3-way ball-heads (Arca-Swiss Z2/B2 and FLM Centerball 58)

[dh003i]

I'm looking at some of the higher end ball-heads that support independently locking the axis' of control, like the Arca-Swiss Monoball Z2 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/367752-REG/Arca_Swiss_8010017_Monoball_Z2_3_Way_Ballhead.html) or the FLM Centerball 58 FTQR (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/288482-REG/FLM_FLMCB58FTQR_Centerball_58_FTQR.html). These seem like really nice heads, and I've read that (at least for the Z2), they're great for large-format and very sturdy, yet silky smooth. They have enormous off-axis weight tolerances (over 100 lbs).

Currently, I just got a Gitzo G1570M (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/170918-REG/Gitzo_G1570M.html), rated for 22 lbs (I'm really surprised that such a large 3-way head can't hold more). It is very nice, high quality...but tilting it left and right is rather stiff. I'm not sure how easy it'd be to get fine adjustments for leveling.

So hence I'm thinking about the above-mentioned "ballheads" (really 3-way heads that happen to use balls, but allow individual control along all of the axis', just like a 3-way head). The only thing I'm concerned about if the baseplate. I bought the Gitzo G1570M to replace my Bogen 3-way head with hexplate (I think it is the 3022); the Bogen is a solid head, but I've found that the camera can rotate along the hexplate, no matter how tight I try to make it...mainly because there is only one screw. Especially with my large format 4x5 monorail, but also even with my Olympus E-3 DSLR when using long lenses, I have this problem of the camera slipping on the plate due to torque.

Hence why I got the G1570M. It has a long mounting plate with multiple screws, so for a monorail, it could be secured in two places, eliminating any possibility of the camera slipping from its orientation on the plate. For the FLM head, there is a least a long(er) plate with multiple screws (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/288487-REG/FLM_FLMQRP_Quick_Release_Plate.html). What about for the Arca-Swiss Z2?

[Peter De Smidt]

Really Right Stuff makes a boatload of Arca compatible plates. Their quality is first rate.

[vinny]

Really Right Stuff makes a boatload of Arca compatible plates. Their quality is first rate.
I was just in their shop earlier this week, nice people. New leveling head coming out too.
but watch out since they're compatible but not the exact same size as arca plates. Not a big deal if you have screw lock heads but a pain if you have the arca "flip lock" mechanism (which I strongly do not recommend) since you'll have to adjust if switching between cameras/plates.

[Pete Roody]

What camera are you using? I have the Arca Z2 and a Ries J-250. I prefer the Ries with everything except my Arca 8x10. For most field cameras, the Ries is a better head.

[Jeff Keller]

Most of the AS, RRS, Kirk, etc plates either have a lip or multiple screws to prevent rotation. I switched to AS style quick releases because the rubber padded manfroto plates wouldn't hold long telephone lenses steady enough. I can't imagine anything that would convince me to switch from AS style quik releases.

[dh003i]

I have a Linhof Supercolor 4x5 monorail, and am going to get the Wehman 8x10.

Thanks for all of the advise so far.

Jeff, the issue you mention about the rubber padded manfroto plates not holding long telephoto lenses steady enough is I think the same issue I've had with my 4x5, and also with a 70-300mm on my Oly E-3.

[dh003i]

I was just in their shop earlier this week, nice people. New leveling head coming out too.
but watch out since they're compatible but not the exact same size as arca plates. Not a big deal if you have screw lock heads but a pain if you have the arca "flip lock" mechanism (which I strongly do not recommend) since you'll have to adjust if switching between cameras/plates.

The Arca Swiss Z2 only has a Quick-Release version with the flip lock, though, right?

[Scotty230358]

I had a Gitzo 1570m and experienced the same problem with the left and right leveling. The tightness made leveling the head a chore. Fore and aft leveling was easier probably because of the long handle. I tried a bit of 3 in 1 oil which helped a bit. I eventually replaced it with a geared head.

