5x7 field camera and extreme wide lenses

[Peter Cast]

Hello.

In my last 5 years of landscape photography I did almost all images using focal lenth between 18-24mm with 35mm film camera. I am very interested in starting large format photography which means I need to buy a camera. My choice is 5x7 format due to the reasonable size to make contact prints.

The lenses best fitting my needs are:

Nikkor SW 90/8 or Super Symmar XL 80/4.5

and Super-Symmar XL 110/5.6


I would like to ask if anyone here has practical experiences with super wide lenses in 5x7 photography and what camera would you recomend to buy.

To be honest I would prefer traditional wooden field cameras in lower price levels rather than studio rail cameras. From new camera types I like Shen Hao more than Walker ABS Wide. I still dont know if Shen Hao can make the work.
I do not know if older types of cameras like Kodak, Burke&James or Deardorff could work with super wide lenses.

I will appreciate sharing your experiences and helping me choosing proper camera.

Thank you.

Peter.

[Bill_1856]

5x7 is too small for satisfactory contact printing. (50 years ago they seemed HUGE, but times change.)

[Vaughn]

5x7 is too small for satisfactory contact printing. (50 years ago they seemed HUGE, but times change.)

On walls with limited viewing distances, and for hand-held prints, 5x7 rocks!

I would keep yourself open for a change in the way you and your camera sees. The 5x7 experience and the images often show a difference from what math seems to indicate from comparing film diagonals, angle of views and focal lengths. I would suggest exploring the format with a wide lens, 110 to 150mm perhaps, before going super-wide.

I think it would be easier to learn the camera movements and focusing using a little longer lens to begin with.

Your mileage may differ -- but beware, 5x7 is the gateway drug of ULF! One day you'll be in the shadows, shooting a 150 onto 11x14...

Vaughn

[Gudmundur Ingolfsson]

You would need a camera precise enough for such a short lens and that can focus it on infinity and that can take a fresnel lens for you to see the picture on the ground glass. Go for a 5x7" monorails,that are easy to find on German E-bay.

[cjbroadbent]

DIY. Needs just a few pieces of plywood and a 120mm Super Angulon. Fixed front raise for Landscape. (A re-post, sorry).
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_OR3U2BmIDuk/S3KjO93AxII/AAAAAAAAEDI/ocHpuWdDPho/s400/box1.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_OR3U2BmIDuk/S12hNIXzeYI/AAAAAAAADe0/wXeVN0AGusQ/s800/box2.jpg

[DolphinDan]

Hi Peter,

I am strictly an amateur. My experience is with 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10 formats. I prefer 5x7 over 8x10 for landscapes because the scanned images are very close in quality (to my unprofessional eyes) and the 5x7 camera and gear are much lighter than 8x10. I do love 8x10, but boy that is a heavy load to carry.

In 5x7 I use an EBONY SV57 and a TOYO 45AX with a 5x7 back. I use the EBONY around where I live (Arizona), and the TOYO when traveling. I love my EBONY. However, EBONYs are pricey, so you probably want something else to start. I picked up my TOYO used on the FOR SALE forum here and purchased a TOYO 5x7 back and had SK GRIMES convert the back to fit the camera. I like the TOYO, but it does not have all of the movements (particularly rear rise and fall) that the EBONY does. I don't know anything about SHEN HAO or CHAMONIX or the other brands. You might talk to Jeff at BADGER GRAPHIC for some ideas. And of course check this website :-)

When photographing landscapes I usually use a 90mm lens; either a Nikon SW f4.5 with the TOYO or the Rodenstock GRANDAGON-N f4.5 with the EBONY (Why 2 lenses? Because I am too lazy to switch lensboards when switching cameras-the TOYO uses Crown Graphic lensboards.). I find that they both produce similar quality images. Obviously the Nikon is much less expensive. I also used the Schneider SUPER-ANGULON XL 90mm f5.6 lens but found it bulky, particularly with 4x5 (I started with an EBONY RW45 camera). And it is really expensive. I prefer the 4.5 lenses to the f8 lenses because I find f8 lenses to be dark and harder to focus and see the image on the ground glass. For this reason I recommend trying out these lenses before buying them, or make sure you can return the lens.

I occasionally use the Schneider SUPER-SYMMAR XL 110mm lens with my EBONY; mainly when photographing trees. It works fine.

I had the Schneider SUPER-SYMMAR XL 80mm lens and did not like it. I mainly used it with 4x5 and found that it had really intense light falloff. Just my personal preference/experience.

