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Professional
2-Feb-2011, 06:43
Hi again,
I am gonna get a new large format rather than my Speed Graphic Pacemaker and Crown Graphic, it is Shen Hao, but i have some quick questions:

1. What lens is supposed to be wide on large format? the camera i will order will come with 150mm, is this normal standard and what it is equivalent to 35mm or MF?

2. Is that Shen Hao has models where i can change the orientation of photo [Landscape/Portraits]?

3. If i buy any of those roll backs [6x9, 6x12,....] is that mean it turns to a medium format camera and using rolls?

4. What is the meaning of Fresnel?

5. The most important question here i ask is, how to load and unload the sheets in holder for shooting? and after unloading safely how i can store it until i send it to the lab and then how can the lab receive it for developing/processing? I have a changing bag[tent] if that can help.

6. from my first post asking about LF, i am trying to understand about the dark cloth, should it be of a special material or any cloth dark can do the job? I have a black long cloth of cotton not so thick, will it be sufficient?

7. I have a loupe from my cleaning kit [Visible Dust], is it good enough to be used with my large format or i should get something different?

8. Last but not least, what is the steps to start to shoot LF from setting the camera to unloading it?

Thanks,

Tareq

Jack Dahlgren
2-Feb-2011, 06:55
You will be well served by reading up on the topics from a good book. Steve Simmon's Using the View Camera (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0817463534?ie=UTF8&tag=masamikicom0c-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0817463534) is often recommended.

But briefly:
1) 150mm is normal. 110 or less is wide. 65 or less is super wide
2) I think so. Read the literature for them.
3) Yes, but you will still need to focus somehow which means taking off the back, looking at the ground glass then putting the back on and taking the picture. This is different from most medium format cameras which allow focusing and shooting rapidly while handheld.
4) A type of lens which is flat named after its inventor.It is used to bend the light back towards the camera operator resulting in a brighter image to view while focusing.
5) Here is how to load film holders: http://zo-d.com/stuff/photography/how-to-load-4x5-sheet-film-holders.html Put the film back in the box when you are done and send the box to the lab. Do this in complete darkness - using your changing bag will work.
6) You can use anything. People use tshirts, jackets, hands etc. All it needs to do is shade the ground glass enough for you to see well. Take your cloth out in the sun. Does a lot of light come through it? If so, find something else which is not so bright.
7) It depends on your eyesight. Should be a good start. Use it until it is not satisfactory.
8) Please buy the book linked to above. It really will help you more than posting questions here.

Robert Hughes
2-Feb-2011, 06:58
Hello, Pro. From your post we can't tell what size large format camera you're planning to get, but 4x5 is the most common. Here are some answers for your query:

1. A 150mm lens would be considered a normal angle taking lens (I use a 135mm lens on my 4x5, it's a little wide, which I like). Wide angle lenses for 4x5 are in the 90-110 mm range.
2. Shen Hao's web site (http://www.shen-hao.com/E45.html) listings appear partly broken right now. If you talk to somebody there, you might mention their site needs attention.
3. Roll film backs typically take 120 roll film, so the result is a medium format image.
4. Some manufacturers place a Fresnel lens on the ground glass view screen to focus light and brighten the image while adjusting framing and focus. Some people like to use them, others find the fresnel lines distracting and prefer to have a simple ground glass.
5. A sheet film holder needs to be loaded and unloaded in total darkness, but the technique isn't complicated - you just need a little practice. Follow the link to this tutorial (http://www.butzi.net/articles/filmload.htm), which demonstrates the process. (That's the first one I found while googling "sheet film holder loading", other tutorials are available on the web).
6. A dark cloth exists solely to keep the light off the ground glass so you can see what you're doing while adjusting the ground glass image. You can use any of a variety of materials (sometimes I use a coat, or a green felt sheet), as long as it's opaque enough for you to block out the daylight. Some people in hot, sunny environments prefer to have a dark cloth with a white outer side, so the sun doesn't bake the photographer as he adjusts his camera.
7. Your choice of loupes is a personal one. I use an old 50mm Nikkor lens from a 35mm camera, it does the job.
8. Steps to shooting LF:
- find something or somebody to photograph,
- setup the tripod and camera on a stable surface,
- with the dark cloth over you, open the view screen door and the lens shutter, and compose / frame / focus your scene,
- figure out your exposure and preferred depth of field requirements, and make the appropriate adjustments to the lens,
- place the sheet film holder on the camera. Close the lens shutter before you pull the dark slide,
- fire the shutter,
- reinsert the dark slide and remove the sheet film holder,
- prepare for the next shot. Repeat as needed.

