Lens for jewelry photography [Archive] - Large Format Photography Forum

Markethej

26-Jan-2011, 07:05

I am currently putting together a camera to be used for jewelry photography. I am starting with a Horseman 450. I'm going to use a manufactured back plate in order to mount a Canon 5D II. Now for the lens. The Schneider 150 G-Claron has been recommended and is a very economical choice either with or without a shutter. I don't need a shutter in the lens since I will be using the focal plane shutter in the camera. I understand that this lens was designed as a "copy" or "process" lens and is tack sharp; this is good. The question is that since this lens is designed for 1:1 reproduction, how will it perform at higher magnifications? A diamond ring for example will need to fill 2/3 of the vertical frame. Is this a good lens for this use or should I bite the bullet and drop the cash on a designated "macro"?

Replies much appreciated as long as they aren't comments about my sanity.

Gem Singer

26-Jan-2011, 08:09

The Nikon/Nikkor f5.6 -AM ED 120 was designed for the type of close-up photography you are planning on doing.

There was one for sale on this forum recently.

(By all means, "bite the bullet". You won't be sorry that you did)

David Aimone

26-Jan-2011, 08:36

My understanding is the G-Claron is good for 2-dimensional work, but the Nikkor would be better for 3-dimensional subjects?

Dan Fromm

26-Jan-2011, 10:24

My understanding is the G-Claron is good for 2-dimensional work, but the Nikkor would be better for 3-dimensional subjects?

Stuff and nonsense! Lens designers try to design lenses that image a plane on to a plane.

According to Schneider (see http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/archiv/pdf/gcn.pdf) G-Clarons are intended for use between 1:5 and 5:1. They're usable, not too bad, at all distances.

I've had a 150/9 G-Claron, sold it. Still have a 150/9 Apo-Ronar. At distance the Apo-Ronar was better. OP, your used lens may be better than my used lens. Or worse.

OP, it sounds like you'll be shooting around 3:1 - 6:1. Ain't easy, requires exacting technique. To learn about the technique, buy a copy of Lester Lefkowitz' book The Manual of Closeup Photography. Don't spend money on lenses until you've read the book and thought hard for a while.

Drew Wiley

26-Jan-2011, 12:51

The G-Claron will be decent and at the same time usable for a wide range of work, even at infinity. But it will not be equal at 1:1 or greater magnification to a dedicated
macro lens, which will be good only at macro and cost way more. Folks who specialize
in shooting tiny jewelery will invest in the latter. Probably won't make much difference
for a small web of postcard ad for jewelery, but with more serious enlargement, it
certainly will.

Sevo

26-Jan-2011, 13:03

First of all, invest in building a tabletop studio rig. Way before the difference between a G-Claron and dedicated macro lens become visible you'll have to battle vibration and get the stuff well lit.

argos33

26-Jan-2011, 13:20

I have the same setup except using a Wista SP. I found with high magnifications a 150mm lens will use a lot of bellows, but for the Horseman it should be ok.

I have used Repro-Clarons at high magnifications with very good results. Also enlarging lenses can work very well too if used correctly. Some perform much better reverse-mounted.

As Dan and Sevo point out, there are a lot of challenges with macro work but the advantage of the DSLR back is that you can experiment and see what is working much quicker than film. Also, if your planning on using primarily the DSLR than there is no need for a shutter on the lens - which means you can try various barrel lenses for cheap. If none of them are up to your standards/usability then maybe try renting a dedicated macro lens and compare.

Henry Ambrose

26-Jan-2011, 14:41

I have to ask.....

Why not a Canon TS 90mm lens?

Ramiro Elena

26-Jan-2011, 15:20

I have to ask.....

Why not a Canon TS 90mm lens?

Yeah, me too. Or even a nice macro lens such as the Nikkor 105mm or its Canon equivalent. Why is it TS capability important in this case? I've done some jewelry shooting for my wife and found lighting more important, besides getting truly close to the piece.

Ed Richards

26-Jan-2011, 15:49

TS can be useful if you are doing mini-still life jewelery shots. No LF lens is going to come close to being as sharp in this situation as the 90mm TS, esp. when you factor in that the 4x5 camera is WAY too coarse in its movements to really line things up for 5D II levels of precision. I would blow off the movements and get a cheap Canon 100mm macro if cost is the reason you are considering this. It will still way out perform any LF lens for this sort of work.

Of course, you could just use a piece of 4x5 film in that camera and blow away the 5D II.:-)

ic-racer

26-Jan-2011, 16:11

I presume you are wanting to do some wide open stuff with odd focal plane shifts, in which case a faster lens may be better. There are a number of f5.6 150mm lenses.

