So long PayPal ...

[lilmsmaggie]

Meet the new kid on the block:

Take this ...

http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/24/pf/end_of_credit_cards/index.htm?hpt=T2


http://www.paywithisis.com

And this ... https://squareup.com

[Ash]

I freak out thinking someone might know my pin for my debit card... I daren't use a phone to pay for anything. No matter how secure you think you are, wireless data can be harvested just as or more easily than wired payment.

[lilmsmaggie]

I freak out thinking someone might know my pin for my debit card... I daren't use a phone to pay for anything. No matter how secure you think you are, wireless data can be harvested just as or more easily than wired payment.

I've had two incidents in that past twelve months BOTH involving PayPal where someone got a hold of my card info -- Despite PayPal always touting how SECURE your payments transactions are with them. :mad: Both times, my bank fortunately caught the transaction and placed a hold on my account. That meant TWICE! I had to be reissued new account numbers.

[Ash]

I'm all for anything that stops feepal having a monopoly, but I doubt it will be forced out so easily

[Ari]

Great, another way we can get robbed.
I use Paypal very reluctantly, I don't think it's the bee's knees, and it's bloody expensive.
A friend suggested PayMate, but it isn't worldwide.

[bobwysiwyg]

I freak out thinking someone might know my pin for my debit card... I daren't use a phone to pay for anything. No matter how secure you think you are, wireless data can be harvested just as or more easily than wired payment.

I'm with you. It will be a cold day in youknowwhat before I do. :mad:

[onnect17]

I opened a Paypal cc few years back and I do not use it out of paypal. Not problems so far.
The best 5 bucks you can spend: security key. And you attach it to ebay too.

Regarding my itouch. Fake name, fake address, and absolutely not cc. Buy the itunes cards in the market. Paid cash for it in the apple store and make sure the supervirus called iTunes is by no means installed in your computer. It's sad to see how big of a business is reselling you personal information, you life.

The principle regarding information is simple. If is not there, can’t be stolen.

[onnect17]

Another tip. Make sure your CCs are individual. If you identity is stolen it does not drag your spouse credit with it, and vice versa.

[kev curry]

The human implanted RFID chip will obsolete them all. Hahahahahahaha...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Z3nDmEg7I&feature=related

[Dan Fromm]

Hmm. Lessee now, lilmsmaggie. In the cowardly old world I handed you cash. In the brave new world we bump cell phones.

I don't see the difference. But then, I'm not important enough to have a cell phone.

[BetterSense]

What we need, and what everyone wants deep down, is real, anonymous digital cash.

In real life, I can conduct a craigslist transaction, pay cash, completely anonymously and without involving a 3rd party. There is still no widespread way to do the same thing online.

Digital cash is something that has been possible for decades; the main problems with digital cash schemes are how to establish the value of the currency. There have been systems (like E-gold) that tie the value of the currency to some real-world reserves, but they have tended to get shut down by the government (even though you are allowed to trade futures on gold all you want, trading digital cash tied to gold is apparently not something the government likes).

There are other digital cash systems that make no attempt to tie their currency to the real world, and only ensure scarcity by hardwiring a limit to total amount of 'coins' that can ever be created. BitCoin is one of these. It's a fascinating idea and the value of bitcoins is still steadily increasing, but it hasn't caught on widely enough to buy/sell things to average people yet.

[jnantz]

i use boggs notes

[lilmsmaggie]

What we need, and what everyone wants deep down, is real, anonymous digital cash.

In real life, I can conduct a craigslist transaction, pay cash, completely anonymously and without involving a 3rd party. There is still no widespread way to do the same thing online.

Digital cash is something that has been possible for decades; the main problems with digital cash schemes are how to establish the value of the currency. There have been systems (like E-gold) that tie the value of the currency to some real-world reserves, but they have tended to get shut down by the government (even though you are allowed to trade futures on gold all you want, trading digital cash tied to gold is apparently not something the government likes).