That's LF photography in a nutshell. There is an almost bottomless well of information on the Internet, just use that search tool and you'll find more than you could ever get through. Also, there are over 150 years worth of books on just this subject; one series is the Ansel Adams trilogy (http://www.amazon.com/Camera-Ansel-Adams-Photography-Book/dp/0821221841) (The Camera / The Negative / The Print) which is still in print, readily available and pretty definitive; just about everybody on this forum has read through that series at one time or another.

Professional
2-Feb-2011, 10:04
Great, your posts answered almost the questions.

about the books i can't buy books at the moment as i saved to buy the gear, and the books are expensive to order as i live in the middle east and the shipping is costly for 1-2 books, and i have those Ansel Adams three books, i will give them a read even English is not my main language and i take so long time to read one book fully.

So it is like i must adjust or set the camera before i place the holder, is that to avoid any light leak or exposing the film while adjusting the camera? And closing the lens shutter which i have read here and somewhere else, what is the purpose of that?

Great to know about the lenses equivalent, so tell me, which lens for 4x5 i can get if i want something at 20-28mm FL of 35mm?

Robert, all the cameras i have is 4x5, even that i will order tomorrow i hope, but i am still planning to get that 8x10 since last year or even before the last year[2009], it is just a matter of time, and the steps you posted are very clear for me and if you answer my questions of this post it will help me more.

Also from your experiences people, which are good quality lenses you recommend me to use regardless of the FL? I will use different lenses for different purposed such as landscapes, archit., portraits,..., so i care more about the quality of the glass then i can choose which one for different applications.

Thanks again

Jack Dahlgren
2-Feb-2011, 10:17
Great, your posts answered almost the questions.

about the books i can't buy books at the moment as i saved to buy the gear, and the books are expensive to order as i live in the middle east and the shipping is costly for 1-2 books, and i have those Ansel Adams three books, i will give them a read even English is not my main language and i take so long time to read one book fully.

So it is like i must adjust or set the camera before i place the holder, is that to avoid any light leak or exposing the film while adjusting the camera? And closing the lens shutter which i have read here and somewhere else, what is the purpose of that?

Great to know about the lenses equivalent, so tell me, which lens for 4x5 i can get if i want something at 20-28mm FL of 35mm?

Robert, all the cameras i have is 4x5, even that i will order tomorrow i hope, but i am still planning to get that 8x10 since last year or even before the last year[2009], it is just a matter of time, and the steps you posted are very clear for me and if you answer my questions of this post it will help me more.

Also from your experiences people, which are good quality lenses you recommend me to use regardless of the FL? I will use different lenses for different purposed such as landscapes, archit., portraits,..., so i care more about the quality of the glass then i can choose which one for different applications.

Thanks again

Adjusting the camera before placing the holder is done so that you can see the image on the ground glass at the back of the camera. When it is the way you like, the film holder is inserted underneath the ground glass (which usually is attached with springs to allow this) then the slide is pulled on the holder, then the shutter is tripped. Then the slide is put in to cover the film. Then the holder is removed.

a 90mm lens would be the best choice as equivalent to 20-28mm and is probably the most commonly used wide angle.

The quality of almost all lenses in the past 30 or even 40 years is sufficient. You will not have a problem if your choose from Schneider, Rodenstock, Fuji, Nikon or rebranded versions of those lenses (Caltar for example). There are minor differences between them, but I suggest that the lens quality of any of these will not limit the quality of your photographs.

