faster, and at least of equal quality.

Sandy

[Sideshow Bob]

If you are in the San Francisco bay area you can buy my extra ScanMate 5000.
Gale

[DrPablo]

The scanners are such a pain to ship that some people give up hope of selling them over E-bay. I found mine (a Howtek 4500 plus two drums, mounting station, replacement bulbs, and a Mac) for G3 on Craigslist and they were willing to ship it to me. It ran me about $3000 total, plus probably a few hundred more for supplies. Craigslist doesn't have a global search function, but if you google "drum scan craigslist" you'll see what's out there.

Agree with the Hi End Scan group, people advertise used drum scanners there every now and then/

[Lenny Eiger]

There was one posted on another list for $950 or best offer. Needs a maintenance but has been in use. Includes drums and mounting station. I'd ship it directly to Aztek... pretty cheap if you ask me...

Lenny

[zhengjdc]

I bought it as it turns out to be just belt problem. The drums seem to be fine, well, probably I didn't describe them correctly, the drums is simply dirty with spider nests.

totally 4 drums with mounting station + a box of all sorts of fluid, and a power Mac with Polaris installed.

The scanning result is good...at least to my eyes. I will post the picture soon see if you guys can tell whether the drum is good or not. I have scanned at 4000dpi.

btw, anyone has D4000 manual?

[zhengjdc]

One more thing, how do you clean the INSIDE of the drum? there's quite a lot dirt there and I haven't thought about a solution for such cleaning, water might leave marks on the inside and not sure how you are gonna clean it afterwards.... btw, is there any cheap drum bag other than the one sold by Aztek?

also, I utilizing KAMI mounting fluid and it dries rather quickly, thus exempted me from using mylars? as it's not very likely for the fluid to spill while spinning.

[zhengjdc]

1 more question:

How safe are those 3M Scotch® Safe-Release™ BLUE Masking Tape on drums? the Aztek tape is a bit too expensive for the kind of myself.

[Noah A]

Where to start...

You can clean the inside (and outside) of the drum with the Kami fluid and the Kami wipes. You could also use other soft, lint-free wipes like PEC pads, but don't skimp here. New drums are very expensive.

The Kami fluid does evaporate quickly, and that is one reason you need the mylar. The mylar, and the tape, form a seal to keep the fluid from evaporating away during the scan. The mylar also lets you have fluid on both sides of the film, which helps fill in minor scratches. I've never heard of scanning without mylar, but it sounds like a really bad idea.

There's no way I would try blue painter's tape. It probably won't stick since the Kami will likely affect the adhesive. Seems like a bad way to save money. How expensive will it be if you ruin your negatives (and perhaps damage the scanner) when your film comes off in the middle of scanning?

I use Kami tape to seal the edges then some Tesa tape to reinforce the seal. The Tesa tape is a bit cheaper than the Kami tape. But again, the Kami tape is really the only tape that will work in contact with the Kami fluid, since the fluid will dissolve the adhesive in other tapes. There is a video about mounting on the Aztek website that shows the process.

The supplies seem expensive but the fluid lasts quite a while, you don't need to use too much. Same with the Mylar, I'm still on my first box and I've done hundreds of scans.

The key is to scan multiple pieces of film at once. Wait until you have enough to fill up the drum. I scan 4-4x5 negs or 9-6x7 negs each time.

[zhengjdc]

Where to start...

You can clean the inside (and outside) of the drum with the Kami fluid and the Kami wipes. You could also use other soft, lint-free wipes like PEC pads, but don't skimp here. New drums are very expensive.

The Kami fluid does evaporate quickly, and that is one reason you need the mylar. The mylar, and the tape, form a seal to keep the fluid from evaporating away during the scan. The mylar also lets you have fluid on both sides of the film, which helps fill in minor scratches. I've never heard of scanning without mylar, but it sounds like a really bad idea.

There's no way I would try blue painter's tape. It probably won't stick since the Kami will likely affect the adhesive. Seems like a bad way to save money. How expensive will it be if you ruin your negatives (and perhaps damage the scanner) when your film comes off in the middle of scanning?

I use Kami tape to seal the edges then some Tesa tape to reinforce the seal. The Tesa tape is a bit cheaper than the Kami tape. But again, the Kami tape is really the only tape that will work in contact with the Kami fluid, since the fluid will dissolve the adhesive in other tapes. There is a video about mounting on the Aztek website that shows the process.