For photographing temples and pyramids like at Chichen Itza or Uxmal (where you sometimes cannot back up enough to use a 90mm lens) I use a Nikon 75mm f4.5 lens with my TOYO. It *occasionally* (something to do with focusing at infinity versus closer up) vignettes on me. Otherwise, it works great.

I have a Schneider SUPER-ANGULON XL 72mm lens. It works fine, but I do not use it much. And it is also a little pricey.

If you want an idea of how focal lengths convert between 35mm and 5x7, check out this webpage:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF5x7in.html

Unless you know that you will shoot ultra wide angle, I would start with a 90mm lens, either the Nikon (f4.5 or f8) or the Rodenstock (4.5 or 6.8). Look at the FOR SALE forum on this website or KEH.COM.

Contact prints: I find that 8x10 prints are as small as I feel comfortable with. I encourage you to check out some 5x7 and 8x10 contact prints before deciding on which format to use.

You did not say if you are shooting color or B&W film. Color film for 5x7 is hard to find and expensive. I order mine from JAPAN EXPOSURES in Japan. The alternative is buying 8x10 film and cutting it down to 5x7. Something to consider before you buy your camera gear.

That is my 2 cents' worth. Hope it helps.

Namaste
Daniel


Hello.

In my last 5 years of landscape photography I did almost all images using focal length between 18-24mm with 35mm film camera. I am very interested in starting large format photography which means I need to buy a camera. My choice is 5x7 format due to the reasonable size to make contact prints.

The lenses best fitting my needs are:

Nikkor SW 90/8 or Super Symmar XL 80/4.5

and Super-Symmar XL 110/5.6


I would like to ask if anyone here has practical experiences with super wide lenses in 5x7 photography and what camera would you recommend to buy.

To be honest I would prefer traditional wooden field cameras in lower price levels rather than studio rail cameras. From new camera types I like Shen Hao more than Walker ABS Wide. I still don't know if Shen Hao can make the work.
I do not know if older types of cameras like Kodak, Burke&James or Deardorff could work with super wide lenses.

I will appreciate sharing your experiences and helping me choosing proper camera.

Thank you.

Peter.

[Ken Lee]

Wouldn't you want a camera which accommodates a bag bellows ?

Some field cameras allow for interchangeable bellows. Most monorail cameras, by design, allow them.

Another option is to ask someone like Shen Hao to make a camera for you. They have done "one-offs" for people.

Yet another option is to work with someone like Richard Ritter (http://www.lg4mat.net/index.html).

On a separate note: 5x7 is really the bottom-end of contact printing. It may later strike you later as ironic, to drag around Large Format equipment capable of multi-hundred megapixel quality, only to make such small prints. Once you make an 11x14 from a 5x7 negative (via enlargement or scanning) you will see that the format offers you many more options.

[cjbroadbent]

Ken, more than 2 cents worth! Sound advice.
I would got for the 110 Super Symmar too if I ever rebuilt the box.

[Andrew]

I have a Deardorff 5x7 [aka 4x5 special] and I recently picked up a Caltar-II N 90mm/6.8 which I believe is a rebadged grandagon so I have high hopes for this bit of kit though I haven't taken it out yet and I can only comment on the mechanical aspects.

yes, I have a fresnel on the back and it makes a big difference so I'd strongly agree that you should get one for wide angle on a field camera!

the deardorff will definitely focus infinity with the 90mm lens and leave a little bit of play in the mechanism for movements. For starters, the tfront standard has about 15mm rise and fall built into it via a sliding plate mechanism. THat movement is limited by the back of the lens hitting the inside of the standard so you might get a bit more or les depending on the dimensions of the lens' rear element but the mechanism maxs out at 25mm. After that there's a little bit of play for swing and tilt but only about 5 degrees of either and probably less if you try both movements together

straight on, the 'dorff can only get a further 14mm of bellows compression before the camera parts start knocking together so I think that's cutting it too fine for investing in an 80mm lens unless you could try it on a camera first

fwiw, I've seen some fantastic contact prints from 5x7... the only limiting factor is that they're only 5x7 but big isn't always better is it !!!

addit:
I couldn't see the edge of the image circle with the 5x7 back on the camera so I put the lens on my 8x10 and it definitely has more coverage than required for 5x7

[Ole Tjugen]

Some pictures look a lot better as 5x7" contact prints than in any other size!

A 90mm is wide on 5x7", but not really extemely wide. An 80mm or even better a 72mm XL is getting there!