[dh003i]

Some other interesting heads I found. If anyone's used these, I'd be interested in opinions:

No separation of tilting controls:
Vanguard SBH-300 (1.33 lbs supports 70 lbs) (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/745955-REG/Vanguard_SBH_300_SBH_300_Ballhead_W_2_Bubble.html) -- $100
Arca Swiss Z1 (1.6 lbs supports 130 lbs) (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ns=p_PRICE_2|1&Ntt=arca-swiss+z1&N=0) -- $365 - $548. The double-panning feature here seems useless unless you do panoramic shots.
Markins Q-Ball Q20 (1.2 lbs supports 110 lbs) (http://www.markins.com/2.0/eng/products/ballheads/q20s.html) -- $390
BH-55 PCL (2lbs supports 50 lbs) (http://reallyrightstuff.com/ProductDesc.aspx?code=BH-55-PCL&type=3&eq=&desc=BH-55-PCL%3a-Full-sized-ballhead-with-PCL) -- $575

Separation of tilting controls:
Majestic 1001 Gearhead with 6x7" platform (no specs available) (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/125658-REG/Majestic_81001_1001_Gearhead_with.html) -- $306
Manfrotto 468MGRC3 (1.8 lbs supports 35 lbs) (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/368326-REG/Manfrotto_468MGRC3_468MGRC3_Magnesium_Hydrostatic_Ballhead.html) -- $329

[Frank Petronio]

Nothing will really do until you get a http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/631006-REG/Arca_Swiss_8501000_C1_Cube_Geared_Head.html.

Or learn to just lock it down close enough and rotate/crop in Photoshop or the enlarger ;-)

[dh003i]

Nothing will really do until you get a http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/631006-REG/Arca_Swiss_8501000_C1_Cube_Geared_Head.html.

Or learn to just lock it down close enough and rotate/crop in Photoshop or the enlarger ;-)

haha, but I want one tripod & head combination for all of my field work, including any field macro work. Close enough might be attainable when doing landscape work, but almost impossible when doing macro work, depending on the type of head one has.

I've read that the head you quoted above, C1 Cube, is great for macro work, because it minimizes the movements of the camera lens relative to the subject, but $1700 - $1900 is just a little too expensive for me for a tripod head, I think. Although it is tempting.

Also, I can't find any specifications on load capacity. B&H's website just says, "not specific by manufacturer". That is very very disappointing, especially for a head that expensive.

Not that I think the head is over-priced, it looks incredibly intricate, refined, and well-engineered.

PS: "We are the Borg. You will be assimilated."

PPS: When I look at a review like this (http://www.getdpi.com/cube.html), and see all the levels of division of parts within the C1 Cube -- I count 10 separate pieces of interlocked metal -- I find it difficult to believe, no matter how glowing the reviews, that the thing is just as stable as say the Arca Swiss Z1 or Z2, or even a more simple non-geared 3-way head.

[DaveAlbano]

So hence I'm thinking about the above-mentioned "ballheads" (really 3-way heads that happen to use balls, but allow individual control along all of the axis', just like a 3-way head). The only thing I'm concerned about if the baseplate.

I'm confused. The nature of the ball is to float in all directions. The 2 heads you referenced will not lock in X and allow independent control in Y. The 3 knobs will allow pan, friction and lock. You adjust the friction to stiffen the ball movement then move the camera and lock. Holding horizontal while you adjust angle (front/back) is a technique that comes with practice. The pan knob will allow independent spin movement.

On my Cullmann I can remove the entire plate assembly, leaving the ball post, and then replace with Kirk/RRS etc. I think I would need to file down 2 tabs on my ball post to allow proper seating but I have not taken it apart to verify. If you are thinking about the RRS "system" of accessories, then their ball head makes the most sense.

[Frank Petronio]

The heads he is talking about are even more advanced than a normal precision ballhead, the actually do provide independent axii of movement. Check out their specs. As for someone actually using them, IDK.

I've had the big Gitzo pan-tilt 500-series head with the large platform. It is great for big cameras but I understand, it could be a bit clunky for adjusting yaw. But... short of something like a Cube, I can't think of something that is smooth and precise while being strong and robust. You get what you pay for. (The Cube holds 22lbs I think saw but ratings are not always what practice is.)

