View Full Version : Ebony RW810E/SW410E from Japan
I've been thinking about large format for quite some time, I've tested it and I like the whole approach to photography which is so different from "point & shoot" or trying to finish a 36 exposure 35mm-film...
I love the Technica, but it's 4x5" - I don't want to go through all the hassle when I can get 2 or 4 times larger slide ! ;-)
On Photokina I handled an Ebony and I think this is "the one" - at least for me! Strange, always hated wooden cameras (I'm an Engineer, I highly suspect plastics and wood and my logical choice would have been Keith's Canham ;-)
I'm still not sure about 4x10" (smaller and "Cinemasope" ;-) or 8x10" (can shot 4x10" as well) - but I'll figure that out.
Now to my question:
I've wanted to visit Tokyo anyway and I thought about getting it from there!? Can you get it directly from Ebony? What are the prices in Yen?
I still have about 6 months to rethink my decision (that's why I don't want to contact Mr. Sakanashi directly, yet), but I just want to have all the options available.
Thank you very much!
Actually, there are 5x7 Technikas, the latest is the V version. These will give you around double the negative size of a 4x5. They are not plentiful, and neither are 5x7 film choices, I don't think you can get 5x7 slide film (but there are some 13x18cm slide films in Europe).
Anyway, I'd not advice you to get an Ebony or rare 5x7 Technika as your first LF camera unless your pockets are very deep. Half a year of using any LF camera will give you a much better idea of what you want in a camera, as well as help you figure out what format (if any) of the LF formats is for you. Size/weight, possible movements, ease of movements, wide/long lens compatibility, film choices, cost, setup time, shooting speed, GG size, viable print types and enlargements all vary with camera and/or format.
You have 6 months to your Tokyo trip, use that time to buy a used 4x5, you could easily resell it if needed.
Edit: Not related to photography, but it possible, avoid going to Tokyo in July (I used to live there). The summer in Tokyo is very hot and humid, and the rainy reason is in June-July. Less rain in August but humidity is still very high and expect 90F/32C every day. Spring and autumn are the best times to visit Japan, especially if you can time it with either the cherry blossoms ("Sakura") or autumn leaves ("Kouyou", easier to plan for).
Ed Kelsey
23-Jan-2011, 11:30
Be careful what you ask for You may get some no-name twit trying to kill your dream. I say go for it !
Steve Hamley
23-Jan-2011, 12:11
Nonsense. If you've handled it and like it, go for it. My first LF camera was a 4x5 Crown Graphic which was a gift. After that, I bought an Ebony SV45U about a decade ago, without having ever seen one, and still have it and use it.
It's true that you may change your mind and prefer an Arca, Linhof, whatever, but if you like the Ebony now there's no reason to argue that you might change your mind.
Cheers, Steve
Be careful what you ask for You may get some no-name twit trying to kill your dream. I say go for it !
We may disagree about how much sense it makes to jump into large format with a 6000$ 8x10 camera, but I'm not going to start handing out personal insults to those who do not agree with me.
If he loves the Ebony it is not like some "no-name twit" on an internet messageboard is going to change his mind anyway. Unless maybe the "no-name twit" turns him to the Technika he also loves but did not know existed in 5x7.
Thanks for the weather advice - I hate humidity (it makes my wooden cameras swell ;-).
There are even 10 8x10" Technikas, I've seen one: an ugly, huge basterd... ;-)
No, 5x7 is an odd format (more so than cutting 8x10 in half ? ;-).
I've tried several cameras and had many complaints about various things (format, weight, rigidity, smoothness) - I was only able to handle the Ebony for a rather short period of time, but I haven't found any major issues - getting a used "for testing" (non 4x5) Ebony is a tricky thing in Germany anyway, there is not even a proper large format camera dealer in the capital!
6000$ (my estimation) is very expensive for me, but I've paid about the same amount of money over the last three years on lousy Chinese consumer electronics/computers which drove me insane with lousy engineering and build quality - I'll have to spend some serious money on quality, again ;-)
So no idea about prices and Ebony Japan?
George Hart
23-Jan-2011, 14:44
So no idea about prices and Ebony Japan?
Email Hiromi and he'll tell you.
