Toyo 8x10 810MII opinions please.

[TAG]

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[Lachlan 717]

First thing to note is that these are heavy cameras. They are metal.

Couple of observations: they are very solid cameras. I've had a 3.5kg (8kg) lens on the front, mounted in a Universal Iris, so it can take the weight.

Beautifully smooth rack focus.

You need to be careful setting the camera up to make sure the standards are vertical as they can go past 90 degrees.

Replacement bellows (genuine) are very, very expensive.

Tripod balance is fine, as long as you move the front and back standards roughly equally when extending the base. This only applies to long lenses/close up work. This is a rear focusing camera (no focus rack onthe front on my 810m).

I didn't try any short lenses, so can't comment on these.

If you can stand the weight, these are brilliant cameras.

[jeroldharter]

I had one but sold it. I went with a Wehman instead.

The Toyo is a rock. You won't find a sturdier 8x10 field camera. The focus is very smooth.

The Toyo has a fixed bellows, so no interchangeable or bag bellows are available. I don't know about a 120mm lens. That would be a little tight. A 210 no problem. You would need to doublecheck the clearance of the front standard if you have an enormous rear element.

You should check out a Wehman. I can use mine with a 90mm lens and 4x5 back but that is the absolute limit of the bellows and minimal movements are possible. So 120 should be fine and you would not have much coverage for movements on 8x10 anyway. 150 and up would be easy movements. It is not as rigid as the Toyo but half the weight. If you used it in the lightest configuration for wide angle, it is very light for an 8x10 but rigid. The largest lens that I use is a Toyo 600C (Copal 3) and that is no problem. I have a Rodenstock Apo-Sironar W 210 (large, Copal 3) that I have not had a chance to use yet, but I think the camera will manage that lens well.

The Wehman is very solid on a tripod. Like the Toyo, it is a flatbed. I use a large Gitzo pan-tilt head which has a huge platform so it is rock solid (much more so than with an Arca Z1 ball head). Also, you can have a second hole tapped to screw it down in two places if you wish.

I think that the Toyo is heavy enough that calling it a "field camera" is almost misleading. But maybe I am weak.

[ic-racer]

Arca-Swiss F -classic C: 3.9 kg
Canham JMC810: 4.1 kg
Canham Light-Weight MQC810: 3.8 kg
Canham Standard T6810: 4.3 kg
Gandolfi Traditional G810 (with or without front swing): 4.0 kg
Gandolfi Variant GV810/L2 (LW or SW): 4.0 kg
Gowland All Movement: 3.6 kg
Osaka/Tachihara/Wista: 4.5 kg
Phillips Compact II: 3.9 kg
Shen Hao FCL810-A: 4.4 kg
Toho FC-810: 3.9 kg
Wehman Field Camera: 4.0 kg

Toyo 810MII 8x10 8.9kg (according to the Calumet site).

So, the Toyo is nearly twice the mass of most other field cameras.

[Lachlan 717]

The Toyo has a fixed bellows, so no interchangeable or bag bellows are available.

Mine has removable bellows.

It seems that you can get bag bellows for this (see here) (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum379/72133-toyo-810m-others.html)

No idea whether you can still get new bag bellows (I don't know if the Toyo 810 G-series bellows fit). Adorama has the latter.

[Neal Chaves]

I have a Toyo 810M. I've had it since 1990, after trying a number of other cameras. The bellows certainly are interchangeable, but I have not found it necessary to fit a bag bellows. The 120mm lens which does not permit shifts or tilts of the front in any case, is quite easy to use on a flat board with the camera bed dropped. The 150mm f8 Nikkor SW lens is used in a recessed board and can make use of just about all the shift the camera is capable of with the standard bellows and with the bed flat.

I replaced the Toyo bellows due to pinholes in 1996 with one made from "lifetime" material from Western Bellows for about $300. Functions and folds up with no problems and still looks pristine.

When I bought it used, LN- from KEH, it was all out of adjustment. Alignment is fixed with set screws which should be carefully torqued and painted with Locktite Blue. Once you have reset or verified alignment, take the following precautions to keep it that way. When you fold up the camera, do leave the back and front standard lock knobs loose. Leave the front rise and fall knobs loose as well. This will prevent any strain being put on the alignment if the camera is compressed in a case, or picked up by the closing clasp. Leaving the front loose keeps strain off the bellows when you fold up. I fitted my camera with a Deardorff-like handle, but don't pick up or carry the camera this way without leaving the lock knobs loose as above.

[jeroldharter]

Mine has removable bellows.