There are the Manfrotto geared heads, like the 410, that might hold a light 8x10 like yours... while being sufficiently "tight" to do macro. But it might be borderline....

Perhaps there is some combination of Really Right Stuff clamps and gadgets that would suit your Macro needs and then just use the biggest RRS ball for the view camera?

In the end, you might need two heads. Don't you need a Gitzo 1505 (heavy metal tripod) to put underneath if you want that kind of precision?

[DaveAlbano]

Thanks Frank, I took your advice and learned something. (The bi-axial tilt mechanism of the Monoball® B2 consists of two concentric balls. This design allows you to control fore-and-aft tilt separately from lateral tilt.)

In reality I only use the Cullmann ball with the Nikon/Hasselblad, the Linhof is on a Berlebach with integrated ball; a "sloppy" ball (without separate pan).

[dh003i]

The heads he is talking about are even more advanced than a normal precision ballhead, the actually do provide independent axii of movement. Check out their specs. As for someone actually using them, IDK.

I've had the big Gitzo pan-tilt 500-series head with the large platform. It is great for big cameras but I understand, it could be a bit clunky for adjusting yaw. But... short of something like a Cube, I can't think of something that is smooth and precise while being strong and robust. You get what you pay for. (The Cube holds 22lbs I think saw but ratings are not always what practice is.)

Perhaps there is some combination of Really Right Stuff clamps and gadgets that would suit your Macro needs and then just use the biggest RRS ball for the view camera?

Frank, the Gitzo 500-series...is that the series my 1570M is in?

I'm thinking I'll try to "smooth" out the operation of the yaw movements...maybe it just needs some breaking in, like a baseball glove? It would be much easier to do if the handle for the yaw rotation was as long as the forward/backwards handle. I tried to screw the forward/backwards handle into the yaw handle port, but it isn't long enough on the thin part.

Telescoping handles would have been a really awesome idea, imo. Longer handles means more leverage, which means finer control.

What is your opinion on the balls that don't allow for separation of tilt controls? Are these workable with a 4x5 monorail, or an 8x10 like the Wehman? If so, the Vanguard SBH-300 ballhead (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/745955-REG/Vanguard_SBH_300_SBH_300_Ballhead_W_2_Bubble.html) ($100 head supporting 70 lbs), might be worth a look. But of course, the Arca-Swiss Z1 would be a big step up from that, if 4x5 & 8x10 without separation of tilts is doable; and the Z1 has the elliptical natural resistance to falling.

The Benfro B-3 (http://www.mpex.com/browse.cfm/4,15321.html) also seems like it'd be good for the heads without separate tilt controls.

The FLM 58 FTQR (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/288482-REG/FLM_FLMCB58FTQR_Centerball_58_FTQR.html) looks really nice, like a nice alternative to the Arca-Swiss Z2, although it doesn't seem to have the natural gravity-resistance that the elliptical balls of the Z2 does. The FLM 58 FT (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/288481-REG/FLM_FLMCB58FT_Centerball_58_FT.html), without the quick-release mechanism, is more than $100 cheaper, and normally non-QR systems would seem to be more stable...but it only has 1 screw on a round base, so again the problem of the entire camera base system rotating about it (slipping) seems like it'd be a problem...even if I put a larger platform on top of it, the larger platform would still only be secured to the ballhead by 1 screw. Ironically, the QR system wouldn't seem to have that problem.

If money didn't matter, I'd just plop down for the Arca-Swiss Z2...but $913 is a little too much, imo.

PS: Frank, We may live in the world-wide capital of photography, but my experience here in Rochester is that if you want to try something out that isn't Canon, Nikon, or Manfrotto, you're SOL. I imagine its better in NYC for tring out higher end gear like the Arca-Swiss stuff.

[Peter De Smidt]

I have an Arca B1, the precursor to the Z1. It's a great head, but I wouldn't use it with an 8x10 camera. I also have a 1570 head, and it works fine with the big cameras. You could always order a spare yaw tightening knob, cut the end off, and epoxy it into a wooden dowel of your choice. Heck, make it out of carbon fiber tube, and people will want to buy it. Before doing that, though, call Gitzo and ask what lubricant they recommend for your 1570.