Bob Kerner
2-Feb-2011, 10:20
There is a fantastic amount of information on this page

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/

Work through the links. They cover almost everything you could possibly want to know. Asking about which lens brand to get is like asking what type of car to drive. You could spend a lifetime exploring the brands. I think most people would agree that any modern lens from Schneider, Fuji, Nikon, Rodenstock will serve you well.

Professional
2-Feb-2011, 10:36
I got it, it is then all brands doing well in term of quality, i just asked as i thought maybe there are some lenses better than others so noticeably, but if they all are similar and give good satisfactory quality then i am not worry to buy any on different focal length.

But i would like to know if you have a link where i can read more about lenses because there are different version of same lens focal length, for example the camera i will order tomorrow i hope will come with Rodenstock APO-Sironar NNNNN, so what is the different between N and S models of Rodenstock? I think Schneider have different models of same focal length maybe and even the price is different of same focal length.

And sorry for that i am very lazy to search, but i am sure there is a link or website which can demonstrate or show a diagram or sheet or table of the focal length equivalents between LF and MF or 35mm, this will help me a bit to know which lenses i can get for LF of different usage.

Robert Hughes
2-Feb-2011, 11:48
Here's your chart: Focal length conversion (http://www.viewcamera.com/images/focalchart.gif) between formats:

Professional
2-Feb-2011, 13:21
Here's your chart: Focal length conversion (http://www.viewcamera.com/images/focalchart.gif) between formats:

Thank you very much!

Lachlan 717
2-Feb-2011, 13:23
Pro,

Make sure to get onto YouTube. There are many videos on using view cameras, including loading film, using movements and processing.

Nothing like seeing these things done, rather than reading...

Professional
2-Feb-2011, 14:15
I forgot to ask, i have a Really Right Stuff bullhead, so i want to know which plate i can get for my Speed and Crown Graphic cameras? any idea please?

Professional
2-Feb-2011, 14:16
Pro,

Make sure to get onto YouTube. There are many videos on using view cameras, including loading film, using movements and processing.

Nothing like seeing these things done, rather than reading...

Yes, i do that, and true, i can learn and understand much faster by watching than by reading.

Professional
2-Feb-2011, 23:18
Also would like to ask, how many holders you people have? I mean do you take 20 or 50 holders for you or you just take 2-3 for 4-6 shots and do that again later?

In fact i ordered 3 film holders used so i can have 6 sheets, i ordered another large format yesterday or lets say today morning after yesterday midnight, it included the 2 holders, so i can have 10 sheets, i was planning to shoot 5-10 with large format when i use it per day, not willing to shoot more than 10 or 12 sheets in one day, but is it fine to have that much of holders just in case? and can i use my lightweight changing bag to load/unload sheets in locations?

Professional
2-Feb-2011, 23:19
Last question i swear, can someone link me where i can buy a new small mechanical or without battery Light Meter please?

Jack Dahlgren
3-Feb-2011, 08:58
Also would like to ask, how many holders you people have? I mean do you take 20 or 50 holders for you or you just take 2-3 for 4-6 shots and do that again later?

In fact i ordered 3 film holders used so i can have 6 sheets, i ordered another large format yesterday or lets say today morning after yesterday midnight, it included the 2 holders, so i can have 10 sheets, i was planning to shoot 5-10 with large format when i use it per day, not willing to shoot more than 10 or 12 sheets in one day, but is it fine to have that much of holders just in case? and can i use my lightweight changing bag to load/unload sheets in locations?

I have about 30 holders, but usually only carry 5-10. This is because I don't develop very often so a number of them will have exposed film sitting in them waiting to be developed.

As for a mechanical light meter, look at ebay. Weston Master meters are battery free and pretty solid. Should be able to buy one (or two or three...) for less than the cost of a box of film.

Professional
3-Feb-2011, 09:24
I have about 30 holders, but usually only carry 5-10. This is because I don't develop very often so a number of them will have exposed film sitting in them waiting to be developed.