There are other digital cash systems that make no attempt to tie their currency to the real world, and only ensure scarcity by hardwiring a limit to total amount of 'coins' that can ever be created. BitCoin is one of these. It's a fascinating idea and the value of bitcoins is still steadily increasing, but it hasn't caught on widely enough to buy/sell things to average people yet.

There was an excellent show on the concept of money which aired on This American Life earlier this month, especially the segment on Brazil:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/423/the-invention-of-money

[Leigh]

The human implanted RFID chip will obsolete them all.
Yep...

Then the bad guys can steal everything you have at one time. Much lower overhead and effort for them.

- Leigh

[mdm]

In New Zealand, you pay for everything you buy on-line directly with a bank transfer. Simple and no third party other than the normal bank payments system. As long as you have created the payment in your internet banking before 8pm it goes through overnight. Dont know why you dont do the same in the USA. Really the only reason for Paypal to exist, is to facilitate international transactions.

[Roger Thoms]

Another tip. Make sure your CCs are individual. If you identity is stolen it does not drag your spouse credit with it, and vice versa.

That's funny I always thought separate CC accounts were so your spouse would see all the camera purchases.

Roger

[B.S.Kumar]

In Japan direct bank transfers and cash are the most common methods of payment. Transfers between Post Office accounts are free, and banks charge a small sum, between 105 and 210 yen. They are instant, and after 3PM, take place the next day. No one, including bank employees, knows what checks are, and credit cards are generally accepted only at large establishments. In India too, direct bank transfers are becoming common and are free or very cheap.

Kumar

[Moopheus]

Dont know why you dont do the same in the USA.

Because charging transaction fees are the only way businesses actually make any money here any more.


Really the only reason for Paypal to exist, is to facilitate international transactions.

Actually, it exists because in the bad old days there was no secure mechanism for online payments of any kind.

My bank offers free ("Pricing subject to change") interbank transfers, but you have to know the recipient's receiving bank account. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty picky about who I give that information to.

[mdm]

Every statement I recieve from my suppliers, includes their bank account number. No body wants to paid by cheque.

A bank account number is way safer than a credit card number. No one can do anything with your account number except pay you, with a credit card number though, it is another story.

That is how trademe works in NZ, 90 % bank transfer, you give your account number to complete strangers. The feedback system keeps it honest and if you have a problem with a return then the auction sites staff are onto it quickly.

[B.S.Kumar]

A check has a series of numbers at the bottom, identifying your bank and account number, so just paying by check doesn't prevent someone from knowing your bank information.

Kumar

[Steve Smith]

But then, I'm not important enough to have a cell phone.

Neither am I. But we are in the minority now.


Steve.

[Moopheus]

(even though you are allowed to trade futures on gold all you want, trading digital cash tied to gold is apparently not something the government likes).


When you trade financial assets, the trades are valued in dollars and any profits made by either party get reported as income. The Treasury, in particular the IRS, tends to view any sort of alterna-cash scheme as tax avoidance. For instance, in various times and places, communities have tried to set up barter-based systems, where participants get credits for providing goods and services to other participants. Theoretically the trades are of equal value, but the IRS sees this as a form of black-market trading. They don't like being cut out of the loop.

[Ed Richards]

Even value trades are still tax avoidance. Does not matter if I pay you for a $10 haircut with a $10 dollar bill or $10 dollars of labor.

Over the years, I have had a lot more problems with banks screwing up accounts than Paypal. I appreciate having Paypal between the morons at my bank and folks I send money to from my bank account. I think my bank has changed hands 4 times in the last 5 years.

[walter23]

I just bought something from a guy on ebay and he informed me that paypal put a 21 day hold on the money he received (in case I file a dispute, though it does get lifted if I file positive feedback - maybe). Now I'm all for their buyer protection measures, but this is pretty ridiculous - clearly a case of passing on the entire risk to their customers. Sure, banking institutions are not infallible as we've seen the last couple of years, but the potential rewards are enormous and with that should come some acceptance of the risks. Perhaps by legislation. To be licensed as a bank (or whatever) I think these institutions should have certain service standards that they are forced to adhere to - like not holding money from people (perhaps with the exception of obvious bad-credit basket cases... but even that is troubling, because what you have in those cases are financial institutions holding poor people's paycheques so that they have to go to these huge cheque-cashing-fee places like Money Mart, probably owned by the same damned people anyway).