[dh003i]

The heads he is talking about are even more advanced than a normal precision ballhead, the actually do provide independent axii of movement. Check out their specs. As for someone actually using them, IDK.

I've had the big Gitzo pan-tilt 500-series head with the large platform. It is great for big cameras but I understand, it could be a bit clunky for adjusting yaw. But... short of something like a Cube, I can't think of something that is smooth and precise while being strong and robust. You get what you pay for. (The Cube holds 22lbs I think saw but ratings are not always what practice is.)

There are the Manfrotto geared heads, like the 410, that might hold a light 8x10 like yours... while being sufficiently "tight" to do macro. But it might be borderline....

The FLM and A-S ballheads with separate x & y pitch seem like they would operate just like a 3-way, and could get the job done. I've done macro in the field without a geared head...but I was using 3-way heads, not ballheads without any separation of pitch-control.

And re the cube, its something where I'd really have to see it to believe it, simple me. I see 10 layers of interlocking metal there. Even with extremely fine A-S machining, I find it difficult to believe that the thing could be as stable as the G1570M, even though the load-rating is close...and the cube's 22 lbs load rating isn't close to the load-rating of A-S's ball-heads. I realize that ratings can be different from practice, but two ratings put forth by the same company ought to be consistent with one another and hence I think they'd tell you something about the relative load-capabilities of two heads from the same company.


Perhaps there is some combination of Really Right Stuff clamps and gadgets that would suit your Macro needs and then just use the biggest RRS ball for the view camera?

In the end, you might need two heads. Don't you need a Gitzo 1505 (heavy metal tripod) to put underneath if you want that kind of precision?

I can go two routes -- heavy or light. All of the heads I've mentioned here, including the 1570M I have -- are lighter than my 4.25 lbs Manfrotto 229 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/553888-REG/Manfrotto_229_229_Super_Pro_Head.html), with the hexplate. It is a smooth head, but as mentioned, the hexplate is annoying due to torsional slippage.

I'm going to buy the 8x10 Wehman field camera, and already have a Fuji A 240/9 (lightweight, sharp, and recommended by Mr. Wehman). I then went the opposite route and got an Apo Nikkor 610/9 for a long lens ($275), instead of the Fuji C 600/11.5 (also, the 600/11.5 just went out of stock at Idaho Camera). The Apo Nikkor 610/9 is large and heavy and needs mounting into an Ilex #5 by SK Grimes, but even after buying the shutter and paying to have it mounted, still less han the Fuji C 600/11.5. And it has an enormous coverage, and from what I've read is very sharp.

Right now, I have a Bogen 055XPROB as my tripod. I realize this isn't sufficient for 8x10, and I actually hate the stupid center column -- it prevents the pod from getting down to the ground without doing funky unstable worrisome stuff, like tilting the centering column 90 degrees, or hanging it upside down. It really annoys me that more tripods can't get up to 6-7 or 8 feet without an annoying centering column that prevents them from getting low to the ground. Yea, I know the column can be replaced with a short center column, but that is annoying.

The replacements I'm thinking of:

Feisol CT-3372 (http://reallybigcameras.com/Feisol/CT-3372_CT-3472.htm) -- lightest, at 3.8 lbs; 26 lbs load; but barely gets to 5 ft height without a center column. Can get very low, down to 3.1 inches, but can't get very high. I often like very low and very high perspectives. Very high can be good for a unique view and getting more DOF with tilting. $500.

Berlebach UNI 24C (http://www.berlebach.de/?bereich=details&id=228&sprache=english) -- heavy bertha at 17 lbs, supports a massive 110 lbs (I could almost hang off of it), gets pretty low (11 inches), but doesn't get too high (5.4 ft). $610, before import duties if they're levied.

Gitzo GT3541XLS (https://www.ppsna.com/product_info.php/cPath/65/products_id/809) -- 4.3 lbs, supports 40 lbs. It doesn't have a center column, so I assume it can get about as low as the Berlebach or Feisol. Can reach up to 6.5 ft, which is nice. $880 before shipping & taxes. This one seems like a really nice all-rounder.