As for a mechanical light meter, look at ebay. Weston Master meters are battery free and pretty solid. Should be able to buy one (or two or three...) for less than the cost of a box of film.

Thank you very much!

John Kasaian
3-Feb-2011, 10:31
If you are developing your own film, three holders is a good place to start. Add more when you come across deals, or need them for shoots requiring more film.

What lenses do you already have on your Graphics? A lot of vintage glass is very desireable. For wide lenses on 4x5, consider a 90mm Super Angulon for architecture, or something like a 120mm Angulon/Super Angulon/Nikon W or 135mm WF Ektar for landscapes.

John Kasaian
3-Feb-2011, 10:37
With old Westons you need to remember that the measurement for illumination sometimes needs to be converted. If you get A Weston Master IV or newer you'll be better off in that regard. I think they are still being manufactured in the Netherlands (Euromaster???) That might be worth checking out as the only place I know that rebuilds the old Westons is Quality Light Metric in Hollywood California. If you need to get an ebay purchase worked on, the shipping to Hollywood alone might have bought you a new model. Just sayin'

banjo
3-Feb-2011, 12:19
will as to the ?? film holders do I have,, maybe 100+
BUT how minty do I use ! I all ways load 13 at a time
Will 12 & 1/2 as to use the packet of 25
But if I am going out to a place that I am not planing
to ever go Back To I take about 36 Holders 12 with B&W
12 with E6 & then 12 with C41 that way I can pick & choose
BUT as sheet film is getting harder to get this will change how
I go about shoting anyway

NOW as far as to a meter I like my Pentax Spotmeter
but one with NO batterys Sekonic Studio Deluxe L-398

Banjo

Lachlan 717
3-Feb-2011, 13:10
I started with 5 holders as many films come in 10 sheet boxes. In that way, I can load a whole box and store the holders in the fridge.

Professional
3-Feb-2011, 13:59
If you are developing your own film, three holders is a good place to start. Add more when you come across deals, or need them for shoots requiring more film.

What lenses do you already have on your Graphics? A lot of vintage glass is very desireable. For wide lenses on 4x5, consider a 90mm Super Angulon for architecture, or something like a 120mm Angulon/Super Angulon/Nikon W or 135mm WF Ektar for landscapes.

I develop only MF films now, but i think i should try to develop LF sheets as well, so i will look at the tanks to do that, and if my MF tanks can do the job i have to read the steps even someone posted the steps but i feel i didn't understand it yet. But what is developing going to do with the number of the holders? You mean if i develop a lot then i can shoot a lot so i need many holders? I have 4 MF rolls that are waiting to be developed but i got busy and lazy last months to do, i developed just one about 2 weeks ago, i may do another 1-2 later.

The only lens i have now for my SG/CG is Graflex Optar 162mm f4.5, and the Shen Hao will come with Rodenstock APO-Sironar N-150mm, so i am looking to buy something so wide like in 70-80mm range, and later i will add 210mm or a bit longer as i don't want the gap to be narrow, so if i get that 75 for example then i can be in 20-22mm range, the 162,150 will cover 45-50mm[35mm equiv.], so all what i need is something at equiv. of 70-100mm for large format.



With old Westons you need to remember that the measurement for illumination sometimes needs to be converted. If you get A Weston Master IV or newer you'll be better off in that regard. I think they are still being manufactured in the Netherlands (Euromaster???) That might be worth checking out as the only place I know that rebuilds the old Westons is Quality Light Metric in Hollywood California. If you need to get an ebay purchase worked on, the shipping to Hollywood alone might have bought you a new model. Just sayin'

I found one Sekonic light meter free-battery, not sure if it will be handy, but i will read about it more, in fact i have expensive light meter which is Sekonic but the battery is killing me if it runs out during a shooting session.

