Will I Need a Permit to Photograph in DV?

[Richard K.]

Or Joshua Tree, etc.?

I am 100% amateur but I have large equipment
and use a tripod.

How much are permits and can you obtain one ad hoc at the Visitor Centre?

[Kevin Crisp]

No you shouldn't need a permit for non-professional photography. On any given morning there are 15+ tripods set up at a certain famous sunrise spot.

[Richard K.]

No you shouldn't need a permit for non-professional photography. On any given morning there are 15+ tripods set up at a certain famous sunrise spot.

Thanks Kevin but from what I've read in another thread (By QT Luong), they may ask me, based on the tripod and large camera, to prove I'm not amateur and that the photos are not for future commercial use? How on earth could I do that? :) I'm probably being over cautious but that could be a holiday ruiner! Thanks for all your advice on my upcoming trip!!

[Kevin Crisp]

I was asked once, in a state park, and I showed them my business card from my actual profession. If you don't have a card, show them a pay stub. If you're retired, show them your CARP card and tell them you use a tripod because your hands shake. (Is there a Canadian Association of Retired Persons?)

When you get your backcountry permit (at the facility near Furnace Creek, I assume) confirm that an amateur doesn't need a permit. If somebody asks, say you confirmed at Furnace Creek you didn't need one because you are an amateur. There are so many photographers with LF in Death Valley an encounter isn't going to be a first time event for a NPS employee. Pay the fee and get the entrance receipt for your dashboard.

These threads give the impression that the place is crawling with law enforcement, which is certainly not the truth. I saw a ranger once at Racetrack, and that was because there was some kind of motorcycle race going on. Never at Agueberry (sp) never at Skidoo, never at Dante's View, never anyone where else other than going the opposite direction on a paved highway.

There is another thread I haven't read yet on permits that would probably answer your questions.

[RPNugent]

I have never had a problem using large format and a tripod at any location in DV. The only problem is the crowds at some locations and the people who ask if your 4x5 is a Hasselblad.

[Jim Becia]

Or Joshua Tree, etc.?

I am 100% amateur but I have large equipment
and use a tripod.

How much are permits and can you obtain one ad hoc at the Visitor Centre?

Richard,

No permit is needed in a national park when photographing unless you meet one on the following guidelines. The following is taken from the NPS site.

"When is a permit needed?

All commercial filming activities taking place within a unit of the National Park system require a permit. Commercial filming includes capturing a moving image on film and video as well as sound recordings.

Still photographers require a permit when

1. the activity takes place at location(s) where or when members of the public are generally not allowed; or

2. the activity uses model(s), sets(s), or prop(s) that are not a part of the location’s natural or cultural resources or administrative facilities; or

3. Park would incur additional administrative costs to monitor the activity. "

So unless you are doing one on the 3 things listed, no need for a permit. Jim Becia

[Richard K.]

Thanks very much for the reassurance guys! Alrighty then, I can go ahead with this great trip...just exactly 4 weeks today...:D

[Eric Woodbury]

A friend of mine was questioned in DV once. So he asked the ranger, "Do you like to fish?" "Yes", says the ranger. "Do you have a boat?", my friend asks him. "Yes", he says. "And does that make you a professional?" End of questions.

These days, professional equipment does not a commercial shoot make. Also, I don't think you have to prove your NOT something. It would seem the responsibility of the law to prove you are something, but that argument will get you nowhere when trying to make a photograph.

In 33 years of going every year, I've never been questioned or bothered (except to kick me out of a spot where I should not have camped).

[Kirk Gittings]

Jim, Unfortunately those rules will not protect you from park personnel demanding permits who don't know or understand their own rules. I have been harassed at a few national and Arizona state parks by personnel who were self righteous and completely clueless about their own rules. That is why I have taken to always carrying a copy with me! This is a necessity IMO!

I have a particular problem in that I am a commercial photographer, well known in some areas, so showing a business card gets me into more trouble, though I never deny it. But a copy of the NPS guidelines below have helped in a couple of recent events.



Richard,

No permit is needed in a national park when photographing unless you meet one on the following guidelines. The following is taken from the NPS site.

"When is a permit needed?

All commercial filming activities taking place within a unit of the National Park system require a permit. Commercial filming includes capturing a moving image on film and video as well as sound recordings.

Still photographers require a permit when

1. the activity takes place at location(s) where or when members of the public are generally not allowed; or

2. the activity uses model(s), sets(s), or prop(s) that are not a part of the location’s natural or cultural resources or administrative facilities; or

3. Park would incur additional administrative costs to monitor the activity. "

So unless you are doing one on the 3 things listed, no need for a permit. Jim Becia

[Kevin Crisp]

Some business cards are more helpful than others.