Some older cameras can take these short lenses, some can not. My best ultrawide camera is an ancient unnamed German plate camera, 24x30cm (9 1/2" x 12"), which comes with a number of plate format reduction adapters. Just to see if it could work, I put a 47mm SA XL on it - and had no difficulties focussing to infinity with it. That, with a 13x18cm plate insert, is as close to a perfect WA camera as i have seem. since there are ample movements on the lens board there is no need for bag bellows, either.

[Bill_1856]

I did not mean to imply that 5x7 isn't a great size. I love the format; I love the ground glass large enough to visualize the entire image; I love the size and weight to cart around (compared to 8x10). I just recently bought a near-mint 5x7 Kodak 2D, and can hardly wait to use it.
But for me the size is just too small to enjoy as a contact print. One of my most favorite landscape images is by Paula Chamlee, was taken in 5x7 and is only available in a contact print. I would love to purchase a print, but at that size it loses the feeling for me.
Here is a link. Size it to 4.5x6.5" on your monitor, and see if you don't agree with me.
http://lodimapress.com/Photos/M&P%20BOOKS/T1/16.%2057-0006-04-14.jpg

[Andrew]

One of my most favorite landscape images is by Paula Chamlee, was taken in 5x7 and is only available in a contact print. I would love to purchase a print, but at that size it loses the feeling for me.


how about this for a deal... you pay for a print and I'll put it on my wall ! :)

[Andrew]

how did you do that? A recessed board??
I definitely can't focus a 65mm on my 5x7 because the bellows won't compress enough to focus infinity
I've read that they've used a variety of materials foe bellows over the years so maybe your bellows are made from a finer material and compress more than mine?

[schafphoto]

A used Cambo 5x7 if you can find one. Cambo has a very deep recessed board, Bag bellows are available. The square rail can be cut to any length with a hack saw once you establish your longest need. I love my 72XL. I would get a Walker ABS 5x7 wide with the bag bellows and the recessed lensboard if wide was your goal and you had a budget.

[Ross Chambers]

It's mainly because of my cack hands in setting the camera up (tilting the base board and bringing the back and lens to vertical, I know) but I find it quite easy to inadvertently include the base board in shot with a Fuji 105 mm lens on a Shen Hao FCL 57A. The length of the base board and the small distance between a wide lens and the back element do require some caution with wide lenses. Movements with standard bellows are quite limited too.

I can't comment on other 5x7s.

Regards - Ross

[Martin Miksch]

A used Cambo 5x7 if you can find one. Cambo has a very deep recessed board, Bag bellows are available...

for field use its very heavy

[Scott Davis]

Look into a Canham 5x7 woodfield. I've had mine for several years now and I love it. You can focus a pretty wide lens (90mm at least, probably wider) to infinity with the standard bellows, and still have some movements. There is a bag bellows for it if you want to go wider. Very light weight, and should you get the urge to go bigger/different in format, the rear standards are interchangeable, allowing you to get a 4x10 or 5x12 or even a whole plate back. I've got a 5x12 back for mine and that's how I shoot it most of the time now, but I do switch it back every once in a while.

[Peter Cast]

Hi Peter,

I am strictly an amateur. My experience is with 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10 formats. I prefer 5x7 over 8x10 for landscapes because the scanned images are very close in quality (to my unprofessional eyes) and the 5x7 camera and gear are much lighter than 8x10. I do love 8x10, but boy that is a heavy load to carry.

In 5x7 I use an EBONY SV57 and a TOYO 45AX with a 5x7 back. I use the EBONY around where I live (Arizona), and the TOYO when traveling. I love my EBONY. However, EBONYs are pricey, so you probably want something else to start. I picked up my TOYO used on the FOR SALE forum here and purchased a TOYO 5x7 back and had SK GRIMES convert the back to fit the camera. I like the TOYO, but it does not have all of the movements (particularly rear rise and fall) that the EBONY does. I don't know anything about SHEN HAO or CHAMONIX or the other brands. You might talk to Jeff at BADGER GRAPHIC for some ideas. And of course check this website :-)

When photographing landscapes I usually use a 90mm lens; either a Nikon SW f4.5 with the TOYO or the Rodenstock GRANDAGON-N f4.5 with the EBONY (Why 2 lenses? Because I am too lazy to switch lensboards when switching cameras-the TOYO uses Crown Graphic lensboards.). I find that they both produce similar quality images. Obviously the Nikon is much less expensive. I also used the Schneider SUPER-ANGULON XL 90mm f5.6 lens but found it bulky, particularly with 4x5 (I started with an EBONY RW45 camera). And it is really expensive. I prefer the 4.5 lenses to the f8 lenses because I find f8 lenses to be dark and harder to focus and see the image on the ground glass. For this reason I recommend trying out these lenses before buying them, or make sure you can return the lens.