Professional
3-Feb-2011, 14:05
will as to the ?? film holders do I have,, maybe 100+
BUT how minty do I use ! I all ways load 13 at a time
Will 12 & 1/2 as to use the packet of 25
But if I am going out to a place that I am not planing
to ever go Back To I take about 36 Holders 12 with B&W
12 with E6 & then 12 with C41 that way I can pick & choose
BUT as sheet film is getting harder to get this will change how
I go about shoting anyway

NOW as far as to a meter I like my Pentax Spotmeter
but one with NO batterys Sekonic Studio Deluxe L-398

Banjo

and why in said that i will not shoot a lot of LF because of that i shoot digital with Canon DSLRs and with Hasselblad expensive which blowing my mind, and i have some film MF as well, so all those will not help me to shoot LF for a while, but i still interested to shoot larger formats than 35mm, i rarely use 35mm for my personal work since i got into MF, and will see when i will start to shoot LF, in all cases i don't know why i asked this question, once i see myself shoot a lot of sheets then i definitely will get many holders, i have 3 now and 2 is coming the way, will add 3-5 more than i will have 10 holders for 20 sheets, i shoot MF 1-2 rolls per day, in my country nothing much here that i have to burn more than 50 frames, and i think a lot before i press one click even with digital.

Yes, i saw that Sekonic model

Professional
3-Feb-2011, 14:07
I started with 5 holders as many films come in 10 sheet boxes. In that way, I can load a whole box and store the holders in the fridge.

In fact i am looking to store the holders in the fridge, but i bought a bag that is used for film protection up to 1600 speed, i heard some told me it is not good enough, but at least it can block something, if it can't protect 1600 it may do with 100-400.

John Kasaian
3-Feb-2011, 14:26
I develop only MF films now, but i think i should try to develop LF sheets as well, so i will look at the tanks to do that, and if my MF tanks can do the job i have to read the steps even someone posted the steps but i feel i didn't understand it yet. But what is developing going to do with the number of the holders? You mean if i develop a lot then i can shoot a lot so i need many holders? I have 4 MF rolls that are waiting to be developed but i got busy and lazy last months to do, i developed just one about 2 weeks ago, i may do another 1-2 later.

The only lens i have now for my SG/CG is Graflex Optar 162mm f4.5, and the Shen Hao will come with Rodenstock APO-Sironar N-150mm, so i am looking to buy something so wide like in 70-80mm range, and later i will add 210mm or a bit longer as i don't want the gap to be narrow, so if i get that 75 for example then i can be in 20-22mm range, the 162,150 will cover 45-50mm[35mm equiv.], so all what i need is something at equiv. of 70-100mm for large format.




I found one Sekonic light meter free-battery, not sure if it will be handy, but i will read about it more, in fact i have expensive light meter which is Sekonic but the battery is killing me if it runs out during a shooting session.

If you want to know what it's like to have your light meter "killing" you, get three or four of them together and notice all the different readings for the same metered scene---which one to believe?
Keep a spare battery handy for the meter you do have and spend your money on sheet film instead.

If your 162mm Optar is a Wollensak as I'd suspect, it is likely the same animal as the Wollensak 162mm Velostigmats & Raptars and that would be a very fine 4x5 lens indeed---nice bokeh wide open and tack sharp when stopped down.

Learn how to use what you have before spending money like a drunken sailor!
Just sayin'

Professional
3-Feb-2011, 14:35
If you want to know what it's like to have your light meter "killing" you, get three or four of them together and notice all the different readings for the same metered scene---which one to believe?
Keep a spare battery handy for the meter you do have and spend your money on sheet film instead.

If your 162mm Optar is a Wollensak as I'd suspect, it is likely the same animal as the Wollensak 162mm Velostigmats & Raptars and that would be a very fine 4x5 lens indeed---nice bokeh wide open and tack sharp when stopped down.