[dh003i]

I have an Arca B1, the precursor to the Z1. It's a great head, but I wouldn't use it with an 8x10 camera. I also have a 1570 head, and it works fine with the big cameras. You could always order a spare yaw tightening knob, cut the end off, and epoxy it into a wooden dowel of your choice. Heck, make it out of carbon fiber tube, and people will want to buy it. Before doing that, though, call Gitzo and ask what lubricant they recommend for your 1570.

Thanks, I'll give that a try.

[NicolasArg]

Well, I happen to use the same Gitzo head you have and find it absolutely fantastic, MUCH better then the big Kirk head I tried before.
When my 1570M arrived and I tried it without the camera, it was a bit stiff on the horizontal axis, but then I mounted my Toyo 45A and just moved it a bit till it softened and now it's as smooth as the other axis.
What I love about this particular head is the low profile concept. Low profile means really improved stability in windy conditions and the huge base supports almost all the base of my camera. Additionally, I feel that from a mechanical point of view, using a ball head with a large format camera almost invalidates the whole "bigtripodbigheadsetupforstability" concept, as in practice, the camera is just sitting on a tiny mechanical joint atop of a tall monopod shaped head.
If you are concerned with the leveling issues and don't mind the extra weight, perhaps you could use a leveling base.

[Frank Petronio]

Personally I'd get the Gitzo GT3541XLS, the leveling bowl option, and the now discontinued 1300-series low-profile head for the Wehman set-up. You're not going to flip it sideways for verticals. It is well matched to the camera and at least with the 240 it will be awesome. God help you with a #5 mounted 600mm on that rig, you are an optimist. If it were I, I'd get a bomber 14"=360mm and crop when I needed to. A 240 and 360 is a great classic 8x10 combo....

And then I'd get a different head for your macro if you decide you need it. Swap heads. Maybe you'll find you don't need to after you adapt?

Perhaps the 1570 head you are using just needs a heavy #5 (or 1500 - same thing, different ages) series tripod to be more stable. I'd be shaky yaw-wise too if I were on too light a tripod.

Also, I think Gitzo underates a lot of its older metal line because then they can make their newer stuff higher rated -- outside of Lomo and Hitler, most Europeans suck at marketing. I think you could probably put an Elephant on that #5 head without an issue.

The one thing I am certain of is that the Gitzo GT3541XLS legset is pretty much the best thing out there, at least until RRS decides to cater to taller photographers who don't live to crawl through grass photographing birds.

[Peter De Smidt]

The one thing I am certain of is that the Gitzo GT3541XLS leg set is pretty much the best thing out there, ...

I wish I could afford one!

[dh003i]

Nicolas,

Thanks for your thoughts on the G1570M; I'll see what happens when I loosen it up a little bit and also call Gitzo to ask about it. Also, have just been testing it in my hand for smoothness...maybe it'll be much better on a tripod. But I think the Manfrotto 229 head I have is smooth even in hand.

Frank,

Thanks for the advice, I'm really leaning towards the Gitzo GT3541XLS, expensive as it is. Why do you recommend the 1300 series head over the 1570M that I have now?

I realize that the 610/9 is pushing it for weight, but this would be a pretty solid setup. The reason I got the 610mm is to get shots comparable to an 43mm lens on a 4/3rds body when using 8x10 film, or comparable to a 86mm lens when using 4x5 film (or anything in between when using 8x10 and cropping). I already have a 305/9 G-Claron lens that covers 8x10...the thought of using that or a 360 and cropping to get a FOV equivalent to 86mm on 4/3rds...well, seems like a waste of money. Why not just use a MF film back then? And then why not just use a MF camera?

[Peter De Smidt]

You can certainly use a 600mm lens on an 8x10, but it will be tricky. All that bellows and extended frames will make the whole setup a bit springy, no matter what tripod and and head you use. You may end up having to use monopods under the front and rear standards and braces between the front and rear standards, to keep things sharp, all things that have been traditionally done. You won't know until you try it. Also, a big umbrella can help shield the camera from wind.

[dh003i]

I will have a couple of 64" PLM umbrellas from white lightning, with light stands. Perhaps they can be used

[dh003i]

I just received my Nikkor 610/9...it is a beast, but in superb condition. Wowsa!