Markethej

26-Jan-2011, 19:50

Thanks for all the replies. The 90mm t/s is a great lens only it doesn't allow me to get close enough. I have the 180mm macro Canon and it is an excellent lens. I know of at least one other photographer who has created a camera like this and using a APO enlarging lens feels that the image quality is better and also you have the ability to manipulate focus with the camera movements. I'm hoping that with the geared movements of the horseman I will be able to affect greater DOF. Plus, it is a kit I can build upon, eventually using a scan back which is what the big boys are doing.

el french

26-Jan-2011, 20:00

The Canon MP-e 65mm lens would be my first choice, but you couldn't use it on the Horseman, so no movements. A reversed enlarger lens may give you better resolution and it should be fairly easy to find or build an adaptor to the lens board. http://www.photomacrography.net would be a good place to ask questions about macro lens.

Here's a link to a few images of my macro studio setup: http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v649/etfrench/Macro%20Pano%20Head/ It does focus stacked macro panoramas and a typical final image may contain 1000 individual images. Not exactly what you would want to do with film :)

I've just started experimenting with a 4X5 camera, but I don't expect to be able to create the same types of images as with the DSLR.

Chokourov

10-Dec-2012, 16:17

Markethej
Did yousucceedd in building your setup for this project any results?I'mIm building similar system and have made some shots with Sinar PX plus Canon 5D Mark2 and Macro sironar 210 5.4
85233
Also experimenting with Scanning back discussion in - see my posts

aluncrockford

10-Dec-2012, 17:24

To be honest all you need is a macro 55 nikon ais with a eos adaptor, mucking about with adaptor plates and large format lenses is a waste of time and effort, the quality of that lens will be unsurpassed using that camera. Obviously if you were shooting 5x4 that would be a different matter but as your not, KISS ( keep it simple )

Thom Bennett

10-Dec-2012, 18:09

We do this day in and day out:

http://www.rauantiques.com/jewelry/diamonds/?&fq=PRI_CAT%3AWEB.JEWELRY&rows=15&start=0&sort=score%20desc,Price%20desc&crumbs=Stone:Diamonds&fq=Stone:Diamonds&crumbTypeJewelry=diamonds&follow=no

We use LEAF Medium Format Digital backs mounted on Sinar P2's, Rodenstock APO lenses. For us, the most important thing is that the MFD backs don't have an aliasing filter and, therefore, provide a clarity that a 35mm digital camera can't begin to compare to. We're using them tethered and have Live View which, on our screens, provides almost an 8x10 image to focus and manipulate. And, as others have mentioned, lighting is key. Good luck! Jewelry is quite challenging.

Tom Monego

10-Dec-2012, 19:21

The Nikkor apo 120 is an amazing lens, I used it for medical micro instrument photography. At 1:1 and going up to 2:1 you have to watch your movements but the swings and tilts can give you the DOF you need, also a 2x3 back helps with the movements. Macro with 4x5 is also amazing. If you have enough bellow movements then look into a 210 apo macro. Nikon had one that wasn't that available, the Rodenstock Apo-Sironar or maybe it ws the Macro-Sironar will give you all the movements you need. With 4x5 at 1:1 you really have to watch dust, can really get in the way. I'm on the road and don't have an image from this set up on this computer.

Tom

Bruce Pottorff

10-Dec-2012, 22:19

PM me if you are interested in my never-used Nikkor AM ED 120 at a reasonable price.

Daniel Stone

10-Dec-2012, 23:33

What about using an apo enlarging lens reversed? Or get a short FL apo process lens, like a 4" red dot artar and jury rig it to a bellows setup...

Chokourov

11-Dec-2012, 03:28

Thom
I had a look rauAntiquess.com Some business you work for, can you please be more specific on the lens and back you use forjeweleryy? Very good DOF is it stacking? What lighting techniques, is it studio flash or continuouse?
If you don't mind shearing of cause.
On my sample I used 3 X HID 150W with Bowen's 60x 60 soft-boxes for main and fill plus 20degree honeycombmbe add 2f ND through transparentent table.

I also have 200mp scanning back with I only lerning how to use if anyone have used Kigamo 8000 and feel like share experience?