The supplies seem expensive but the fluid lasts quite a while, you don't need to use too much. Same with the Mylar, I'm still on my first box and I've done hundreds of scans.

The key is to scan multiple pieces of film at once. Wait until you have enough to fill up the drum. I scan 4-4x5 negs or 9-6x7 negs each time.

Thanks for your insight.

The KAMI mounting fluid seems leaving somewhat residue after drying up, hmm... not sure whether it's my cheap blue tape that's been dissolved.

I just tried scanning without mylar and sealed the edges of the film, The fluid does stay inside. I learned this from the previous owner of this scanner..... He does digital retouching most the time and never bothered using a piece of mylar, even claims that mylars adding additional layer that will hide more details. lol, why is it everything I have heard is sooo contradictory.

The blue tape is quite safe for the Kami fluid, at least it doesn't come off or dissolve immediately and I have been used it for my flatbed (Epson v700 with betterscanning kit), but like I said, still not sure about the residue after KAMI fluid dried up, whether it's caused by dissolving of the tape or simply KAMI tends to leave something there. I will do an experiment after this.

The only Mylar I can currently get is the Aztek optical mylar selling at Vistek for $100 for a box of 100 sheets, $1 per sheet is very expensive, and Vistek refused to let me buy individual sheets but a box of entire 100 sheets.... I will see if I can try some cheap mylars at arts store.

[onnect17]

Somebody in the forum mentioned (and I use) Windex WITHOUT amonia to clean the drum and it does a good job. I use ScanScience fluid and regular artists tape.

You can buy the Aztek Mylar at FreeStylePhoto at a better price. Send me a PM regarding the manual.

[zhengjdc]

Somebody in the forum mentioned (and I use) Windex WITHOUT amonia to clean the drum and it does a good job. I use ScanScience fluid and regular artists tape.

You can buy the Aztek Mylar at FreeStylePhoto at a better price. Send me a PM regarding the manual.

thanks for your adive.

For the tape, I still prefer the 3M blue scotch tape over anything else. I just tried a small roll of tesa tape yesterday and it sucked. The tesa tape had tons of residues all over the drum which is soooo hard to clean, I literally had to *scrub* them off with PEC pad. Haven't tried the Aztek tape yet, but the price is way too high for a tape.

The 3M tape doesn't react with Kami fluid at all (3 days test) and leaves ZERO residue and is dirty cheap ($2 per roll at Walmart), I don't know why someone had never discovered this amazing tape before....

I will see if I can successfully mount the film without air bubbles with 3M tapes before buying mylars, It seems that as long as you seal the edges completely well, there's no need for a mylar at all and the fluid stayed beneath the film really well for a few hours, enough for a scan.

[Noah A]

The mylar is $80 at Aztek. Sure, it's expensive, but traditionally drum scanners were used by big photo labs so it makes sense that they sell in large packages. Perhaps as more individual photographers acquire these machines they'll start selling in smaller packages...or maybe not. Maybe if we all start requesting it they'll offer smaller packages. But 100 sheets for $100--that's $1/drum load, and if you put 4 negs on each load it's $.25 per scan, which is not too bad if you think about the price it costs to have a scan done at a lab.

The Tesa tape left the residue because the adhesive was partially dissolved by the fluid. The Kami tape leaves much less residue. That's why it's worth the price in my opinion. I use the Kami tape first to seal all of the edges, so that only the Kami tape touches the fluid. I then use the cheaper Tesa tape outside of that as extra insurance to hold everything together. Tesa doesn't leave the residue if it doesn't touch the fluid.

I understand wanting to keep costs under control. I'm just hesitant to use products on my drum that weren't intended for scanning. A new drum costs $2000. That's a lot of money to put out if something goes wrong.

[onnect17]

zhengjdc,
I can send you a sample of the aztek mylar if you located in the CONUS.

[zhengjdc]

Update:

What I said wasn't completely right as today I discovered that 3M blue tape indeed does dissolved under Kami fluid somewhat, contrary to most wet mounting people claim (including betterscanning.com), it dissolves to some degree and leave a bit marks on the drum, though definitely the best tape so far, it still does leave residues.

Seems the only option is going for the pricey Kami tape.... :( :( :(