[walter23]

Neither am I. But we are in the minority now.

Count me in, too. In my case it's disgust with the Canadian cell-phone pricing structure. I've shopped for phone plans several times over the last few years, and every single time I've found that there's pretty much no way to get a phone and use it regularly without it costing you upwards of $60 a month (perhaps $100), and I'm just not socially active enough to justify it. Besides, I can sit down in a coffee shop with my laptop and phone people with google calling for free if I really need to contact someone.

[Moopheus]

Even value trades are still tax avoidance. Does not matter if I pay you for a $10 haircut with a $10 dollar bill or $10 dollars of labor.


Yes, that's what the IRS says.

I for one am not looking forward to touchless pay systems. I still like to pay cash for stuff whenever possible--I don't see any reason for anyone but me to keep track of what I'm buying. And let's face it, if it's not already obvious, "innovation" in financial services is generally not for the benefit of the individual, it's about generating as much transaction activity as possible for the bank.

[engl]

What we need, and what everyone wants deep down, is real, anonymous digital cash.


Where does the desire for anonymity come from? I'm not sure that it is what everyone wants.

Within Sweden, most people pay with direct bank transfers, free of cost. The recipient can see which account the money came from, but so what?

I have not had any problems with PayPal, they offer protection when dealing with people I don't know. It would be nice with smooth and free international direct bank transfers when dealing with known companies or trusted sellers.

[BetterSense]

Within Sweden, most people pay with direct bank transfers, free of cost. The recipient can see which account the money came from, but so what?


It's not the recipient knowing where the money came from that is the concern. It's the ability of 2 parties to conduct a transaction without going through another, 3rd party. That's what cash does, and that's what I mean by 'anonymous', but that was probably not the correct word. What is needed is the ability of Party A to pay Party B without being forced to go through (and typically give a royalty to) Party C.

[Kimberly Anderson]

I'm buying a camera right now. Could have used PayPal, but the seller agreed that a cashier's check sent certified mail would be acceptable. Cashier's check was free, mailing was $7.50.

I was glad not to use PayPal.

[onnect17]

There was an excellent show on the concept of money which aired on This American Life earlier this month, especially the segment on Brazil:

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/423/the-invention-of-money

Was a great show, and trust me, I'm way far from the npr crowd.

[onnect17]

That's funny I always thought separate CC accounts were so your spouse would see all the camera purchases.

Roger

The credit agencies mix identities more often than you can imagine. For example, TransUnion does not use unique id, just proximity. All you need is a couple of sisters with sequential SSN to have a very high probability of having mixed records.

[Steve Smith]

I'm not important enough to have a cell phone.

Neither am I. That's two of us then. Anyone else want to join the 'No Cell Phone Club' ?


Steve.

[Dan Fromm]

Steve, under heavy pressure from my wife I've just left the club. I'm no more important than I used to be ...

[PViapiano]

I'm buying a camera right now. Could have used PayPal, but the seller agreed that a cashier's check sent certified mail would be acceptable. Cashier's check was free, mailing was $7.50.

I was glad not to use PayPal.

I don't accept cashier's checks via the mail for goods. Counterfeit CC are very common. I know more people who've been scammed with them than with any other method.

Just a FYI alert...

[GPS]

Steve, don't despair. Even with professional pressure on me I refuse to have a cell phone. My sanity is not on sale. ;)

[Vaughn]

Neither am I. That's two of us then. Anyone else want to join the 'No Cell Phone Club' ?Steve.

For many years I was in the "No phone" club...no check book and no credit card either. I walked around town to pay all my bills (rent, utilities) in cash. That was nice...maybe that is why I remember the 70's and 80's as being so nice. In the late 80's I got married to a nurse -- had to get a phone because she would be on call.

