Water Softeners: any recommendations?

[Jay Decker]

The misses asked if we could get a water softener. I am building a darkroom, so I had contain myself before calmly saying "sure, I think we could do that".

Was a little disappointed with what I found at Home Depot and Lowes. Any recommendations on what to look for, what to avoid, brands, or suppliers?

[Peter De Smidt]

I installed a Water Boss a number of years ago. It was easy to install, and there have been no issues with it.

[Scott Knowles]

Do you have a recent water quality report? If you're on a municipal system, they have to test the water into the system frequently along with the automated monitoring equipment. If you're on a rural system, the frequency is far less but still enough to help decide what major constitutents and organic, metalic, and other compounds you want or need to reduce or remove. If you're on an individual or common well, there may have been an initial test but nothing sinse unless there were reason it should be tested.

That's the first place to start and compare home water treatment systems, but rememer water softeners don't remove constitutents or compounds but merely exchange them through the treatment and flushing systems, so the effluent is more concentrated of those removed compounds, something not necessarily good for water treatment or septic systems. In addition, some of them use additional compounds (usually a salt compound) in the flusing process, which adds additional chemicals in the outflow.

Call your city, county or state water quality office for any available reports. You can also check the USGS NWIS Website for water quality data (let me know where you live and your water source and I can luck it up for you - used to work for the USGS). They will take water quality samples from wells with investigations. And whatever you do, take what any sales persons says with a grain of salt and a glass of water. Good luck.

[W K Longcor]

I agree with Peter -- The Water Boss (model 900) which I installed in my home last year has been excellent. I did the installation myself -- very easy.

Now, just one word of warning. Years ago ( ok, products have changed greatly since then so maybe this is no longer an issue) I installed a water softener in my studio. We were looking to improve the quality of our morning coffee. I began to have trouble with my black and white prints. My Kodak rep call it "edge frilling" -- the emulsion along the edge was lifting from the paper base. His suggestioneither add a handfull of epsom salts to the wash or get rid of the watersoftener. We decided to make our coffee from bottled water.

Like I said -- this was over 35 years ago and many things have changed - both water softeners and photo printing papers.

[Jay Decker]

Do you have a recent water quality report? If you're on a municipal system, they have to test the water into the system frequently along with the automated monitoring equipment...



Scott - good advise. (Disclosure: my background is chemical process engineering.) I did exactly what you suggested when we moved here, since I anticipated some concern from my family about the water quality. The anticipated concern was the level of radioactivity in the water since the Department of Energy Hanford Nuclear Reservation is located on the Columbia River just upstream of where we live in Kennewick, WA. By the way, the water here is well within acceptable radioactivity levels.

I learned several interesting things about the water here. First, the source of city water is actually two sources, the Columbia River and groundwater wells. The water is harder in the summer when groundwater wells are used to supplement the water supply for irrigation. The hardness typically ranges from 100 ppm to 140 ppm, which is equivalent to 6 to 8 grains per gallon. This level of water hardness is considered moderately hard to hard water. However, some homes can have water that is over 300 ppm hardness depending upon location within the water supply network and time of the year. The most of the other typical water contaminants, like iron and organic material, are within acceptable levels.

You can find free water hardness test strips at some home stores and water treatment system suppliers. The test are east to use, you dip a strip of paper in water, wait a specified period of time, and then compare the color the test chart which corresponds to a water hardness.

[Eric Biggerstaff]

We had a Culligan softner installed along with drinking water filtration for the house. Works very well, no problems and the water doesn't seem to create any issues in the darkroom.

[Daniel Stone]

what's the primary reason for wanting to install a softener, just out of curiosity?

lots of build-up on the shower heads or tile grime?

if you're wondering about using it for drinking water, there's been studies done where they've attributed high blood pressure to result from increased salinity levels in drinking water, stemming from the salts used in the "softening" process.

I'm in the process of installing a rev-osmosis system in my parents house for drinking/cooking water only. Membrane needs changing 2x a year, and works really well. You can actually taste the difference. My friend uses one as a final "bath" for holding his prints for 20min after the final wash(with tap water).

-Dan

[Peter De Smidt]

I had a new dish washing machine clog up in about 6 months because of the hardness of our water. The tech told me to get a softener, or he'd have to come back real soon. I'd also had some problems with stain on prints when toned. After I put in the softener, the problems went away. If you do put one in, make sure to bypass the softener with your cold drinking water line.

Reverse osmosis filters systems are very good, as long as you maintain them. In addition, make sure to check for bacterial contamination of the system, since the RO filter will take out chlorine. New RO systems should come with a vial and envelop, which you can send off for the test.

