Digital Recording of each shot

[Bob McCarthy]

I was out shooting with friends in the fall and one of them, J B Harlin was duplicating every shot of sheet film with a digital shot from a cheap point and shoot. primarily record keeping. Same angle of view, same camera position.

My first instinct was, that was a clever idea. The concept has been percolating for a while now and I'm about to act on it.

What I was thinking was to take it to a higher level. Not only match the focal (equivalent) length and position to cover the same exact scene, but also to use a better camera that allows manual input of iso, f-stop and shutter speed. The better ones have gps built in so location is recorded.

That way I have an exif file for every sheet of film automatically recorded and if things go awry, I have the opportunity to review the digital exposure for ideas.

I don't believe it would prove to be a digital exposure meter as the characteristics of film and digital are so different, especially in the highlights, but it would be better than nothing and in low contrast scenes perfectly workable.

Question is which one, Canon G12 or Panasonic LX5??

Thoughts?

Bob

[J.B. Harlin]

Hi Bob. . . been shooting records of my LF exposures for near 20 years now. Started way back when, using a small pocket-size 35mm Olympus point-n-shoot, just to record the scene and LF camera setup. My wife followed suit doing the same. With the advent of digital, our snapshot cameras moved into the modern age. I quickly learned to set the zoom of the digi-snapper to the same approximate view as the view camera. Then it was easy to offload the photos later, strip them to B&W, and get an idea of what was on the LF film.

This has become a habit now. The pocket cameras we both use are Panasonic Lumix DMC-LZ7 (7mp). . . no GPS, but it does date and time stamp the image file. We also both us a digital voice recorder to keep field notes . . . exposure, location, weather and such . . . plus we carry a handheld GPS.

Detailed field notes are great to have. Takes a little time, but can be well worth the effort. These little digi-snappers also shoot great video.

JB Harlin

[Bob McCarthy]

Does that camera allow manual exposure?

I think that's what I want, as I can examine the distribution of tones. Most inexpensive digital cameras approach it with autoexposure adjusting with compensation.

I just want to dial in f22 at 1/2 second or whatever my LF lens is set to.

still up to your haha's in snow? Pict you sent was pretty impressive.

bob

[Gem Singer]

My thoughts:

JB Harlin and Susan sell their images. That's how they make their living. Time, place and exposure data are valuable information for them to have.

If a photographer is not planning on marketing his/her images, why not shoot everything with a high-end digital SLR, or a digital MF. Use stitching (when larger images are needed), and forget about using an LF film camera?

Using both types of image capture devices for the same scene just seems like a waste of time and energy to me.

I wonder if M.Smith and P.Chamlee use digital cameras to record what they have taken with their LF film cameras?

[Jim Cole]

Bob,

I have the LX-3 and it's an exceptional little camera, although I do not use it to record my LF shots except on the rare occasion. The LX-5, although it has a longer lens than my LX-3, still is not long enough to mimic more than 300mm lens on a 4x5. If 300mm is your max on a 4x5, then the LX-5 can't be beat.

[Bob McCarthy]

Though I have a 4x5, I concider my primary format 8x10 now. Longest is 19 in Artar so I'm good to go.

Are the controls intuitive in manual mode?

thanks Jim

bob

[Bob McCarthy]

My thoughts:

JB Harlin and Susan sell their images. That's how they make their living. Time, place and exposure data are valuable information for them to have.

If you're not planning on marketing your images, why not shoot everything with a high-end digital SLR, or a digital MF. Use stitching (when you want larger images), and forget about using an LF film camera?

Using both types of image capture devices for the same scene just seems like a waste of time and energy to me.

I wonder if M.Smith and P.Chamlee use digital cameras to record what they have taken with their LF film cameras?

Eugene, Putting aside I just plan enjoy shooting sheet film, its the cheapest gig in town. I can own a 8x10 Sinar P for less than a grand. Deardorff's for $1500 in fine shape. 355 G-Claron for $700, and so on.

Did I say I produce better results than when I had one of those Nikon "uber" cameras.

Then there is history, I bought my first 4x5 in the early 80's, left to discover the digital world for a few years, came back as you know.

bob

[Ben Syverson]

A while back I set up a system to take a digital shot simultaneously with a LF exposure for strobe work. The idea was that I could look at the digital shot and check the subject's expression, make sure they didn't blink, etc.

I set up the DSLR on a tripod next to the view camera, and connected the PC sync on the LF shutter to the electronic shutter release cable for the DSLR. The DSLR would in turn trigger the strobes. The LF lens had to be set rather low (I think 1/30th) in order to catch the strobes, but it did work.

Sorry, that's a bit OT I know...

[John Brady]

A little different than the Harlin's, I have been making digital sound recordings of some of my images.

I haven't figured out how I am going to use these yet but as an example, I would love to be able to show a large image of a swamp and have the viewer be able to hear the sounds as well. Now I just have to figure out how I will incorporate the two.

J.B. I wish I were as disciplined as the two of you. My record keeping is rough at best.

www.timeandlight.com

[Gem Singer]

Bob,

In post #1 your final question was: "Thoughts?"

In post #4, my opening statement was: "My thoughts".

I believe I'm entitled to my voice my opinion on this forum. In no way was I putting you down. In fact, I wasn't even referring to you, or your preferences in cameras. I was speaking in generalities to the many others who read these posts.

As you know, I occasionally use a digital camera for color snapshots. However, my point is: Unless a photographer is planning on marketing his/her images,is it absolutely necessary to take the time and effort to record the scene in both digital and film during the same session?

