Processing 8*10 film in Print drum; stange streaks..

[Cor]

I have always been processing my 8*10 film in a print drum and never had below problem.
Let me first give the details:

8*10 HP5+ exposed at 200 ASA, processed in PyrocatHD; either as 10:10:500ml (for 2 films) for 10 minutes for N and 15 minutes for N+1 (totally empirical found figures).

In a Jobo CPE2 at 22degC, slowest rotation setting. Using a 2850 print drum, which takes 2 films.

Below is one extreme example, in the sense that the light was very flat (snow and mist) , I used a N+1 here, and printed it on VC FB Grade 5:

http://members.casema.nl/cordieuwke/BoompjesMorra2010.jpg

And a more detailed look here (used Photoshop to exaggerate it):

http://members.casema.nl/cordieuwke/DetailMorraBoompjes.jpg

As you can probably see there are some weird slightly higer density streaks in the sky, and a small band on both short sides which are stronger developed.

I realise that this an extreme case with this N=1 and grade 5 print, nevertheless I have seen the same thing (less strong) in N processed sheets under more normal light, on the other hand: from the same series are this (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=678451&postcount=53) and this (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showpost.php?p=678468&postcount=54) one, which do not show said effect (although these examples are portrait orientation, that should not matter, they are perhaps more "busy" than a featureless sky).

I do not understand how this is happening, AFAIK this is not bromide drag, what you see when you have a deep shadow next to a strongly exposed sky and a almost exhausted developer.

I did switch from a 1:1:100 to a 2:2:100 dilution of PyrocatHD because the amount of active developer is (too) low at 1:1:100 it seems. Cannot see why that should cause these streaks.

Solutions could be:

Tray development: rather not please..

Buy a bigger Jobo and a 3000 series tank..space and money are the problem here..

I do have a Patterson Orbital, but only 1 sheet at the time, and not temperate control and that handy Jobo lift..

Maybe I should slightly tilt the print drum every minute or so, not so much that the developer flow out of the hose, but enough to mix "horizontally


Suggestions more than welcome,

thanks,

Best,

Cor

[domaz]

How much solution are you using overall? Two 8x10s in one print drum would probably need more than 150ml or whatever is labeled on the 2850.

[Jim Noel]

I assume the film lays in the drum so the ribs are running across the 8" width.
1. With 160 sg inches of film and a 2:2:100 dilution you will need a full liter of developer to prevent developer exhaustion.
2. Have you ever put Kodak Photo Flo in the drum? if so that is a major cause of the streaks. It builds up along the ribs over time and becomes a catalyst. This used to be a common cause of streaks with hangers.
3. Do you pre-soak? If not the film may not be getting developer incorporated evenly.

4. I would try scrubbing the inside of the drum with hot soap and water, then 3 or 4 good rinses in hot water before you use it again.

I hopeone or more of these are of assistance.

Jim

[Cor]

I assume the film lays in the drum so the ribs are running across the 8" width.
1. With 160 sg inches of film and a 2:2:100 dilution you will need a full liter of developer to prevent developer exhaustion.
2. Have you ever put Kodak Photo Flo in the drum? if so that is a major cause of the streaks. It builds up along the ribs over time and becomes a catalyst. This used to be a common cause of streaks with hangers.
3. Do you pre-soak? If not the film may not be getting developer incorporated evenly.

4. I would try scrubbing the inside of the drum with hot soap and water, then 3 or 4 good rinses in hot water before you use it again.

I hopeone or more of these are of assistance.

Jim

hi Jim,

I use a 5 minutes pre-soak with 500ml distilled water.

I use a total volume of 500 ml with added to that 10ml A and 10 ml B. I used to run 2 sheets in 5:5:500 but I got the idea that that amount was too little (some films came out thin, but not always, and I got confirmed about that (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=70429&highlight=cor). at the higher dilution the spend developer came out quite dark, now it came out almost clear, I guess a sign it hadn't be used up to the max I guess.

I do ran photo flow through the tank, but at a much lower concentration (by heart about 0.1 ml per 250ml water plus some iso-propanol).