[Louie Powell]

Now, just one word of warning. Years ago ( ok, products have changed greatly since then so maybe this is no longer an issue) I installed a water softener in my studio. We were looking to improve the quality of our morning coffee. I began to have trouble with my black and white prints. My Kodak rep call it "edge frilling" -- the emulsion along the edge was lifting from the paper base. His suggestion either add a handfull of epsom salts to the wash or get rid of the water softener. We decided to make our coffee from bottled water.

Many years ago I routinely made Cibachrome prints (I said 'many years ago' - the process was later called Ilfochrome). For those old enough to remember, one had to establish a filtration baseline for each transparency emulsion; one of the advantages of Cibachrome over the Type R process was that once that baseline was known, individual prints rarely required filtration changes to achieve a satisfactory color balance.

My experience was that all my baselines changed when we installed a water softener. And what is worse, I was never able to arrive at a new set of consistent baselines when I used softened water to make up the Cibachrome chemistry.

[Jay Decker]

what's the primary reason for wanting to install a softener, just out of curiosity?

lots of build-up on the shower heads or tile grime?

if you're wondering about using it for drinking water, there's been studies done where they've attributed high blood pressure to result from increased salinity levels in drinking water, stemming from the salts used in the "softening" process.

I'm in the process of installing a rev-osmosis system in my parents house for drinking/cooking water only. Membrane needs changing 2x a year, and works really well. You can actually taste the difference. My friend uses one as a final "bath" for holding his prints for 20min after the final wash(with tap water).

-Dan

Dan - there are two reasons, to eliminate hard water deposits and to improve darkroom water quality.

Very hard water that is conventionally softened will result in treated water with a significantly increased sodium concentration. Everything is a matter of degree here, e.g., depends on the initial sodium content of the supply water and the increase in sodium content due to zeolite softening. In the case where sodium content might be an issue, or there is a water taste issue, a reverse-osmosis drinking water filtration system is a good solution - as long as the unit is well maintained.

It will be interesting to see if the water taste worse after installing a water softener. The water is only moderately hard here, so I don't know if the additional sodium in the water will be enough to make it taste bad.

[Robert Perrin]

We use potassium cloride instead of sodium cloride in our old Sears water softener. That avoids any issues with sodium for blood pressure or septic systems.

[joselsgil]

The water report that you need to look at is called a "annual water quality confidence report". They are generated by or for your local water purveyors in order to inform the customers of any water quality issues or concerns. It includes the known chemicals and levels present in your water. Also, it includes the sources or origins of your water. Sometimes, just switching from one well source to another well, can affect the water quality. This is especially true, if your water supplier does not have a large reservoir to blend the different water sources.
I work for a engineering firm that deals with just about any issues with water and water quality. We generate these reports for many of the local water companies. Unfortunately, not were Jay lives :D
Oh, I am not an engineers, just a water tech :)

If you are looking to improve the taste of your drinking water, you might try installing a home filtration system. Some systems have a particulate filter and a second filter with granular activated carbon (GAC). Depending on the water quality, and the amount of water you use, you will need to keep an eye on the filters until you can get a good baseline. Hopefully the plumbing in your house is better than the galvanized iron in my home.

One more thing, the GAC will remove the chlorine residual in your water.
One of the few benefits from using a water softener, is you can use less detergent when washing clothes. However, if you have health issues, like high blood pressure, you might reconsider installing one.

[Donald Miller]

Softeners can cause corrosion (leaching of metal) if you have copper plumbing. I have seen this happen many times...the copper plumbing eventually fails because of insufficient wall thickness.

[emmett]

I was always under the impression that hard water was better for washing film and prints. Sea water, being just about the hardest water you can find washes film and prints faster than regular water. You should mix your chemistry with RO or distilled water. If you're worried about your appliances that's one thing but photographically you're better off with hard water. If you do install a water softener you'll have longer wash times and will probably benefit from a sodium sulfite bath.

[HMG]

A few points:

Most water softeners are essentially configured. In other words, you have a tank (which is largely a commodity, though there are differences in water input/output design). You have a valve - which is sourced from a 2 or 3 companies (Fleck, Autotrol are the names I remember) and resin.

The resin, and to a certain extent the tank design, should be selected based on the water quality (hence the need for a water analysis). In particular, some resins do better with high iron than others. There is another filter entirely for really high iron. The problem I have with most off the shelf water softeners is that they use an "all purpose" resin. I've never found an all purpose anything that works as well as something carefully selected.

The valves come in different quality and levels of automation. Somewhat a personal choice.

The tanks come in different sizes and should be sized based on number of people, as well as water hardness. IIRC, I was once told that you count the number of people in household. Count teenaged boys as 2 and teenaged girls as 3. I'm serious, that's what I was told, take it for what it's worth. Almost any sized tank will work, but if it's too small you'll have to regenerate more often and waste water.