We do this day in and day out:

http://www.rauantiques.com/jewelry/diamonds/?&fq=PRI_CAT%3AWEB.JEWELRY&rows=15&start=0&sort=score%20desc,Price%20desc&crumbs=Stone:Diamonds&fq=Stone:Diamonds&crumbTypeJewelry=diamonds&follow=no

We use LEAF Medium Format Digital backs mounted on Sinar P2's, Rodenstock APO lenses. For us, the most important thing is that the MFD backs don't have an aliasing filter and, therefore, provide a clarity that a 35mm digital camera can't begin to compare to. We're using them tethered and have Live View which, on our screens, provides almost an 8x10 image to focus and manipulate. And, as others have mentioned, lighting is key. Good luck! Jewelry is quite challenging.

hiend61

11-Dec-2012, 07:34

Yeah, me too. Or even a nice macro lens such as the Nikkor 105mm or its Canon equivalent. Why is it TS capability important in this case? I've done some jewelry shooting for my wife and found lighting more important, besides getting truly close to the piece.

Because a 90 TS lens due to its tilt capability can improve deep of field and still use a reasonable F stop. Remember that in digital photography difracction takes it`s toll much worse than with film.

Anyway Canon TS 90 is a super sharp lens that works flawlesly in macro with extension tubes. Is a much better lens to use in a digital DSLR camera than any LF lens.

Thom Bennett

11-Dec-2012, 08:32

"Thom
I had a look rauAntiquess.com Some business you work for, can you please be more specific on the lens and back you use forjeweleryy? Very good DOF is it stacking? What lighting techniques, is it studio flash or continuouse?"

Generally we use a 135mm or 150mm Apo Sironar Digital lens when photographing jewelry @ f16. Beyond that you start to see diffraction. Use swings/tilts to get as much in focus as possible. (I haven't tried focus stacking.) Profoto strobes through softboxes and grids strategically placed. Oh, and Photoshop by the graphic designer :)

Ramiro Elena

11-Dec-2012, 09:06

Right, I see what you mean.

Because a 90 TS lens due to its tilt capability can improve deep of field and still use a reasonable F stop. Remember that in digital photography difracction takes it`s toll much worse than with film.

Anyway Canon TS 90 is a super sharp lens that works flawlesly in macro with extension tubes. Is a much better lens to use in a digital DSLR camera than any LF lens.

Chokourov

11-Dec-2012, 12:18

[QUOTE=Thom Bennett;965141]"Thom
I had a look rauAntiquess.com Some business you work for, can you please be more specific on the lens and back you use forjeweleryy? Very good DOF is it stacking? What lighting techniques, is it studio flash or continuouse?"

Generally we use a 135mm or 150mm Apo Sironar Digital lens when photographing jewelry @ f16. Beyond that you start to see diffraction. Use swings/tilts to get as much in focus as possible. (I haven't tried focus stacking.) Profoto strobes through softboxes and grids strategically placed. Oh, and Photoshop by the graphic designer :)[/QUOTE
Thanks
150 sironar this is my favourite can't understand what for they made macro sironar it give just the same results even better contrast I did notice you have barrell effect on close front diamond rings shots probably due to cropping and guess you have a long bellows to get focuse then this close. I use two normal bellows linked together. Abou lighting I have tried strobes Bowens Estime 3000 power pack with 3 strobes but can't get it to work it just blast all highlights and when lowered power kinda underexposed. Can you tell what power W per sec you use for your left and right soft boxes please.
The Black Ice shots you do I assume is photoshop job ? Have you tried this for real ? Like with spot on vertical screen and position camera to get this halo of light just around jewellery piece? I seen it shot af Sothbeys in London but need large black studio with I font have

BetterSense

11-Dec-2012, 12:27

Remember that in digital photography difracction takes it`s toll much worse than with film.

Why do you think this?

Adamphotoman

11-Dec-2012, 14:13

Be careful with the L shaped standards on the Horseman 450. They are not my favourite with the scan back. When you start hanging more weight than a cut sheet film holder the camera will be prone to vibration. You will be served better by a U shaped standard. If you are hanging a DSLR on the rear standard you may need to support the camera somehow.
For jewellery focus stacking is amazing. Yes diffraction starts to soften the shots faster than one might think. Chromatic aberration will also destroy sharpness. I use the Capture One Pro to help remove chromatic aberrations.

My close up rig with the D800 makes use of an old PB4 bellows and a 135 enlarging lens or extention tubes with an 85mm tilt shift. LF lenses will not resolve as well as a lens designed to work with the smaller pixel sizes.

