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View Full Version : emulsion up or emulsion down? (4x5 in trays)



BetterSense
10-Jan-2011, 17:32
I used to develop in trays, but switched to hangers because of scratching. The only way I never got scratches was to develop one sheet at a time, so hangers was faster. I'm going back to one-shot development, though, so 2 liters of developer needed for deep tanks is expensive, plus I have intermittent problems with evenness, which ruins probably about as many negatives as scratching did in trays.

My last batch of negatives I developed in an 8x10 tray, 6 at a time. One of the negatives came out scratched, again. I'm not sure if I scratched it during the shuffle or during the rinse/fix. I don't want to stand in the dark shuffling negatives in fixer so I kind of leave them loose in the tray and they kind of float amongst themselves.

Between trays and hangers, I'd prefer trays because I think development is more even and it uses slightly less developer. I think I will try with the emulsion down, slow down slightly, and put the film in hangars for the fix and rinse.

John Bowen
10-Jan-2011, 17:46
Emulsion side up

MIke Sherck
10-Jan-2011, 17:47
Emulsion side down works for me, 8-12 negatives at a time in 32 oz (1 liter) of solution in an 8x10 tray.

Mike

Peter De Smidt
10-Jan-2011, 17:51
I like emulsion down, as I shuffle the stack, pulling the bottom negative out and up, turning it, and plopping it down on the top of the solution. I put the emulsion down so that when I pull the bottom film out, the corner of another sheet doesn't come into contact with the soft emulsion.

BetterSense
10-Jan-2011, 17:54
I like emulsion down, as I shuffle the stack, pulling the bottom negative out and up, turning it, and plopping it down on the top of the solution. I put the emulsion down so that when I pull the bottom film out, the corner of another sheet doesn't come into contact with the soft emulsion.

Yeah that's how I do it, but I do it with the emulsion up. I wonder if people that go with the emulsion up also shuffle the other way around (top to bottom)?

kev curry
10-Jan-2011, 18:00
Or just start using BTZS tubes and be done with it...

DanK
10-Jan-2011, 18:40
Another for emulsion up....was always worried about scratches from the tray....I run short times, with pretty constant agitation....

But, I've really only seen scratches with large trays, and also switched to trays without ribs, in case I flip one...cescolite?....I use 5x7 trays for both 4x5 and 5x7 and 'used' trays for 8x10....although normally hangers with 4x5....

Thanks,
Dan

Heroique
10-Jan-2011, 19:19
My personal solution is emulsion side up in a slosher tray.

Below are slosher trays for 4x5 & 8x10.

Scratches, be gone!

BetterSense
10-Jan-2011, 19:35
Or just start using BTZS tubes and be done with it...

I've thought about it, but I develop by inspection, so BTZS tubse are right out. I develop xray film sometimes too.

I suppose a slosher would work, but I couldn't develop a whole grafmatic at once unless I got big trays and then my solution volume is going back up....

Bob McCarthy
10-Jan-2011, 19:40
I'd suggest a smaller tray so the negatives can never fully separate.

5x7 trays work well with 4x5

Bob

Drew Wiley
10-Jan-2011, 19:49
I've tried it both ways and ended up standardizing on the "emulsion up" way. A lot
less risk of uneveness or spots from air bells it seems.

BetterSense
10-Jan-2011, 19:49
That might work with the shuffle method. When I used to use small trays with single 4x5 sheets, the edges always got overdeveloped, I assume from the developer waving off the sides of the tray.

Heroique
10-Jan-2011, 20:02
I will...slow down slightly...

One more quick idea, if you work w/ trays, is a cooler development temperature.

Keeps the emulsion a little bit harder, more resistant to scratches.

Plus, the longer development time makes “slowing down” easier.

D. Bryant
10-Jan-2011, 20:08
That might work with the shuffle method. When I used to use small trays with single 4x5 sheets, the edges always got overdeveloped, I assume from the developer waving off the sides of the tray.
With a staining developer use flat bottom trays only IF you develop your film face down. I recommend rotary developing or stand developing in tubes. Once I switched to rotary developing all scratches disappeared and processing quality approached perfection.

D. Bryant
10-Jan-2011, 20:09
That might work with the shuffle method. When I used to use small trays with single 4x5 sheets, the edges always got overdeveloped, I assume from the developer waving off the sides of the tray.

Use 5x7 trays to eliminate this problem.

Roger Thoms
10-Jan-2011, 20:30
Or just start using BTZS tubes and be done with it...

After tray processing, both shuffling and with a slosher I'm back to BTZS tubes. :)

Roger

Roger Thoms
10-Jan-2011, 20:34
I responded to without reading the whole thread, your right, certainly can't develop by inspection with tubes.

Roger

Scott Walker
10-Jan-2011, 22:04
Emulsion up, shuffle bottom to top, for 4x5 I use 5x6 trays and for 8x10 I use Patterson 8x10 trays which are also about an inch larger than the film. Six sheets at a time, shuffle once every ten seconds and gently pat top sheet down with finger tips. I don't recall ever scratching any film but I do tend to overdevelop the edges at times if I am aggressive with agitation.

Merg Ross
10-Jan-2011, 22:10
Up or Down, there is no single correct answer. The important variables are; type of tray, size of tray, and dexterity of the participant.

There was a recent thread on this subject:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=69254&page=3&highlight=developing+trays

Pay particular attention to the remarks by Doremus Scudder.

Wayne
10-Jan-2011, 23:16
Emulsion up, bottom to top. I've never scratched a negative. If you are using a slightly (or much) larger tray than the film size just keep them all rounded up and there wont be any loose corners to scratch with. The corners will all be aligned with the edges. This is about the most fun part of large format, I just love tray development.

kev curry
11-Jan-2011, 09:02
This looks interesting, haven't tried it but it looks good. You would have to sign up to see the pictures....

http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=1883

Bob McCarthy
11-Jan-2011, 10:30
I used to develop in trays, but switched to hangers because of scratching. The only way I never got scratches was to develop one sheet at a time, so hangers was faster. I'm going back to one-shot development, though, so 2 liters of developer needed for deep tanks is expensive, plus I have intermittent problems with evenness, which ruins probably about as many negatives as scratching did in trays.

My last batch of negatives I developed in an 8x10 tray, 6 at a time. One of the negatives came out scratched, again. I'm not sure if I scratched it during the shuffle or during the rinse/fix. I don't want to stand in the dark shuffling negatives in fixer so I kind of leave them loose in the tray and they kind of float amongst themselves.

Between trays and hangers, I'd prefer trays because I think development is more even and it uses slightly less developer. I think I will try with the emulsion down, slow down slightly, and put the film in hangars for the fix and rinse.

Hsve you concidered this setup

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/alternative-developing/

1 Liter to fill tank to do 6 sheets of film. I've done 2 runs in same chemistry occasionally.

I have 3 tanks/holders in very nice, near new condition.

I went primarily 8x10 so I haven't used them in a year.

anyway it works nicely and is perfect for stand development if thats your thing.

bob

John Berry
13-Jan-2011, 11:32
I'd suggest a smaller tray so the negatives can never fully separate.

5x7 trays work well with 4x5

Bob Not really. Overdeveloped edges all too easy

Bob McCarthy
14-Jan-2011, 06:21
Overdeveloped edges come from technique.

I've used the tried and true method of pulling bottom to top with occasional and gentle corner lifting.

Never surge marks.

Do not aggressively slosh stuff in a tray and expect perfect negatives.

Bob