I'll give the tank a good scrub,

Thanks,

Cor

[Chauncey Walden]

I had trouble with pyro developer in a ribbed print drum and also with the old Jobo film sheaths that had the little bumps to support the film. Extra density would build up over the ribs and over the bumps. No problems with Rodinal. The solution with pyro, barring a tray, was a 3005 on a motor base.

[sanking]

I had trouble with pyro developer in a ribbed print drum and also with the old Jobo film sheaths that had the little bumps to support the film. Extra density would build up over the ribs and over the bumps. No problems with Rodinal. The solution with pyro, barring a tray, was a 3005 on a motor base.

There is a long history of problems of this type when developing in print drums, and it is not limited to pyro developers though, though they are perhaps more prone to it. The problem is exactly what Chauncey describes, the ribs cause the developer to accelerate as it approaches them and this results in density build up. How regular it is depends on the nature of rotation.

Paradoxically the problem may be that that the solution is too strong. Years ago people had this same problem when developing in print drums with D76 and found that the solution was to switch to a 1:2 or 1:3 dilution, and voila the problem went away. I think that is worth trying here, i.e. instead of 1+1+100 try 1+1+150, or even 1+1+200. And BTW, 300 ml of the 1+1+100 dilution of Pyrocat-HD is enough solution for one 8X10 sheet, so 600 ml for the two sheets should be fine. All of my developer times for Pyrocat-HD were calculated based on 75 ml of the 1+1+100 dilution per 4X5 sheet, and 4X that is 300 ml.

A second way of attacking the problem is to make sure and lift the drum soon after you begin development and lift it up and down at the two ends. This is sometimes needed to counteract the tendency of the the continuous horizontal motion agitation to cause bromide drag.

Sandy King

[Greg Blank]

Ah but the ribs do not run in the direction of the surges. As he would be placing the film into the drum the surges should be horizontal. What we are seeing is a failure to prewarm and prewet and or a non level drum coupled with an agressive developer.

A prewarm then a prewet may also help.

Sandy- Not saying though what you said has no merit, merely that it is a partial answer.

To the "OP" are you using bi-directional or singe directional spinning with that drum?


There is a long history of problems of this type when developing in print drums, and it is not limited to pyro developers though, though they are perhaps more prone to it. The problem is exactly what Chauncey describes, the ribs cause the developer to accelerate as it approaches them and this results in density build up. How regular it is depends on the nature of rotation.

Paradoxically the problem may be that that the solution is too strong. Years ago people had this same problem when developing in print drums with D76 and found that the solution was to switch to a 1:2 or 1:3 dilution, and voila the problem went away. I think that is worth trying here, i.e. instead of 1+1+100 try 1+1+150, or even 1+1+200. And BTW, 300 ml of the 1+1+100 dilution of Pyrocat-HD is enough solution for one 8X10 sheet, so 600 ml for the two sheets should be fine. All of my developer times for Pyrocat-HD were calculated based on 75 ml of the 1+1+100 dilution per 4X5 sheet, and 4X that is 300 ml.

A second way of attacking the problem is to make sure and lift the drum soon after you begin development and lift it up and down at the two ends. This is sometimes needed to counteract the tendency of the the continuous horizontal motion agitation to cause bromide drag.

Sandy King

[Greg Blank]

Ok I rethought this problem based on Sandy's two below paragraphs. See what you all think. As the drum rotates the grooves allow the developer to move from one end to the other of the drum. & when the grooves ajacent to the bottom negative pass 90 degrees of the negative edge there is a drip forming that is being channeled at those surge marks.

Try slowing down your rotation speed to it slowest setting and increase the developer amount so that there is a cushion of liquid covering the negative surface which needs to always face into the drum,...emulsion not against the drum wall.




. The problem is exactly what Chauncey describes, the ribs cause the developer to accelerate as it approaches them and this results in density build up. How regular it is depends on the nature of rotation.