It seems that you can get bag bellows for this (see here) (http://www.apug.org/forums/forum379/72133-toyo-810m-others.html)

No idea whether you can still get new bag bellows (I don't know if the Toyo 810 G-series bellows fit). Adorama has the latter.

Oops. Maybe I did not look close enough. Thanks for clarifying. The Toyo 8x10 in that listing though is an old model. Do you know if the newer, all black, Toyo 8x10MII has interchangeable bellows? Either way, I am sure they are very expensive.

[Michael Kadillak]

I have used my tan Toyo 810M for about five years now. Yes, it is a bit heavier than some alternatives but to answer your question directly it fits over a tripod nicely because unlike the Kodak Master that only goes forward from the camera, the Toyo has a front rail that is not geared but locks in position going forward and the rear standard focuses smoothly on twin geared tubes one on either side of the camera. The camera has a small bail arm that opens up the back of the camera that makes it easy to get holders in. The spring on the back is nice and firm the way I like them. There is a safety push out before you can push up clip to change the orientation of the ground glass from vertical to horizontal. I inserted a piece of acrylic in the machined slots in the back of the camera so I have a built in ground glass protector that I focus right on top of. It also keeps the fog off of the glass in cold weather. The lock positions for both standards are rock solid. It better lock down hard because the rear standard only has a lock screw at the camera base. I use three 8x10 cameras and the Toyo fits the billing of the quick set up and shoot/short lens and up to a 24" lens camera. I can set up my Toyo and be ready to shoot in under 30 seconds with a quick release plate that goes into my Bogen tripod head. My Canham 8x10 wood is my light packer camera and short lens camera (I have the bag bellows) and the Calumet C1 is the long lens shooter. I shot with the Wehman and it was just not me but different photographers have different opinions of what they like. What I like about the Toyo is that its controls are very limited (like the Kodak Master) and you do not have to think about what you have not completed to make a photograph. The other side of this is the Canham which has more controls but fits its market niche well. I also like the ability to get customer service and parts in New Jersey.

If you can find someone with one give it a run through. That is what I did with the Wehman and a number of other 8x10 cameras.

[Lachlan 717]

Oops. Maybe I did not look close enough. Thanks for clarifying. The Toyo 8x10 in that listing though is an old model. Do you know if the newer, all black, Toyo 8x10MII has interchangeable bellows? Either way, I am sure they are very expensive.

It's the cream/the beige/the off-white/the ivory 810M (I have the black).

810M II has interchangeable bellows, including an extended length one (the 810M II has a greater draw than the 810M).

[Dominique Cesari]

<< Will the Toyo 810M or MII camera work well with a bag bellows and short ~120mm lens? >>
Yes, see the remark about the bed at the end.

<<Is it fiddly to adjust? By this I mean, does it easily and smoothly adjust to where you want it and does it stay pretty much adjusted without moving when the locking knobs are tightened.>>
Yes, yes, yes - a remark about heavy lenses under

<<Does it focus smoothly>> Yes <<and is there much play in the focus mechanism?>>No - You feel like using an high grade monorail.

<<Can the front standard handle heavy lenses such as a 210mm Super Angulon without excessive starin and flexture? Is it rigid overall?>>
Yes, but you will want to screw firmly the front standard when titlted down to avoid unexpected movement. This is to have specially in mind when mounting heavy long process lenses unbalanced on their lens boards.

Bag bellows is needed with lenses 210 mm and shorter if you want to shift more than 20/30 mm.

With 150/155 mm lenses shifted down, the bed may cross the field, but this is manageable with rear tilt on both standards.

Great camera, but a weight.

[Cor]

I have a 810MI too, +1 on all points mentioned (and bellows can be easily exchanged for a bag bellows, if you can find one)

One warning: if you consider buying one, check the bellows for pin holes. Mine was riddled with it, and I heard form several others as well (both 8*10 and 4*5 Toyo's) I got an excellent bellows from Camera Bellows, not too expensive.

Good luck,

Cor

[ambroz]

How about long lenses on Toyo 810M (MII)? Is it fine for Schneider 800 mm tele or even longer? Or is it better to choose another camera for it? For field use and very long lenses, there aren't many good choices (= rigid enough + not too heavy), are they?

Ambroz

[Michael Kadillak]

How about long lenses on Toyo 810M (MII)? Is it fine for Schneider 800 mm tele or even longer? Or is it better to choose another camera for it? For field use and very long lenses, there aren't many good choices (= rigid enough + not too heavy), are they?