A picture to illustrate the scale of the beast (that would be the lens, not my head):

49410

[Frank Petronio]

Hold on, you haven't mounted the 1570 head on a tripod yet but you notice it hanging up when you are just playing with it? Whoa....

And you can do anything you want but that's not really the lens you'd want to hang off an ultralight 8x10.

I give up....

[dh003i]

Hold on, you haven't mounted the 1570 head on a tripod yet but you notice it hanging up when you are just playing with it? Whoa....

Well, I didn't think it unreasonable to expect a $300+ head (esp a Gitzo) to be smooth even if not on a 'pod. My much less pricey Bogen 229 3-way is smooth even off of a tripod.


And you can do anything you want but that's not really the lens you'd want to hang off an ultralight 8x10.

I give up....

Well, lighter 600's weren't available. Yes, it defeats the purpose of a light 8x10 by adding 3 lbs. Any suggested alternatives? The reason I'm looking at the Wehman is because of how it folds up into a nice box, and the length of extension it gets (30.5in / 774mm).

[Frank Petronio]

The head will probably be much smoother once it's on a tripod with a load on it. Think of it as more of a farming implement, it needs some beef.

I'm not really up on long 8x10 lenses but having used several 8x10s heavier than a Wehman, I'd be... I don't what to say, I hate to dash anyone's hopes.

[dh003i]

The head will probably be much smoother once it's on a tripod with a load on it. Think of it as more of a farming implement, it needs some beef.

I'm not really up on long 8x10 lenses but having used several 8x10s heavier than a Wehman, I'd be... I don't what to say, I hate to dash anyone's hopes.

Don't worry. I try a lot of things out. Sometimes they work, sometimes not.

[Peter De Smidt]

Fujinon 600c would be a lot lighter, and it would be in a shutter. I have the same nikon lens, as I picked it up cheap. I would not hang it on the front of a field camera without adding some type of support under the front standard. I've only used it on the front of an Eastman #9 portrait camera, a huge monster of camera with a non-folding front standard. Thinking of using that lens on an 8x10 field camera with a Z1 sounds like something out of a Marx brother's film.

Many new tripod heads smooth out with a little use. If not, it should be under warranty, right?

[dh003i]

Fujinon 600c would be a lot lighter, and it would be in a shutter. I have the same nikon lens, as I picked it up cheap. I would not hang it on the front of a field camera without adding some type of support under the front standard. I've only used it on the front of an Eastman #9 portrait camera, a huge monster of camera with a non-folding front standard. Thinking of using that lens on an 8x10 field camera with a Z1 sounds like something out of a Marx brother's film.

Many new tripod heads smooth out with a little use. If not, it should be under warranty, right?

Well, call me crazy Dave ;-). I sent back the first G1570M to MPEX for a replacement smoother. This one is better than the first...but from responses here, seems endemic to the unit.

But I'll give the G1570M a go and not be too rash.

I'll definitely use something to support the lens.

[more photography]

I was just in their shop earlier this week, nice people. New leveling head coming out too.
but watch out since they're compatible but not the exact same size as arca plates. Not a big deal if you have screw lock heads but a pain if you have the arca "flip lock" mechanism (which I strongly do not recommend) since you'll have to adjust if switching between cameras/plates.

Any info on this new leveling head

[dh003i]

Finally got around to using the G1570M this weekend on my 055XPROB. Used it with my Alpenhaus 4x5 polaroid to take tri-color shots. It is a very nice head, although it is still a little bit non-smooth, even mounted on the tripod. Maybe use will loosen it up a little bit. If not, I'll call Gitzo.

PS: After thinking over a few alternatives including wooden and surveying tripods, I've ordered the Gitzo GT5561SGT (http://www.opticsplanet.net/gitzo-series-5-carbon-6x-giant-systematic-tripod-6-sec-g-lock.html) tripod. Supporting 55 lbs, it should be strong and stable enough to support a 610 lens and it still isn't too heavy.

[dh003i]

Crazy question: has anyone used a DIY or modified Gimbal head with a 4x5 or 8x10 to better balance the weight when using long extensions?