George
My guess is that Ebony do not sell a lot in their home market. Their webpage is outdated, they have no reseller links unlike for example Toyo and Wista who have up-to-date pricing and reseller information. Looking around the the stores in Tokyo that sell used large format gear, I don't think I've ever seen an Ebony camera. List price at time of introduction is available at ohban4x5.com but those are very old by now, and not available for the RW810 for example (the camera is not included on the Japanese page). Click エボニー on the left hand side, third from the top. The price is whatever is written before the 円 sign, the red text indicates reasonable second hand price (at some time...).
Sending an email to Hiromi is probably the way :)
Daniel Stone
23-Jan-2011, 19:36
if you've suspected wood and plastics, what about a Kodak Master View(usually referred to as a "KMV" on the web).
its a cast aluminum "clamshell" design, and is a very nice camera. Most of the time, bellows will go out to past 28", so lots of room for extension on close-ups, or with using longer lenses.
I have one, and its great! Bear in mind they're all over 50 years old now, but I expect to own/use mine for many more years
however: Ebonys are very nice, but the price IMO is WAAAAY to expensive. If you like it, and can afford the pricetag, go for it! But if you're budget conscious like me, you'll use what works, and save the rest of the money for film, paper, lenses, holders, etc....
and frankly, I don't baby my cameras. I don't throw them around, but I don't have to worry about gouging this expensive piece of kit if it hits a rock or something.
just my lousy $.02
-Dan
p.s. here's a link to one WITH a lens, and extra lensboards:(NOT MY CAMERA LISTING BTW...)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260725778403&category=15248&_trksid=p5197.c0.m619
Drew Wiley
23-Jan-2011, 19:42
If you can afford an Ebony, go for it. They really are the most precisely manufactured folding wooden cameras, with the highest quality hardware. But there
are also cameras less than half that price that are functionally very good. Lots of
fine choice nowadays. But save plenty of budget for filmholders and lenses.
jim kitchen
23-Jan-2011, 20:10
Dear georgl,
I own a RW810E, and I would not leave home without it. This instrument serves me well... :)
I would try to contact Don Hutton within this forum, since he may have access to, or information about used instruments, such as this.
jim k
Why don't look at Lotus cameras? They are well build cameras like Ebony.
http://www.lotusviewcamera.at/cameras/lovica_8x10_e.html
They are hard to find outside EU but I think you can find a demo unit in Germany or arrange demo in Austria.
Don't throw away 5x7(13x18) from your considerations. This format rocks for hand-held contact prints. An 5x7 camera and gear are much lighter than 8x10, close to 4x5 in size and weigth.
Got a response from Mr. Sakanashi, visiting Tokyo seems to be an option, but prices are high because of a strengthened yen!? But still no prices!
@engl
Thanks for the advice, but the prices are very strange, higher than in Germany - while prices in the US are 30% lower....
Thoughts when choosing the format
5x7 has become an exotic film-format - 8x10" is more than twice as large - both systems are heavy and difficult to handle - no additional speed or interesting lens choices, IMHO. So 5x7" is too small for the expense, IMHO.
11x14" on the other side hits the limit, the camera alone weights as much as a whole 8x10" setup, you rarely get film and you cannot use many modern lenses.
8x10" (or x10" as the panoramic alternative) is the gold standard, IMHO.
Lotus
I nearly got a used Lotus, they are claimed to be the only wooden cameras matching the build-quality of Ebony!? I don't like the look of the simple anodized aluminium and bright cherry wood - stupid reason to decide against a system, I know - but 8x10" wooden field cameras are not purely rational, anyway. I have to fall in love for it!
Later I found out that Lotus uses Delrin for tracks and drive gears. I know, the whole world loves plastic - I don't, it behaves odd when machining or under long-term conditions. Sinar switched to "high-tech-plastics" as well, and after working great for a few years, they fall apart...
Steve Hamley
26-Jan-2011, 10:01
Lotus uses brass tracks and gears for the US cameras apparently because us Americans don't like plastic. Jeff at Quality Camera in Atlanta said he believed it made no difference unless you tried to move the focus tracks by force with the lock tightened, then the plastic could strip. I'm like you, I don't like the black metal.