Recently divorced and I had to rent a place. Well, a cell phone is cheaper than a land-line ($36/mo), so now I got one of those things. I still manage o go for days without using it. "I'm not intelligent enough for a smart phone" -- love that line!

Vaughn

[TheBigBlackInTheSky]

I couldn't survive without my phone, guys! I move around too much to use a land-line--I'm never in my room, after all. What I don't understand is having to go out every six months and get the newest thing. I just got a fine used cell phone. It's not the newest thing, but it works fine.

[paulr]

Cell phones aren't about self-importance, they're about changing social norms. 20 years ago owning a cell phone meant you were a doctor, a drug dealer, or a poser. Today, owning a landline means you're a dinosaur (I say this as a land line-owning dinosaur).

To put it in perspective, fewer than one of my friends out five now has a land line. And almost all of my friends are over 30.

I have one friend who doesn't have a cell phone, and his stubbornness makes it difficult to make plans with him. The ways that groups of people interact and meet these days presume cell contact.

Changing times. Reminds me of when my 95 year old grandmother called her best friend rude for not having an answering machine ...

[jp]

tracfone is the cheapest way to be in the cellphone owning club. Roughly $10/month.

If you're on the dole, you can get cellular for free from safelinkwireless. Saves the US government money compared to buying landlines for the "income eligible"

[domaz]

http://www.stevehuffphotos.com/Steve_Huff_Photos/Blog/Entries/2009/8/29_PAYPAL_SUCKS!_HOW_PAYPAL_STOLE_THOUSANDS_OF_DOLLARS_FROM_ME_AND_HOW_THEY_CAN_DO_THE_SAME_TO_YOU!.html


This one is interesting.

Oh man another Paypal rant. Fun to read for a while but they sure get boring after a while. Plus the fact that you have no way to verify anything they are claiming. People do lie to get what they want in the customer service world, it happens quite often so it's hard to know where the truth lies with these rants.

[domaz]

dumaz, the fact you assume people are liars says a lot.

just as the fact I think what you wrote says a lot a bout me.

Why not take the guy at his word?

Many of us have had louse experiences with pay pal.

I'm not accusing anyone of being a liar just saying when you are only hearing one side of the story for better or worse you simply don't know the truth. People do lie or at least leave out important details to get what they want- it happens.

[rdenney]

I'm not accusing anyone of being a liar just saying when you are only hearing one side of the story for better or worse you simply don't know the truth. People do lie or at least leave out important details to get what they want- it happens.

Even honest people do it. People fool themselves all the time, and our brains are constantly refiguring reality to make us seem innocent in any given conflict.

Rick "who never assumes the whole story is being told in any anecdote" Denney

[Scott Walker]

dumaz,


Really....

[kev curry]

dumaz,

Many of us have had louse experiences with pay pal.

And you have the front to call someone ''dumaz''.
Probably best to get the powder just to be sure.

[domaz]

dumaz,

My last name is Domazlicky so in elementary school that was a common "mispronunciation" of my name used by the bullies. I'm sure this was an unintentional "misspelling" of my alias, as I'm sure no one here would resort to elementary school practices to make a point.

[paulr]

The biggest problem I have with PayPal is that ebay, which has no real competition anywhere, requires you to accept payment through it. So they get to gouge us twice. I'm surprised this arrangement isn't in violation of something or other.

[Mike Anderson]

The biggest problem I have with PayPal is that ebay, which has no real competition anywhere, requires you to accept payment through it. So they get to gouge us twice. I'm surprised this arrangement isn't in violation of something or other.

I know, it seems like there should be some kind of antitrust violation somewhere in there. Maybe ebay has a powerful lobby (oops politics!).

...Mike

[CP Goerz]

'If I have to deal with paypal again I will open a separate bank account and keep only 10 cents or so past what is needed for the latest deal. Other than that, nothing else they can get to.'



That won't help.


All Paypal will do is overdraw your account and you'll be stuck with a $35+ overdraft charge. Its all hidden in the fine print when you hit the 'Accept' button.