[Jim Becia]

Jim, Unfortunately those rules will not protect you from park personnel demanding permits who don't know or understand their own rules. I have been harassed at a few national and Arizona state parks by personnel who were self righteous and completely clueless about their own rules. That is why I have taken to always carrying a copy with me! This is a necessity IMO!

I have a particular problem in that I am a commercial photographer, well known in some areas, so showing a business card gets me into more trouble, though I never deny it. But a copy of the NPS guidelines below have helped in a couple of recent events.

Kirk,

I'm not disputing the fact that maybe some national park personnel might be over zealous. The fact remains that we large format photographers do not need a permit under the conditions stated above.

My anecdotal evidence in my 15 years of using my large format equipment in many national parks has been just fine. I have never been approached by any park personnel when using my 5x7 or 8x10, but, I can only speak for myself. Jim Becia

[rdenney]

Just reread The Monkey Wrench Gang before your trip. That will put you in the right frame of mind for having an impromptu debate with a park ranger.

Rick "let us know how it turns out" Denney

[Richard K.]

Just reread The Monkey Wrench Gang before your trip. That will put you in the right frame of mind for having an impromptu debate with a park ranger.

Rick "let us know how it turns out" Denney

I was gonna bring Desert Solitaire with me but yeah...Monkey Wrench Gang...sure...time to reread it!

[Kirk Gittings]

I have never been approached by any park personnel when using my 5x7 or 8x10, but, I can only speak for myself. Jim Becia

Must be my charming personality:eek:

[Drew Wiley]

Maybe they're profiling suspected terrorists ... I've only been questioned once - by a new ranger over here in the Golden Gate area. I've propped up view cameras in all kinds of Nat'l parks and never even a wince from a ranger, at least once they figured out it's a camera and not survey equip. I'm more worried out some ten-year old Dennis the Menace type with a slingshot aimed at my groundglass. Almost had that happen at Pt Lobos State Park once. Generally I avoid popular overlooks and turnouts altogether. Who needs another damn postcard anyway? But Kirk might still be haunted
by that old Ed Abbey connection ...

[Brian Ellis]

I don't know how many Park Service rangers there are in DV but it's not like there's an army of them and DV is huge. The odds of a ranger seeing you and asking for a permit seem like they'd be very very small. The only time I've been stopped was actually in Florida State park. When I was asked whether I was a professional I just said "if you saw my pictures you wouldn't be asking that question." He laughed and that was the end of it.

[John Berry]

I don't know about DV but at Mt Rainier where I have been shooting LF since 1970, I have never been asked. I did have one ranger get out in a huff and mentioned something about not getting permits then got back in his car and left. If ask I just tell them "I'm a Vietnam PTSD vet that gets paid to stay out of society" ( in the same vain as Brian about his quality ). Usually that is enough back and forth to reach their satisfaction level. If they just have an attitude and want to use me as an emotional whipping post I tell them when they are done carping, go fix me a sandwich.

[Jan Pietrzak]

Richard K,

I can only echo the words of the other posters. Kirk and I have been through this. Down load copies of the NPS and SPS rules and carry them with you. If you still get sighted. Go to the park office, and talk to the head ranger. This is the only way that they learn. Know the rules, have the rule, and use them.

Oh, and don't get off the trails at Point Lobos, you will get fined, he he he

Have a great trip and enjoy Death Valley and the rest of the Parks.

Being a Canadian I am not sure if you can get a Golden Eagle Pass, it is a good deal if you are going to more that one park (only good for NPS stuff)

Jan Pietrzak

[Robert Brummitt]

[QUOTE=Kevin Crisp;669156]I was asked once, in a state park, and I showed them my business card from my actual profession. If you don't have a card, show them a pay stub."


If I was to show a ranger my pay stub, he or she just might feel sorry for me, refund the entrance fee and give me some cash to boot."
:p :p :p

[keith english]

The way the NPS rules read, you can shoot with LF all day, but you can't shoot video with your smart phone. Is that the intent? Is all video and audio recording prohibited? That would include most new DSLR's.

[tgtaylor]

Richard K,

Being a Canadian I am not sure if you can get a Golden Eagle Pass, it is a good deal if you are going to more that one park (only good for NPS stuff)

Jan Pietrzak

The NPS raised the price of the annual pass from $40 to $80 and made it valid in all locations as the Golden Eagle was.

[Richard Raymond]

Richard,
Anyone can buy the America the Beautiful – National Parks and Federal Recreational Lands Pass – Annual Pass - Cost $80. This is available to the general public and provides access to all National Parks and other Federal Fee areas. There are a number of national fee areas managed by the Bureau of Land Management such as the Red Rocks area just west of Las Vegas. It does not cover state parks. However, the Senior America the Beautiful pass is only available to US citizens and permanent US residents. With park entrance fees generally in the $20 to $30 range each for a 7 day pass the annual pass is a good deal.
Regards,
Ric