I actually just obtained a mahogany 5x7 Ebony and 4x5 reducing back. The camera is 1 pound more than my 4x5 so you'd have an argument saying that it's too heavy or difficult to handle. I chose 5x7 over whole plate because after using a WP Eastman #2, I felt like the camera was too close to 8x10 in bulk and size, and of course holders would be a big expense. The Ebony 5x7 will also take a Canham 617 roll back standard as the 5x7 has grafloks, so there's your panoramic format.
I find that 5x7 is a nice size for intimate contact prints. They don't have the presence that 8x10 and larger does, but they are not too small, and they work well in smaller spaces. 5x7 enlargers are readily available and not anywhere near as big as an 8x10 enlarger.
Can't use modern lenses on 11x14? Bull. How about the 210 SS XL, 355 G-Claron, and almost everything 420mm or longer? If you don't mind single coated lenses like the G-Claron, the opportunities are almost endless. The added contrast of multicoated lenses is not always your friend.
Cheers, Steve
That's a wondeful camera, Steve!
There are currently 4 or 5 modern designs (not counting XXL FineArt) from Schneider/Rodenstock which cover 11x14" at infinity - I think that's a serious difference to all the lenses able to cover 8x10".
No, I'm not a fan of single-coated lenses (by the way, the actual dynamic range measured in visible detail isn't increased by using low-contrast lenses), in fact, it would be great to maintain most of the detail and microcontrast of Leica Asph-lenses in large-format-slides, although that might not be possible.
I don't plan to optically enlarge the negatives, I've aquired a Howtek D4000 recently, which hopefully works one day...
Metal vs. Plastic
It's really difficult to judge practial long-term-quality without knowing the exact kind and amount of stress caused in the mechanical setup and it's geometric design.
But to give people a basic idea besides the average "metal is stronger than plastic"-belief:
Titanium has an E-modulus ("stiffness" or deformation caused by force) of 110GPa, Delrin has 3GPa - when titanium deforms 0.03mm, Delrin would deform ~1mm!
Regular titanium-alloys (like Ti6Al4V) have a tensile strength (force before breakdown) which is thirteen times (!!!) as high as Delrin.
These are serious, substantial differences. Delrin is a very popular construction material: it's cheap, lightweight, easy to machine and doesn't need lubrication - that's it. Even 100M$ jet fighters use mainly metal mechanics...
There are currently 4 or 5 modern designs (not counting XXL FineArt) from Schneider/Rodenstock which cover 11x14" at infinity - I think that's a serious difference to all the lenses able to cover 8x10".
Fuji and Nikon also have lenses suitable for 11x14. The big four have between them a nice diverse set of options, but of course, the smaller formats always have more. And weighs less :)
Phil Hudson
27-Jan-2011, 02:49
My recollection from owning an Ebony in the past is that while the titanium is very tough it is not exactly "smooth" in operation if that is a concern (compared to brass or delrin). Every material is a compromise.
Steve Hamley
27-Jan-2011, 07:28
The Ebony's are fine except for the rear swing on the asymmetric versions of the larger cameras. The symmetric versions swing smoothly. The only thing I can think of is that the "dovetail" in the "arc" machined into the swing plates are trying to bind on the asymmetric models and the effect is worse as the rear standard gets heavier (format gets larger), and is worse with ebony wood than mahogany.
This little arc puzzled me for a while but I finally figured it out. It's there so that the swing point is actually right on the ground glass line for the swing, even though the physical swing point - the stud and nut - are a quite a bit in front of the ground glass.
Anything besides the rear swing will wear in to the point it's silky smooth. So if anything besides the rear swing on an asymmetric version is a little rough, you just need to get off the couch and take more pictures!
Cheers, Steve
A small update on my side:
I've postponed my acquisition for the RW810E for some months and took the chance to test my 8x10 workflow with a 500€-Sinar F. What an ugly camera and horrible to work with. And I replaced my Howtek with an Eversmart Pro II - works great, at least with slides. Negatives turn out horrible...
But until I make the actual order, I won't now if I get the camera in NYC or directly from Ebony. But the Yen seem to increase value no matter what... How is that possible?
Currently I'm looking for a Rucksack and I have to get one BEFORE I get the acutal camera (I know, that's tricky)... I've found some nice ones, but most of them seem 30cm wide while the RW810E is 31.5cm wide... 1.5cm still possible or simply too small? Has somebody measured the actual width of his RW810 (like takes it the leather handle into account)?
ericpmoss
22-Dec-2011, 18:16
> Currently I'm looking for a Rucksack ...