[onnect17]

The biggest problem I have with PayPal is that ebay, which has no real competition anywhere, requires you to accept payment through it. So they get to gouge us twice. I'm surprised this arrangement isn't in violation of something or other.

Paul,
I don't think eBay forces you to accept PayPal.
Check this link --> http://pages.ebay.com/help/pay/accepted-payment-methods.html

[jeroldharter]

'If I have to deal with paypal again I will open a separate bank account and keep only 10 cents or so past what is needed for the latest deal. Other than that, nothing else they can get to.'



That won't help.


All Paypal will do is overdraw your account and you'll be stuck with a $35+ overdraft charge. Its all hidden in the fine print when you hit the 'Accept' button.

Better yet, start a competing company. Decreasing regulation and increasing competition would fix some of the problems.

I don't know why people say that PayPal is expensive. Of course, they charge a fee but I doubt that many of us work for free either. I have sold items to people all over the world using PayPal. I could never have sold these items for the price paid without PayPal so I had no problem with the fees. Also, I have purchased items from all over the world using PayPal as the intermediary. It works well.

Some in other countries say they do direct bank transfers for online purchases. The last thing I want is access to my bank account without some middle man to run interference. That is worth a fee.

[rguinter]

Better yet, start a competing company. Decreasing regulation and increasing competition would fix some of the problems.

I don't know why people say that PayPal is expensive. Of course, they charge a fee but I doubt that many of us work for free either. I have sold items to people all over the world using PayPal. I could never have sold these items for the price paid without PayPal so I had no problem with the fees. Also, I have purchased items from all over the world using PayPal as the intermediary. It works well.

Some in other countries say they do direct bank transfers for online purchases. The last thing I want is access to my bank account without some middle man to run interference. That is worth a fee.

Jerold:

Direct bank transfers are done all the time both nationally and internationally and are very safe. You authorize the transfer directly at your bank and they make the transaction. The receiver does not have access to your bank account.

I have done about 6 or so bank transfers myself. The first was done as a result of a divorce settlement 9-years ago when it was ruled (by the judge) that I had to electronically transfer $50k to my ex as an exchange to keep a pension intact. The bank handled it nicely and there was no worry about the ex having access to my account or me having access to hers thereafter.

I've also done about 5 or so bank transfers for internet auction purchases. I have never used paypal and intend to continue not using it... for all the reasons bouncing around in this thread and others. Frankly I never trusted paypal from the first moment I heard about it and refuse to use it. Yes I have lost a few transactions and given up selling on the internet auction site.

But to me the security I maintain without a paypal account is worth the loss. And even without a paypal account, I get anywhere from 1 to 10 phony paypal messages a week in my spam folders. My thinking is the whole paypal phenomenon has the hackers working overtime trying to cash in on it.

So to me it is not worth the risk and I gracefully accept the loss of potential transactions from those that insist on using it.

My $0.02.

Bob G.

[paulr]

Paul,
I don't think eBay forces you to accept PayPal.
Check this link --> http://pages.ebay.com/help/pay/accepted-payment-methods.html

Interesting, thanks for posting. I'm pretty sure they made it a requirement a few years ago (it caused a lot of complaining) ... maybe someone put pressure on them to reverse that decision.

[Ivan J. Eberle]

PayPal is an unregulated bank (but then again, so are the banks these days).

A bank-bank transfer costs somewhere in the neighborhood of $30, at least it does with my bank. For smaller items it simply makes no sense whatever.

Also, to get "Trusted Merchant Status" or whatever they're calling it to become a seller, not just a buyer, you have to tie your PayPal account to a bank account.

You can always purchase something or send money using a credit card for a transaction without giving them other banking info, however. This is probably the safest way to make a purchase, as has probably been mentioned earlier in this long (and now somewhat tedious) thread, as you can get your CC involved in a chargeback if things get off-track.

[rguinter]

PayPal is an unregulated bank (but then again, so are the banks these days).

A bank-bank transfer costs somewhere in the neighborhood of $30, at least it does with my bank. For smaller items it simply makes no sense whatever.