Thom Bennett

11-Dec-2012, 14:33

"150 sironar this is my favourite can't understand what for they made macro sironar it give just the same results even better contrast I did notice you have barrell effect on close front diamond rings shots probably due to cropping and guess you have a long bellows to get focuse then this close. I use two normal bellows linked together. Abou lighting I have tried strobes Bowens Estime 3000 power pack with 3 strobes but can't get it to work it just blast all highlights and when lowered power kinda underexposed. Can you tell what power W per sec you use for your left and right soft boxes please.
The Black Ice shots you do I assume is photoshop job ? Have you tried this for real ? Like with spot on vertical screen and position camera to get this halo of light just around jewellery piece? I seen it shot af Sothbeys in London but need large black studio with I font have"

I've never had the luxury of using a macro lens made specifically for large format but, for our purposes, the lenses we have are fine. Not sure what you mean by barrell effect but we use the standard Sinar bellows on an 18" rail. Highlights in jewelry photography are all about finesse but we do use some white plexi to shoot through as well. It's a balance between making the light soft enough so as not to cause unruly flares on the stones and a little snap with grids (covered with some Rosco scrim) to bring some punch back into the image. We're doing this with Profoto 1200 packs, no more than 1/2 stop between one light and the other. The "Black Ice" shots you refer to are done in camera. The surface is actually black glass. We hang a sheet of white plexi over the set at an angle and shoot a grid through it to make the halo. Hope this helps.

Here is a catalog that we produced that I am quite proud of: http://www.rauantiques.com/online-catalog/?refid=1304

hiend61

11-Dec-2012, 16:11

Why do you think this?

Because I have experienced it. It's easy to check. The smaller the pixel, the sooner difraction apears. My first DSLR digital was an EOS 1 DS, and noticed difraction at 11. film hold well at 16, and in the EOS 1 DS III difraction begins at 8. I haven´t tried a higher density pixel camera because I think difraction will start at 5,6!, and I do not like defocus so much.

BetterSense

11-Dec-2012, 20:51

As your post points out, if you use different apertures (in mm, not f/stops) on the different formats, diffraction will be different. But if you compose for the same DOF in the final image, aperture will be the same for any format, and so will diffraction. Diffraction is only worse for small formats if you use smaller apertures, either because you think you have to, or because you can (due to higher speed of smaller formats).

This is no mystery; with a normal lens you are entering diffraction territory at f/16 on a 35mm camera (2.5mm aperture) and f/64 on a 4x5 camera (also, amazingly, 2.5mm). You also get the same DOF in the final print, which is why I have always thought lenses should be labeled in mm instead of f/stops.

On a DX digital camera 2.5mm aperture would give around f/11. This basically just a statement that the DX format is faster than FX format (the same aperture gives a faster f-stop).

PhiloFarmer

12-Dec-2012, 21:36

IMHO...find a good used a Schneider Makro-Symmar 180mm...you'll never "look" back!

Chokourov

13-Dec-2012, 02:41

"Here is a catalogue that we produced that I am quite proud of: http://www.rauantiques.com/online-catalog/?refid=1304"
Thom Good job! Quality photo work! I work for high-end jewellery stores in UK (design and manufacture) and wonder who make all this amazing jewellery you take pictures of?

Sorry for number of spelling mistakes was writing in Iphone font is very small cant see properly with out my glasses.

Barrel lens distortion is an effect associated with wide-angle lenses but if you shoot close with not optimised lens like 150mm Apo Sironar I notice this then compare with rodenstock macro But I kinda like this effect it give little more perspective to image especially rings with large centre diamond shot head on make the stone even larger and kinda POP.
In regards if bellows 18" rail would make end to end extension with 150mm Apo Sironar If I fill hole frame with ring which I worry mu damage the bellows and live no space for compendium mask which I found really useful especially with Black Ice setup were spot hit to the face it help to get better contrast you can try for yourself just make square hole 2" x 2" in black card and set in front of lens adjust distance just before start to crop really work for me before I got Sinar Mask2. Also I have couple of reflecting masks for diamonds shoot for sample crushed kitchen foil give nice refraction with rainbows in diamonds ( will send sample later).
You mention about using scrim nets the one I seen in theatres have mesh 1/8 x 1/8 is what you use? did it work to eliminate reflection from studio surroundings?
Profoto 1200 packs solid stuff! I'm planing to get something similar but cant decide how powerful it should be I tried Bowen's 3000 power pack and may be I use it wrong way but found it too powerful even with soft-boxes attached on two main lights and 20percent greed on spot at f 20 1/200 power-pack set to 1/8 of max power was blasting all away! Assume you use 3 lights setup when shooting black Ice two soft-boxes and grid spot on white reflector please what power settings on Watt per second you set? Do you find power from 1200W/sec pack perfect or you have struggle with limits of adjustments? This would help me big time with the choice of lights. Thanks in advance

Armin Seeholzer

13-Dec-2012, 06:05

Für small things you need also a loupe lens they enlarge the very small things!