I saw another thread that had nice looking gear, including 8x10 setups: http://photobackpacker.com/home.php
too bad, even the Ebony will not be able to help ;)
Negatives turn out horrible...
It took some more time than intended but I finally wanted to order an Ebony SW410E. I quickly got an reply that Mr. Sakanashi is out of office for a couple of days and will reply soon... That was 4 weeks and 2 further inquiries ago - no more reactions since then!?
Did anybody have recent contact with Ebony?
Dave Wooten
30-Aug-2014, 12:37
Have you touched base with Jeff at Badger Graphic Sales?
I will be in Tokyo, so the whole idea was to pick it up not at some reseller (I could do the same in Germany) but at the manufacturer. I spoke to Mr. Sakanashi 2 years ago and he said it would be no problem.
Who is the large format specialist/ reseller in Tokyo anyway?
Yodobashi Camera in the Shinjuku area of Tokyo is about the only place you can buy new large format cameras. They will take delivery of one 45SU and one SW23 on Tuesday, according to their web page. I doubt that they will remain in stock for very long.
The following URL should take you directly to the page for Ebony cameras. It's in Japanese, but you can find out the prices.
http://www.yodobashi.com/%E4%B8%AD%E5%88%A4%E3%83%BB%E5%A4%A7%E5%88%A4%E3%82%AB%E3%83%A1%E3%83%A9%E6%9C%AC%E4%BD%93/ct/53199_500000000000000301/?count=24&disptyp=02&mkrbrnds=0000007261&page=1&sorttyp=COINCIDENCE_RANKING
I was told by a Japanese friend that an order for some models can take several years to be processed, even in Japan. Ebony cameras do occasionally appear on Yahoo Auction (Japanese e-bay). By coincidence, a 45S is available for the next four days with a starting price of 150,000 yen. Follow this URL for details: http://page16.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/u68595070
It is something different to get it from the manufacturer (even if it doesn't become cheaper) directly than letting a reseller order it for you... IMHO
@nissin
Thank you!
Tim Meisburger
31-Aug-2014, 10:29
Plus you get to see the shop or factory. That alone would be super interesting...
That was the idea, but I wonder if it will happen...
Yodobashi camera is the place to go for film. Even with the Yen - Euro exchange rate quite unfavorable at the moment, huge savings are possible. And they have 5x7 slide film and 4x5 instant film in stock, not to speak of more commonly available film sizes. They also had about three 4x5 cameras on display, but on the whole, I did not see much large format equipment on my summer trip to Japan.
Yodobashi Camera is the best source in Japan for film and accessories, but when I was last there in March of this year it had few LF cameras. Unquestionably, the best place to find a large format camera in Japan is on Yahoo Auction. As an example, I bought a Wista M450 monorail in very good condition for $75 a few weeks ago. Most field cameras are reasonably priced, too. A Wista SP, for example, will often go for around $350; a Tachihara or a Horseman 45A for about $800. Linhof's fetch a premium, but are still reasonably priced. There are quite a lot of LF cameras and lenses up for grabs here. :)
I finally got an respone, apparently, there was a technical issue. I am looking forward to meeting the master himself and at least ordering the camera of my dreams! I cannot wait^^
I would order thru a distributor w/Visa/MC if I were you..just in case there is something wrong with it...Jim at Midwest is a great guy..
And yes..I ordered a 5K Ebony cam from Midwest in 2013..3 mos later..right from Japan.. it came in with issues..so be careful here...all were cosmetic issues..tooling scratches on the wood and metal all over the cam..that were the results of neglectful and poor manufacturing and QC..they/Ebony just didn't look or care..they just shipped it out anyway..so be careful..Japanese manufacturing..aint what it used to be..
And yes..we got it all straightened out in the end..I had to live with the defects..but got 3 lensboards in exchange..and yes..Ebony cheeped out on me..I wanted an extra lensboard or 2..and they flat out refused..hows that for great customer service..direct from the manufacturer..as a recompense..for crappy QC on their part..for a very expensive cam..chintzing out on ..2 extra lensboards..that cost them..basically...nothing to make..nice..