Ambroz

IMHO I feel that the best overall balance for am 8x10 field camera considering weight and capability of shooting long lenses is the Canham 8x10 wooden traditional that will get you a bit more than 36" of bellows. Some of the new entries into the market from China are limited out at about a 24" lens. My older tan Toyo 810 is similarly positioned.

If you wanted to shoot out of the back of your vehicle the Linhof Color Karden with the long 50" rail and the triple standard (two bellows) is hard to beat with long lenses.

[tgtaylor]

Although I don't own an 8x10 I do own 4 4x5 Toyo's including the ROBOS. Like the astronomer gets aperture fever, I've intermittently experienced the format fever of the photographer for the Toyo MII and routinely check eBay for one.

According to Toyo the MII will accept lens up to 800T with the standard bellows (a 1200mm bellows is available as an accessory) and will allow "max movement" with a 90mm lens on a recessed lens-board and WA bellows. It will even accept a 50mm lens!

You can get more information on the camera and accessories from Toyo's website:
http://toyoview.com/Products/810MII/810MII.html

Thomas

[timparkin]

Although I don't own an 8x10 I do own 4 4x5 Toyo's including the ROBOS. Like the astronomer gets aperture fever, I've intermittently experienced the format fever of the photographer for the Toyo MII and routinely check eBay for one.

According to Toyo the MII will accept lens up to 800T with the standard bellows (a 1200mm bellows is available as an accessory) and will allow "max movement" with a 90mm lens on a recessed lens-board and WA bellows. It will even accept a 50mm lens!

You can get more information on the camera and accessories from Toyo's website:
http://toyoview.com/Products/810MII/810MII.html

Thomas
Hi - I have the 810MII and it fits the 1200mm Nikkor tele by reversing the front standard.

[John Conway]

I had one and it was my first 8x10. I wish I hadn't sold that camera. She was a beauty and smooth as can be. I even had the reflex viewer that I bought new from Midwest photo. Jim ordered it special for me and said it was only the second one he ever ordered. I think it is the only 8x10 system that has a reflex viewer option. I think I am going to sell my Harley and buy two, a black one and a bone color model. I don't for the life of me know why I sold that camera. I wonder if they still make them new.

[Michael Kadillak]

I had one and it was my first 8x10. I wish I hadn't sold that camera. She was a beauty and smooth as can be. I even had the reflex viewer that I bought new from Midwest photo. Jim ordered it special for me and said it was only the second one he ever ordered. I think it is the only 8x10 system that has a reflex viewer option. I think I am going to sell my Harley and buy two, a black one and a bone color model. I don't for the life of me know why I sold that camera. I wonder if they still make them new.

They still do sell them new John but they are not cheap ($4,500), and used are clearly hard to come by. I have the tan model.

I owned a Kodak Master and found the Toyo 810M the updated version of this camera with some great added features. And last I checked service and parts are still available from Mamiya in New Jersey.

[John Conway]

Yeah, prices have gone up. But I am glad to hear that they are still being made. As far as service and parts, Mamiya is top notch. I once purchased a 4x5 G that was beat up. Since I live close to the service dept, I was able to drop in and get parts. Knobs, washers, etc whatever I needed they had. Great service.

[Michael Kadillak]

Yeah, prices have gone up. But I am glad to hear that they are still being made. As far as service and parts, Mamiya is top notch. I once purchased a 4x5 G that was beat up. Since I live close to the service dept, I was able to drop in and get parts. Knobs, washers, etc whatever I needed they had. Great service.

Amen John.

That is what continually bothered my about the Kodak Master. You have a 50 year old camera for which you are on your own as it relates to parts and service. My Kodak Master camera was absolutely mint and I could not bring myself to shoot with it. Sold it for top dollar and got my Toyo and have not looked back since. I have made many hundreds of images with it and it continues to function flawlessly. I tried the Wehman and I just did not like it. Sorry he is no longer in production for others that liked his design. Ditto for the Ritter as it was not my cup o tea. When you are familiar with the rigidity and the functionality of a Toyo, it sets a high standard. The closest I would make for a similar camera would be the Linhof Master Technika. Everything is where it should be and and it just puts a smile on your face.

[Frank Petronio]

No doubt the Toyo 810 Field is a great camera (and one I've never owned!) but looking at the weight, it begs the question of why not consider some of the more compact monorails like the 810 Sinar Norma or F2? Or even a Toyo G on a short rail for packing? I could get the Sinar down the 15x11x6 with a small lens mounted and I know it weighed well under 8kg.