Learn how to use what you have before spending money like a drunken sailor!
Just sayin'

Don't worry about spending money, i spent money on digital Hasselblad and i ended up with 5 or 6 film MF and all are great except that Mamiya 7II is not working due to a problem in the camera or the only one lens i have, so will send it for repair, but i am so happy with all my MF cameras, and about LF, i am sure just i start once then i want to get 5 another, i ask a lot of questions because when i start i start very good and less mistakes, and once i do it properly then it will be like drinking water, so spending the money is just matter of time, i spend money and a experiment on the other hand, just i try to get something before it is discontinued, those manufacturer will not wait me to master something, i was hopping to use more films but some are gone, and i was looking to get 8x10 or larger before most of those manufacturers decide to dismiss those LF/ULF cameras as well, and my worst worst habit is that i don't like to buy used 98% of the time.

Professional
3-Feb-2011, 14:36
And yes, it is Wollensak, i bought it used ;) so i am sure the owner knows which lens to get.

Professional
3-Feb-2011, 14:39
I was going to get Speed Graphic with Xenar lens, but it had gone, then found another without lens, then found Crown Graphic with this ottar, so i bought first SG without lens, then CG to use the lens on both, and i am done with 4x5, i have 2 and 1 is coming, will give them a shoot those coming weeks as the weather is helping here now, but i got busy since my dad passed away on 27th Dec and another relative dead today, so when the time permit i will be hungry to break my LFs.

Lachlan 717
3-Feb-2011, 14:40
In fact i am looking to store the holders in the fridge, but i bought a bag that is used for film protection up to 1600 speed, i heard some told me it is not good enough, but at least it can block something, if it can't protect 1600 it may do with 100-400.

That's for X-Ray protection, not refrigeration.

You use these bags for transporting film through airports and, more importantly, once you're up in the sky. (Your film is exposed to more radiation whilst at altitude than when going through the X-Ray scanner, a point that is often overlooked. People have their film manually inspected, but then don't shield it in-flight).

As for the fridge, I keep my holders in Zip Lock plastic bags. This practice also helps to minimise dust getting into the holders.

Professional
3-Feb-2011, 14:49
That's for X-Ray protection, not refrigeration.

You use these bags for transporting film through airports and, more importantly, once you're up in the sky. (Your film is exposed to more radiation whilst at altitude than when going through the X-Ray scanner, a point that is often overlooked. People have their film manually inspected, but then don't shield it in-flight).

As for the fridge, I keep my holders in Zip Lock plastic bags. This practice also helps to minimise dust getting into the holders.

Good idea, i will look at those Zip-lock bags, sure i need them for storage sheets or whatever film.

Thanks!

Professional
3-Feb-2011, 14:57
My first LF baby, just the lens[with board] was from the second purchase.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3407/1ds39730.jpg

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3351/1ds39732.jpg

Professional
8-Feb-2011, 05:38
Finally my toy has been ARRIVED, it is here, my first NEW 4x5 large format and the third one if considering the USED one before.

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7200/shenhao1.jpg

http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/9639/shenhao2.jpg

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9885/shenhao3.jpg

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/3738/shenhao4.jpg

Professional
8-Feb-2011, 05:39
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/4314/shenhao5.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2797/shenhao6.jpg

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/9545/shenhao7.jpg

Professional
8-Feb-2011, 05:39
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/1627/shenhao9.jpg

http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/9972/shenhao10.jpg

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1340/shenhao8.jpg

Professional
8-Feb-2011, 05:40
I think this camera will see lots of fun for now, i hope, just i have to learn about movements and i will go.

Tervuren
8-Feb-2011, 06:14
hi there, just out of curiosity what language do you speak ? as there are many none English speaking guys are here who may be able to help you in your mother tongue . :)

Professional
8-Feb-2011, 06:30
hi there, just out of curiosity what language do you speak ? as there are many none English speaking guys are here who may be able to help you in your mother tongue . :)

Arabic.

Robert Hughes
8-Feb-2011, 12:07
Wow that looks great. Now get out there and show us what it'll do!

Professional
8-Feb-2011, 13:47
Wow that looks great. Now get out there and show us what it'll do!

I will, the problem is that i will get busy this week, tomorrow will have a workshop, after tomorrow so crowded, i hope Friday or Saturday it will be a good time, but if you want to see my house indoor then i can do that anytime soon.