Cheers Armin

Chokourov

20-Dec-2012, 15:36

http://www.rauantiques.com/online-catalog/?refid=1304[/url]

Thom
Thanks for advise but please elaborate on SCRIM the one I have came across was 3mm x 3mm mesh how this can help to bring punch I even began to understand.
From my side promised to add sample of using mask on diamonds to get rainbow refraction here I just quickly shot one of my creations didnt quite nail it but enough to have idea on rainbow.
85803 What you think?

Ken Lee

20-Dec-2012, 16:35

Here is a catalog that we produced that I am quite proud of: http://www.rauantiques.com/online-catalog/?refid=1304

Lovely !

Some of the images have remarkable depth of field, not just along one plane but also sticking out of the plane - like the pearls on page 20.

Ken Lee

20-Dec-2012, 16:39

This is no mystery; with a normal lens you are entering diffraction territory at f/16 on a 35mm camera (2.5mm aperture) and f/64 on a 4x5 camera (also, amazingly, 2.5mm).

Is 2.5mm a coincidence, or related to diffraction according to some fundamental principle of optics ?

Bernice Loui

20-Dec-2012, 21:23

Stopping down is not a good way to achieve great depth of view. The more any lens is stopped down past where the majority of it's residual aberrations are minimized, the greater the loss if resolution (due to diffraction) . There is only one plane where the lens/recording medium plane is actually in focus. The larger the imaging device (film or digital image sensor) may make DOF worst due to magnification and DOF required.

In the world of macro imaging, there have been other solutions developed to deal with this problem.

*Scanned Light Imaging. This is where the lens is focused on a plane that is also illuminated by a slit lamp and the object to be imaged is moved from top to bottom. This allow the object being imaged to be built up in layers that are all in focus. This can be done digitally by producing image layers from different focus planes then combined together using imaging software.

http://www.kazilek.com/pages/slp.htm

*Depending on the amount of magnification using a Wild/Leitz M420 Macroscope may be a better choice than using a macro lans.
http://savazzi.freehostia.com/photography/wild_leica_m420.htm

Bernice

BetterSense

20-Dec-2012, 21:36

Is 2.5mm a coincidence, or related to diffraction according to some fundamental principle of optics ?

There is nothing special about 2.5mm, it's just that the smaller the hole, the more diffraction. This IS a fundamental principle of optics. For pictorial purposes, diffraction starts to become a noticeable effect in a photographic print somewhere in the 1-3mm range, depending on you criteria for resolution (as opposed to sharpness).

Diffraction sets in at the same aperture size (d) regardless of format. That same aperture diameter will give different f/numbers on different format sizes, of course.

Chokourov

21-Dec-2012, 02:24

Just wonder how DOF you need for photographing jewellery?
Diffraction, I agree the softness does appear @ F 35 on MF lens/sensor with would give about 10mm DOF with no use of tilt. Employing tilt and F20 if shot at sharp angle ( angle of tilt = X2 view angle in theory DOF as infinity which in practise not quite ) is possible to adjust DOF between .1cm up to infinity ( about a meter in my experience) how much do you need for taking photos of jewellery?
The Halo shot above I did, MF Mammiya 180/f 4 Macro fitted to Sinar X with little tilt captured on 24mm x 36mm size sensor form 400mm distance, didnt tilt much just enough to get what I need in focus. I didn't crop you see photo as is, with levels adjusted and some dust specs and big scratches on black plastic mended, copyright layer added.

Thom Bennett

21-Dec-2012, 08:47

Chokourov,

Very nice! When I'm speaking of scrims I am referring to these: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/41949-REG/Photoflex_LP_3939WT_Reversible_Fabric_for_LitePanel.html. We get our general lighting from softboxes shot through these and then add grid lights and small reflectors to bring the punch back into the image.

Thom
Thanks for advise but please elaborate on SCRIM the one I have came across was 3mm x 3mm mesh how this can help to bring punch I even began to understand.
From my side promised to add sample of using mask on diamonds to get rainbow refraction here I just quickly shot one of my creations didnt quite nail it but enough to have idea on rainbow.
85803 What you think?

Lovely !

Some of the images have remarkable depth of field, not just along one plane but also sticking out of the plane - like the pearls on page 20.

Thanks Ken. This would be a combination of the movements of a view camera (to get the focus across the entire plane of the pearls) and Photoshop (re-focusing, changing plane onto the earrings and the graphic designer combines the two images).