Not looking for a fight here guys ;-) Just pointing out that Sinar would be lighter, at least as strong, while offering full, unlimited movements and expandability, the nice shutter system, etc. oh and it runs half the price too. Fast to set up and controls in the logical places too.

Also what was the deal with why Chris Jordan got rid of his? Didn't it wear out in a strange way and was uneconomical to repair?

[Michael Kadillak]

No doubt the Toyo 810 Field is a great camera (and one I've never owned!) but looking at the weight, it begs the question of why not consider some of the more compact monorails like the 810 Sinar Norma or F2? Or even a Toyo G on a short rail for packing? I could get the Sinar down the 15x11x6 with a small lens mounted and I know it weighed well under 8kg.

Not looking for a fight here guys ;-) Just pointing out that Sinar would be lighter, at least as strong, while offering full, unlimited movements and expandability, the nice shutter system, etc. oh and it runs half the price too. Fast to set up and controls in the logical places too.

Also what was the deal with why Chris Jordan got rid of his? Didn't it wear out in a strange way and was uneconomical to repair?

It comes down to logistics Frank. The package is SMALL in size and the weight actually affords the camera considerable stability in the sense that it is a base tightening only rear standard. I carry mine in a F64 backpack that has shoulder and a waist strap. Monorails while lighter occupy (the new buzz word of the year) more "space" and are not as small as a true field camera that opens up. . That is why I accept the extra weight and do not even give it a second thought. For crying out loud, we whine about a couple of pounds extra weight like it is a deal killer and then carry a half dozen extra film holders or an extra couple of lenses. It is the net "pack" weight that matters in the field. Take one lens and three holders and get a carbon fibre tripod and get up the stinking trail. Most of you guys live in the flatlands and have absolutely nothing to bitch about. Try 2,500 ft vertical in 3/4 of a mile at over 10,000 ft with a 65# pack? Come on out to Colorado and we can do it together - just be ready for a good legitimate workout.

[Frank Petronio]

I defer to first hand knowledge!

[Michael Kadillak]

I defer to first hand knowledge!

I have tried a Linhof Karden(4x5 and 5x7), A Sinar F and a Horseman 8x10 to arrive at this conclusion. Give me some extra weight in a small package any day. There is a reason why they call if a "field camera".

[John Conway]

I guess I can understand that keeping things light is a priority with many photographers but where I come from it is a non issue. I worked as a welder and iron worker for many years.Carrying steel that weighs more than me (195) in sub zero temps at seven in the morning, with a frozen beard through snow, was my world. So as far as I am concerned, aToyo 810M is a lightweight field camera.

[Neal Chaves]

I have used one for years and favor it over several other 8X10s I used previously. The OEM bellows didn't last long, but I replaced it with a "lifetime" Western Bellows that is still perfect. I also missed a carrying handle as on the Deardorff, so I added one. A word of caution here, no matter how you carry or case the camera; keep all controls loose when you fold up the camera, except for rear swing. If you put pressure on the alignment adjustments by carrying the camera or compressing it in a case, you can throw off your zeros. The weight of the camera, a few pounds one way or the other is not a significant factor when one considers the weight of all the other gear required in the field.

[koppie]

is there a way to place the Sinar LC shutter on Toyo 810M, so that barrel lens can used easily?

thx

[B.S.Kumar]

The Sinar LC shutter is used to provide Live View when using a digital back, and mounts on the front of the lens. I think you mean a Sinar Copal shutter, which unfortunately will not work with a Toyo.

Kumar

[Lachlan 717]

It wouldn't be too hard to make an adaptor to allow the Sinar Auto shutter in front of the lens board…

As to how strong this would be (i.e. whether it would take heavy lenses), I don't know.

[JosephBurke]

You could surely adapt a Sinar board mount/adapter to use on the Toyo. Heck, I use my Deardorff shutter boxes on my Toyo. Simple engineering! ...and Gaffers tape....

[koppie]

oh yes, I meant Sinar auto shutter and not LC, i got it mixed up.

I am sure it can be done after seeing this video on flickr, in fact I found Toyo offer a Sinar to Toyo 810 lens board adapter for $300. Now I wonder if there is a thrid party maker.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cr2512/5326677185/

[chacabuco]

My 810m has gone out of alignment again. I think I need to follow Neal's advice regarding keeping the knobs loose. I had it serviced by MAC group a couple of years ago, but I would prefer to do it myself. Is there anything to do besides tighten the set screws on the rear standard knobs because that doesn't seem to be holding

Rob