A second way of attacking the problem is to make sure and lift the drum soon after you begin development and lift it up and down at the two ends. This is sometimes needed to counteract the tendency of the the continuous horizontal motion agitation to cause bromide drag.

Sandy King

[Cor]

Greg,

Thanks for thinking along..

To clarify: I use a 5 minutes pre wash in the Jobo CPE-2 at 22degC. I use the slowest rotation setting (35 rpm?), bi-directional. This should be more than enough for pre-warming and pre-wetting.

The surge marks are indeed at a 90deg angle to the ribs, which run length wise along the drum (these ribs are not really high, I guess about 2-3 mm, I am really surprised that they cause these marks).

I do think that Sandy has given me the suggestion to solve this problem. I switched to a stronger developer out of fear of using too little stock.

I hope to test this coming weekend: I plan to expose 2 sheets HP5+ (outdated with a high B+F), object will be a black statue against a white sky.

I'll go back to 1:1:100, total volume 600ml (max for the CPE-2 but sufficient developer)
and see if I will have the surge marks again or not like in my first post.

I'll Keep you all updated,

Thanks for all the feedback,

Cor

[Robert Hughes]

Yep, those are streaks alright. I've seem similar streaks on x-ray film, resulting from developer starvation. Work on improving developer circulation, and the problem will be in your past.

[mandoman7]

Is this a situation that would benefit from going back to the 2 direction rotation? And also, I'm surprised to hear that the temperature might be a factor. In what way does that affect the streaking?


Ok I rethought this problem based on Sandy's two below paragraphs. See what you all think. As the drum rotates the grooves allow the developer to move from one end to the other of the drum. & when the grooves ajacent to the bottom negative pass 90 degrees of the negative edge there is a drip forming that is being channeled at those surge marks.

Try slowing down your rotation speed to it slowest setting and increase the developer amount so that there is a cushion of liquid covering the negative surface which needs to always face into the drum,...emulsion not against the drum wall.

[Cor]

Ok,

So I tested my system again, shot 2 sheets of (outdated) HP5+, one at the correct exposure and 1 one stop over. Of a small wooden black statue against a evenly lit light grey sky.

I processed again in my Jobo CPE-2 in print drum 2850 (both films), going back at the 1:1:100 dilution again, this time total volume 600 ml.

It helped but not completely abolished the streaks. Both negatives, when held up to the light show the streaks, but not as strong as my first example.

When contact printed they show up in the sky of the 1 stop overexposed negative, but not on the correctly exposed one (this is on VC paper, grade 2 1/2).

I did not get the extra density on both short sides of the negatives as can be seen in the first post of mine.

So switching back to less strong developer helped indeed, I did not try tilting the tank in between, want to find out step by step.

I guess I am all right when processing "busy" subjects, but vast even white spaces like fog, even sky etc should be avoided it seems. I checked my previous negatives, these are all more "busy" and I cannot find streaks there (obscured by the details I assume)

Time to dig out the Patterson Orbital, see if that is a solution in above circumstances


Best,

Cor

[Rory_5244]

I get streaks too sometimes when developing Delta 100 8x10 in a 2830 print drum (HC-110 developer). It didn't happen in the past with Tri-X Pan or FP4+ so I thought it was the film. I developed a neg this weekend and there were no streaks this time so I have no idea.

[Cor]

So the "final" update:

I shot a sheet of outdated HP5+ (8*10) at 200 asa, a quick studio portrait of my eldest son, 1 flash unit pointed at him, no diffusion whatsoever against a strong light a white softbox with Tungsten lights. Symmar 300mm at f16, 1/30 sec.

Processed in Pyrocat-HD 1:1:100 (300ml) in a Paterson Orbital at 20degC for 17:30 min. on a rotating device.

I do not see any steaks nor in print nor at looking at the negative, so it seems I have my streaks problem solved..

Here are 2 prints, I ran out of 8*10 paper:


http://members.casema.nl/cordieuwke/Wytze8x10.jpg

http://members.casema.nl/cordieuwke/Wytze8x10Hoek.jpg


Best,

Cor