Some designs place the tank in the salt receptacle. I don't like that design because it's tougher to clean the salt tank. But with good quality pellet salt, you don't have to do that often.

I've bought and installed 2 water softeners (in 2 different homes). The first was a basic, off the shelf unit from Fleet Farm. It was 20 years old when we moved and still working. That was with city water that was relatively hard.

When I configured/bought/installed a water softener 2 years ago, I looked at the retail outlets and the places like Culligan. It was hard to get real info. Culligan would not or could not tell me the specifics of their resin (only that it was selected for the water in our area). I have well water and I wanted a water softener that fit my water hardness, iron, and manganese level.

I ended up going here: http://www.qualitywaterforless.com/Default.asp

I was able to configure a water softener (valve, tank, resin) and got what I feel was good advice. Delivery was quick and price was good. No complaints after 2 years. I only have that one data point; so take that into consideration. There are other vendors who can do the same.

Because I have well water, I installed a sediment filter in advance of the water softener. Not sure if this is necessary with city water, but definitely with well water.

[Jay Decker]

Here's what I ended up doing...

1) Softener: Fleck 5600 SXT On Demand 32,000 Grain Water Softener (http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/Fleck-5600-SXT-On-Demand-Water-Softener-s/24.htm) from Discount Water Softners. Ordered it with two upgrade options: a) Turbulator and b) C-249 Resin. The "magic" is in the resin so anything you can do to keep the resin cleaner and to get resin that is more resistant to the chlorine in city water will extend the life of the exchange resin. The life expectancy of this resin should be about 10-12 years, while the life expectancy of the resin in a Home Depot all in one system is 3-5 years. This softener is also designed to be "serviceable", e.g., the resin can be readily replaced, and life expectancy of the softener hardware, i.e., valve head, fiberglass tank, etc., is typically 20 to 30 years.

2) Installation notes: a) the sewer drain line was located above the overflow on the brine tank, so the brine tank was elevated with a couple concrete blocks (see the photos below). b) Installed unions between the shutoff valves and the softener, which were a great help in installation and if ever need to get behind the unit. c) Two holes were cut into the end of rubber sewer pipe cap through which the softener discharge line and the brine tank overflow lines where installed. The holes were made with metal tubing with a sharpened edge in an electric drill. The fit is tight enough that there are no sewer odors.

3) Programming: had to change a number of parameters in the units programming. One of the parameters needed is the hardness of the water in grains per gallon. I live in a town where I was able to get the hardness of the city water from public works department web page.

4) Cost: Culligan quoted $2,200 for an installed softening system. My system was less than $600 installed, but I had to invest about 4 or 6 hours of my time to put it together, make a couple trips to Home Depot, and plumb it up.







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[HMG]

Nicely done, though I am not a fan of plastic pipe. I assume there's a bypass valve in the in/out fitting.

I believe a lot of perfectly good softeners get tossed out when all they need is new resin.

[valerie1]

The misses asked if we could get a water softener. I am building a darkroom, so I had contain myself before calmly saying "sure, I think we could do that".

Was a little disappointed with what I found at Home Depot and Lowes. Any recommendations on what to look for, what to avoid, brands, or suppliers?

Hey Jay Decker:)

As you are looking for a water softener advice ,I would like to share my experience with you on Fleck 5600SXT Grain Water Softener System (http://www.top5watersofteners.com/) .It allows you to increase or decrease the hardness level by programming it on the display and it is easy to install, water tastes better,

Overall I was highly impressed with the service provided by Abundant Flow, and with the quality of the Fleck product. Great pairing!

Regards
Valerie Sabin

[Willie]

http://www.aquascience.net/products/filtration-treatment-systems/water-softeners

Not necessarily from this specific supplier but have had good luck with FLECK water softeners for home as well as commercial darkrooms. I see others here have good results as well.

If you are worried about salt content of the water you might consider Potassium Chloride in the softener. It does cost more but some prefer it.

[Jac@stafford.net]

See Emmett's post (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?71918-Water-Softeners-any-recommendations&p=684127&viewfull=1#post684127). I am of the very same opinion.

[Bella_Jeri]

You can check out the Water Softener Reviews (https://watergadget.com/best-water-softener-reviews) to get in detail information about the top recommended options available in the water softener category. We will provide you with the meaning of Best Water Softener according to us.

The best water softener is that system, which provides you with quality performance in less time. These water softener systems come in two types, one is salt-based and the other one is salt-less.

Salt-based will work effectively in reducing the hard water affects. Check out this Fleck Water Softener Reviews (https://watergadget.com/fleck-water-softener-reviews), since Fleck is the Top Most Recommended water softener brand by me.

Best of Luck,

Bella