If I ordered directly from Japan..I highly doubt the end result would have been even close to satisfactory..so thx much to Jim here for seeing this thru...and being a great intermediary..
Here is an example of some scratches on the front of cam..even my almost 60 year old eyes..immediately saw these as I opened up the box..even w/o my glasses on..I was shocked..esp in lieu of the gobs of worshipfulness..heaped on this camera company..
Shades of Wisner..and at least Wisner..wouldn't have cheepened out on the lensboards..as recompense..
These kind of issues are all over the cam..
http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm78/templsounds/Ebonyfinishflaws1frontstandard_zps4124437c.jpg (http://s293.photobucket.com/user/templsounds/media/Ebonyfinishflaws1frontstandard_zps4124437c.jpg.html)
I am sorry for your experience, but I was convinced by the build quality of two different Ebony models I handled myself. Way ahead of what was presented to me by Shen Hao, Chamonix or other Chinese/ Eastern European low-cost-cameras. And aesthetically more pleasing IMHO than the metal cameras available.
I am located in Germany, using a distributor here means you cannot use or look at the camera before, the distributor will order the camera from Mr. Sakanashi for you and for 10min of work he will "earn" approx 1000-2000$ ! If the camera has a problem, he will communicate to Mr. Sakanashi... That does not make a lot of sense to me, to be honest.
I respect craftsmanship, so I spent my money where it is used to make the product - whenever possible.
Daniel Stone
23-Sep-2014, 08:48
And if you can take that German/EU dealers "cut" to purchase a return plane ticket, and a night or two in Japan while picking up your camera, I think that a bit more enjoyable than paying him for handling the telephone for you :)
Just a thought
-Dan
I am sorry for your experience, Thx bro...
but I was convinced by the build quality of two different Ebony models I handled myself. Way ahead of what was presented to me by Shen Hao, Chamonix or other Chinese/ Eastern European low-cost-cameras. And aesthetically more pleasing IMHO than the metal cameras available. You are correct there..and for a price..
I am located in Germany, using a distributor here means you cannot use or look at the camera before, Same here..
the distributor will order the camera from Mr. Sakanashi for you and for 10min of work he will "earn" approx 1000-2000$ ! Now that's interesting..is Ebony undercutting their dealers..? Or is it that you just want all your euros..to go all to the manufacturer..?
If the camera has a problem, he will communicate to Mr. Sakanashi... That does not make a lot of sense to me, to be honest. Don't say you haven't been warned bro.. If there is a problem..I wish you..much good luck!!
I respect craftsmanship, so I spent my money where it is used to make the product - whenever possible.
Suggestion..when you get your camera..really, really eyeball it..every mm..
I know.. I know..
Ebony is the greatest...yada-yada..you probably will be too high on cloud #9 when you are there..to be totally objective..
And.. I really like mine..despite the defects..
So...
Have fun man!
Just to make something clear: Mr. Sakanashi clearly stated that he is unable to underbid it's national distributors - according to him he relies on them.
But here is the price difference between a Japanese vs. German distributor:
SV810E is 874800 Yen at yodobashi (that's less than 7500€ incl. German tax) while here in Germany the same camera costs over 8930€! - that's a price difference of 1500€ or more than 1900$!
Shades of Wisner..and at least Wisner..wouldn't have cheepened out on the lensboards..as recompense..
These kind of issues are all over the cam..
That is...if you ever got...your camera form ron...who towards the end could not ship a lens board...free or not...let alone a camera..QC?.. forget about it...shellac coating?..you got it!..
Timothy Blomquist
25-Sep-2014, 16:47
That is...if you ever got...your camera form ron...who towards the end could not ship a lens board...free or not...let alone a camera..QC?.. forget about it...shellac coating?..you got it!..
I bought a Wisner Technical Field 8x10 in 1988, and took delivery in late 1989....after many phone calls and letters. The camera was fine and I just sold it last month after many years of service. I was always concerned about using heavy lenses on the front standard, which seemed the weak link in his 8x10 Technical Fields. I am really intrigued by the design of these Ebony non-folding 8x10s. These would be a quick set up, especially if a smaller lens like the 240 G-Claron is left attached. My problem with folding field cameras has always been the slow setup of un-folding the thing. I wish the price was a little lower.
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