Yes this is true if I recall. My credit union is also charging $20 to make a transfer each semester when I need to transfer funds to my daughter's tuition account at college. But that transfer is many thousands of dollars and the $20 fee saves a lot of gas money and lost time running around trying to make the payment another way.

So I have never considered a bank transfer for anything less than about a $1000 transfer.

As you say, for small-ticket items it makes no sense. I guess for me the real decision comes when I consider: do I really want that small-ticket item badly enough that I have to worry about how to pay for it. Sometimes a $50 bill in the mail beats a lot of hassles and, in the long run, there is little risk of its loss if one is conscientious about who, how, and where it is being sent.

Another $0.02.

Bob G.

[rguinter]

Interesting, thanks for posting. I'm pretty sure they made it a requirement a few years ago (it caused a lot of complaining) ... maybe someone put pressure on them to reverse that decision.

I don't think it's an absolute requirement. But given that ebay owns paypal outright, they are making it very difficult to avoid it. Many sellers absolutely insist on it and in those cases I defer bidding in their auctions. Many will accept an alternate payment method if asked ahead of time and that is my M.O. If I want to bid on something I ask for an alternate payment method.

If they refuse, and it does happen sometimes, then I simply don't bid and move on. I have found that the item is (almost never) a once-in-a-lifetime offering.

Bob G.

[CP Goerz]

'Better yet, start a competing company. Decreasing regulation and increasing competition would fix some of the problems.'


Kinda like complaining of the high cost of gas...just drill for my own oil/refine it and make my own-Problem solved :-)

I don't have a problem with Paypal per se, I have a problem with Ebay 'telling me' I can't say I take checks/MO's. All the other companies are Paypal under a different guise, all have near identical fees etc.

[jeroldharter]

'Better yet, start a competing company. Decreasing regulation and increasing competition would fix some of the problems.'


Kinda like complaining of the high cost of gas...just drill for my own oil/refine it and make my own-Problem solved :-)

Yes, it is.

[Christopher Nisperos]

Neither am I. That's two of us then. Anyone else want to join the 'No Cell Phone Club' ?


Steve.

I'm in.

I've (almost) never owned one. But, like Dan Fromm, I see my "cell-less" existence being threatened by economic necessity ... here in France, calling a cell-phone number from a landline costs a mint (not to mention that French telephone companies are con-job specialists in the domain). It's cheaper to keep a cell-phone in the house, if only for this purpose. : (

However . . . vive le resistance à la cell-phone ! The world needs to slow down, anyway. Then we wouldn't need as many nuclear power plants, etc.

Signed, your voluntarily dinosaur,

Christopher

::

[toolbox]

Paypal fees (around 3% for someone paying with a credit card) are pretty much in line with what you'd be paying with a merchant account that would let you take a CC directly from someone. Most people don't know it, but credit card companies make money on both ends of a transaction...the store you buy from loses that same 3% (maybe 2% or less if they're big enough) when you buy something. Then the CC companies make money on your balance... It's illegal for a store to charge you anything extra for using a CC directly, so it's just built into the price and you never see it. Some stores will offer a cash discount though.

I've been buying and selling on ebay for a decade now, and as a seller using paypal makes actually makes a lot of sense...they've integrated the whole payment and shipping process into ebay, and if you do any volume at all it makes life a whole lot easier. I no longer have to keep track of receipts from the post office, input tracking information, I can see who's paid for what instantly, there's no chance I'll mess up their address, etc. I have very little free time, and I consider that time very valuable...paying a small fee to save a lot of time sounds like a pretty good deal to me. Nobody likes paying fees, but doing business has a cost. Hey, there's always Craigslist :D. Ebay doesn't care how someone pays you...if someone pays in chickens, you can just mark the item as "payment received". I'd be happy to take a MO, cash, or anything else someone wants to pay in...I never want to get between someone and their money :D. Most people like paypal for the same reason they the like drive through...it's convenient and means they don't need to make any extra effort. I guess I shouldn't complain though since I pay for things with paypal all the time... Paypal does have other options...if you send money as a "gift", it costs you nothing. It's not supposed to be used for business transactions, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Maybe I've just been lucky, but so far I haven't had any problems with security. I get the same phishing scam e-mails as everyone else, and I just delete them. My day may be coming though, I suppose.