I occasionally use the Schneider SUPER-SYMMAR XL 110mm lens with my EBONY; mainly when photographing trees. It works fine.

I had the Schneider SUPER-SYMMAR XL 80mm lens and did not like it. I mainly used it with 4x5 and found that it had really intense light falloff. Just my personal preference/experience.

For photographing temples and pyramids like at Chichen Itza or Uxmal (where you sometimes cannot back up enough to use a 90mm lens) I use a Nikon 75mm f4.5 lens with my TOYO. It *occasionally* (something to do with focusing at infinity versus closer up) vignettes on me. Otherwise, it works great.

I have a Schneider SUPER-ANGULON XL 72mm lens. It works fine, but I do not use it much. And it is also a little pricey.

If you want an idea of how focal lengths convert between 35mm and 5x7, check out this webpage:

http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses/LF5x7in.html

Unless you know that you will shoot ultra wide angle, I would start with a 90mm lens, either the Nikon (f4.5 or f8) or the Rodenstock (4.5 or 6.8). Look at the FOR SALE forum on this website or KEH.COM.

Contact prints: I find that 8x10 prints are as small as I feel comfortable with. I encourage you to check out some 5x7 and 8x10 contact prints before deciding on which format to use.

You did not say if you are shooting color or B&W film. Color film for 5x7 is hard to find and expensive. I order mine from JAPAN EXPOSURES in Japan. The alternative is buying 8x10 film and cutting it down to 5x7. Something to consider before you buy your camera gear.

That is my 2 cents' worth. Hope it helps.

Namaste
Daniel

Thank you Daniel, its more than 2 cents worh.
I agree with you about the darkness using Nikkor 8 against 4,5 when focusing. But I also consider using filters, which are becoming quite expensive with bigger lenses. On the other hand I take most of my pictures on day breaks in "bad light conditions". I hope good fresnel coul help in combination with Nikkor 8.
Is your Toyo camera particular type or is it common field camera?

Sinceraly.

Peter.

[Peter Cast]

Wouldn't you want a camera which accommodates a bag bellows ?

Some field cameras allow for interchangeable bellows. Most monorail cameras, by design, allow them.

Another option is to ask someone like Shen Hao to make a camera for you. They have done "one-offs" for people.

Yet another option is to work with someone like Richard Ritter (http://www.lg4mat.net/index.html).

On a separate note: 5x7 is really the bottom-end of contact printing. It may later strike you later as ironic, to drag around Large Format equipment capable of multi-hundred megapixel quality, only to make such small prints. Once you make an 11x14 from a 5x7 negative (via enlargement or scanning) you will see that the format offers you many more options.

Hello Ken.

Sure I know about the interchangable bellows and have no prolem with them.
If needed so that the lens work fine I get it.

Sincerely. Peter.

[swmcl]

Peter,

I'm running a Shen Hao HZX57-IIAT.

The front lensboard (the large one) is a 140mm Sinar equivalent.

It takes a bag bellows.

You can buy a recessed 140mm lensboard on the bay from Virtual Village - Hong Kong (I think) that is recessed by 25mm. It is also a square recess not a round one so this allows you lots of finger room in comparison. I have a Grandagon 90mm that has oodles of room to move on this camera. I think you will be OK with 80mm lenses.

The camera also has a number of adaptions for other formats like 4x5 and 6x17.

I am yet to see a more versatile 5x7 camera.

The only issue is that many field cameras will not allow you to move the rear standard up towards the front standard. This means the bed of the camera has a very good chance of being part of your composition on wide angle shots !! I think a little woodwork on your part would change this situation if it were a problem.

No camera can do everything but this one is close.

I recommend it.

Rgds,

Steve

[cjbroadbent]

I'll have another go. Do it yourself!
With super-wide lenses the ground glass is pretty useless for viewing and focus is uncertain.
The normal paraphernalia between lens and film-holder just gets in the way.
All you really need is a spirit-level screwed on with accuracy and a wire frame viewer.
Fixed focus, fixed up-shift. Spirit-levels and quick-release top and bottom.
I've been through all this before and nearly bought the Fotoman or the Gowland point-and-shoot. I ended up doing it myself because these two P&S had the lens centered. You can't do much landscape without shift unless you mount the rig in top of a van (I'm not a 'pebbles in the foreground' photographer).
Once I found an old Arca 5x7 spring back and a Linhof board, a pair if levels and a pair of Manfrotto quick-releases, it took me 2 days to glue the things together.
The front end only got nailed after testing focus at night on a far-away street lamp.
Here's Fotoman, Gowland and my box.