On another note, because e-bay doesn't like advertising exactly how much in fees you pay when you sell something, I made a chart breaking it down...
If anyone is curious, the fees go down a little as the price goes up. An item under $50 sold at auction, you lose 14%. Buy it now you lose 11%.
A $500 item at auction you lose 12%, buy it now you eat 8%.
Those rates include the listing fee, final value fee, and paypal fee. I no longer sell things in auction style listings, only "buy it now" because I do enough market research to know the value of things. If it's unique enough there is no real comparison, I make it up and justify the price.

[rguinter]

I'm in.

I've (almost) never owned one. But, like Dan Fromm, I see my "cell-less" existence being threatened by economic necessity ... here in France, calling a cell-phone number from a landline costs a mint (not to mention that French telephone companies are con-job specialists in the domain). It's cheaper to keep a cell-phone in the house, if only for this purpose. : (

However . . . vive le resistance à la cell-phone ! The world needs to slow down, anyway. Then we wouldn't need as many nuclear power plants, etc.

Signed, your voluntarily dinosaur,

Christopher

::

I am an infrequent user of cell phone technology. Actually an infrequent user of phone technology in general.

When I worked for AT&T in a large facility I would often walk over to an associate's office to talk rather than using the phone or just send an email. Those were the days prior to the www and email was one of the primary ways that we communicated.

Today I have the same Mororola "intrinsically safe" cell phone I purchased in 2004. It even has the same battery. I have the minimum monthly package with the minimum monthly "minutes" and I have never once come close to using them all. Even in a year's time I use perhaps a month's worth of time allotment.

At the facility where I now work all personal electronics devices are forbidden to be carried in the field. For that reason I never bring my cell phone in from the car. I leave it in the console in the parking lot and (in the rare case) where I need to make a personal call during the day I do so in the parking lot where there are no prohibitions. Our facility has chemical storage for bulk quantities of flammable liquids... i.e., the reason for the electronics prohibition.

I have noted a great increase in cell phone usage in public these days... over the last 5-10 years I would guess. Used to be if one needed to make a call (in the pre-cell phone era) they would look for a phone booth. And often they would seek the privacy of a closed booth.

Not so today. Seems that nobody gives a hoot about privacy anymore and will publicly shout their most intimate conversations in elevators, grocery stores, while waiting for a haircut in the barbershop, or while on the street. I hear them all around me all the time and wonder about these people. But as a human factors engineer my hypothesis is that they are "tuning out" their surroundings and creating a form of "cognitive isolation."

And this "cognitive isolation" is something that I have pointed out in other threads here on this forum and elsewhere that is a really bad thing. It causes a loss of situational awareness and, as we are witnessing on our highways, a severe increase in accidents/incidents of all kinds. I once witnessed a woman in angry conversation on her cell-phone walking down the street. Without a glance she crossed a 4-lane highway diagonally with all lanes screeching to a halt all around her while she proceeded across in total ignorance of her situational predicament. If one of those braking drivers had also been in cell-phone conversation at that moment she would assuredly have been killed.

And that is just one of many incidents I have personally witnessed.

So now that this thread has drifted, and I have contributed to the drift, perhaps we should start a new thread titled "So Long Cell Phones."

Bob G.

[CP Goerz]

www dot rolbe dot com/paypal dot htm


Great for calculating fee :-)

[BetterSense]

I no longer accept paypal for payment, because of the way paypal handles disputes. The risk seems to be all on the seller, so I will purchase things with paypal, though.

I think what people really want is cryptographic e-cash, like Bitcoin. Several such schemes exist but don't seem to be catching on, although therle are a lot of bitcoin exchanges out there now; you can even exchange it for visa prepaid cards.