[Peter Cast]

Peter,

I'm running a Shen Hao HZX57-IIAT.

The front lensboard (the large one) is a 140mm Sinar equivalent.

It takes a bag bellows.

You can buy a recessed 140mm lensboard on the bay from Virtual Village - Hong Kong (I think) that is recessed by 25mm. It is also a square recess not a round one so this allows you lots of finger room in comparison. I have a Grandagon 90mm that has oodles of room to move on this camera. I think you will be OK with 80mm lenses.

The camera also has a number of adaptions for other formats like 4x5 and 6x17.

I am yet to see a more versatile 5x7 camera.

The only issue is that many field cameras will not allow you to move the rear standard up towards the front standard. This means the bed of the camera has a very good chance of being part of your composition on wide angle shots !! I think a little woodwork on your part would change this situation if it were a problem.

No camera can do everything but this one is close.

I recommend it.

Rgds,

Steve

Thank you Steve.
I thought I could make some works that improve movements of rear standard. Good to hear that 90mm works on Shen Hao. Do you use bag bellow?
Regards.
Peter.

[JC Kuba]

It's mainly because of my cack hands in setting the camera up (tilting the base board and bringing the back and lens to vertical, I know) but I find it quite easy to inadvertently include the base board in shot with a Fuji 105 mm lens on a Shen Hao FCL 57A. The length of the base board and the small distance between a wide lens and the back element do require some caution with wide lenses. Movements with standard bellows are quite limited too.

I can't comment on other 5x7s.

Regards - Ross

When you say sometimes you get the base board in a shot with the 57A and the 105mm, is that in the horizontal mode? Is that with the standard bellows, and would a wide angle bellows help?

JC

[DolphinDan]

Peter,

I use a TOYO 45AX metal field camera; I think it is an older model. The 5x7 back was custom rigged as I mentioned previously. The original TOYO 5x7 backs are hard to find. A new TOYO 5x7 camera is about US$1500, and my understanding is that you have to order it from the factory in Japan. Ask Dirk at JAPAN EXPOSURES for more info.

Namaste
Daniel

[Don Dudenbostel]

I agree with the Canham wood as a great wide camera. I have a 5x7 and also the bag bellows and can use my 72xl on it. The 72xl Schneider SA, 90 Nikkor 4.5 and 120 Nikkor make excellent super wide lenses. The Schneider or Rodenstock equivalent in 90 nand 120/121 are excellent lenses too.

[swmcl]

Hi Peter,

I must admit to not using the bag bellows because even at full compression there seemed to be enough room - especially with the ~25mm recessed lensboard I mentioned.

I have only recently found the 25mm recessed lensboard. Before that I was using a smaller lensboard with a recess of only 12mm that was quite tight as far as movements is concerned. Perhaps the bag bellows would have been appropriate in this instance.

Those who 'make their own' do have a point also if a point-n-shoot style is your thing. There are real advantages in this style of camera for landscapes. The Shen Hao is just so very adaptable and capable ...

Each to his own!

Cheers,

[FpJohn]

DIY. Needs just a few pieces of plywood and a 120mm Super Angulon. Fixed front raise for Landscape. (A re-post, sorry).



Great! Economy of means.

yours
FPJ

[jb7]

Dammit Christopher, as if I didn't have enough camera building projects already- without having to contemplate a 2 day 72XL P&S project- If I had the holders and the film I'd start tomorrow-

Maybe it's only a WTB away...

[Ed Kelsey]

I was seriously thinking about 5x7 until I saw that Fuji is getting out of that size in Velvia and Provia. I'm not into B&W so thats that !

I think the 110 XL would be great on 5x7, I have used it extensively on 4x5 and it is about perfect. I probably could even use say a Super Symmar HM 150 on 5x7 and get about the same field of view.

[Peter Cast]

Ok guys.
Thanks a lot for your contributions. I must say after several weeks of observing ebay that I would be happy getting monorail kit for good deal. Wooden field cameras seems to be pretty expensive and I will rather spend extra money on lenses than a folding camera. I am young and strong :) ! After all lf 5x7 cameras seem to me like a very rare species at used camera market.
Sincerely.
Peter.