[Bob McCarthy]

Eugene, i didn't take it that way. I was just sharing "thoughts" too. A conversation, of sorts.

You are entitled (not the word I want) to your opinion, I have no issue with that.

not at all, in fact,

bob

[Gem Singer]

Bob,

Re-read your post #7.

It sure sounded like a rebuttal to my remarks.

Perhaps, I'm just getting tired of people pissing on my boots and trying to convince me that it's raining (old Texas saying).:)

[Jay DeFehr]

I do essentially the same thing. I use my iPhone to make a record shot from camera position, just as a reference, so I know what's on the film in the holder. I use the voice memo function to record exposure data, and any notes I want to record about the scene, and how I want to process the film. For me, there's no point in trying to duplicate the film shot. In the darkroom, I review the digital image and voice memo to determine development, and transfer that information to the negative sleeve, along with a Catalog ID number. For roll film, I just use the voice memo. I don't save the digital image files, or the voice files.

[Bob McCarthy]

I do essentially the same thing. I use my iPhone to make a record shot from camera position, just as a reference, so I know what's on the film in the holder. I use the voice memo function to record exposure data, and any notes I want to record about the scene, and how I want to process the film. For me, there's no point in trying to duplicate the film shot. In the darkroom, I review the digital image and voice memo to determine development, and transfer that information to the negative sleeve, along with a Catalog ID number. For roll film, I just use the voice memo. I don't save the digital image files, or the voice files.


Jay there is an app that matches the lens FOV exactly. limited on the wide end, but does act as a viewer that you might have not come across.

Called Viewfinder Pro. also takes a recording snap.

bob

[Eric Leppanen]

One benefit of shooting both LF and digital is that the digital shot can be used as a color reference. If one shoots only color neg film (no chrome) and farms out scanning and printing to an outside digital lab (as I do), then in my experience the question that always comes up from the lab is "what do you want the colors to look like?" A positive image (either a chrome or JPG) provides a good starting point to address that question.

I always take a digital point-and-shoot on my trips, so carrying it with me during my LF forays is no big deal.

[Ash]

I bought a Samsung EX1 (EL500) for similar purposes. I love it for what it is, but only because it's cheaper than the Canon.

[aduncanson]

Bob,

I am not sure why you want to match shutter speed and aperture, but small digicams typically do not offer apertures smaller than f/8. Even so, (and in fact even at the LX-5's max aperture of f/2) the depth of field for the small camera will be greater than for your 8x10 at f/22.

[Bob McCarthy]

Bob,

I am not sure why you want to match shutter speed and aperture, but small digicams typically do not offer apertures smaller than f/8. Even so, (and in fact even at the LX-5's max aperture of f/2) the depth of field for the small camera will be greater than for your 8x10 at f/22.

Good point, I was more interest in distribution of tones, not DOF though. But I have to think about the idea these cameras don't have full range of apertures.

B

[ic-racer]

How about just taking a shot of the ground glass.

[msk2193]

Bob,

This is what I got to copycat JB and Susan.....

http://exilim.casio.com/products_exh20g.shtml

It does not have manual controls like the Nikon or Canon, but more importantly to me saves the GPS coordinates with the image data.

Neither the Canon G-12 or Nion P-7000 have f-stops you'd be able to copy on the lens. For that I can use my other little "point-and-shoot" with interchangable lenses and all the manual control I'd ever need! And with digital, remember to bias towards the lighter areas, not the shadows!

Happy New Year

[Scott Knowles]

I was out shooting with friends in the fall and one of them, J B Harlin was duplicating every shot of sheet film with a digital shot... primarily record keeping. Same angle of view, same camera position.


I do that every time but with a DSLR (Canon 5D). It doesn't necessarily help with the exposure reading much (an external meter does better) but it allows me to play with the exposure (same ISO setting). I have a 35mm lens for the same LF focal length lens (or thereabouts). And if by chance ("Not me, of course.", to which was the reply, "Yeah, right.") I should botch the film, I have the digital image.

[Bob McCarthy]

Rethinking, maybe a 4/3rds with a proper lens might be more suitable. The lumix GF2 might be the better ticket, but the idea of inexpensive is flying out the door, hmmm

Bob

[bigdog]

Bob- what happened to your Nikon? :confused:

I am considering a digital for similar, but not the same reasons. What I have found out is that choosing a digital camera is about the hardest thing I have ever attempted in photography! All I want (and I think this is similar to Bob's needs) is a basic camera with a sensor rather than a film plane. Other than a Leica, this doesn't seem to exist. I don't need video. I don't need 8-12 "modes". Why does manual focusing take both hands and several menu items?

Sorry - don't mean to rant and de-rail the thread - but doing what I wish or what Bob wishes should NOT be that hard! :(


... the idea of inexpensive is flying out the door, hmmm

... and there's that, too ...

[Bob McCarthy]

Bob- what happened to your Nikon? :confused:

I am considering a digital for similar, but not the same reasons. What I have found out is that choosing a digital camera is about the hardest thing I have ever attempted in photography! All I want (and I think this is similar to Bob's needs) is a basic camera with a sensor rather than a film plane. Other than a Leica, this doesn't seem to exist. I don't need video. I don't need 8-12 "modes". Why does manual focusing take both hands and several menu items?

Sorry - don't mean to rant and de-rail the thread - but doing what I wish or what Bob wishes should NOT be that hard! :(



... and there's that, too ...

David,

After a lot of discovery, I think the G12 comes closest. All the required controls are dials and not screen or tiny button based, if I understood the video I watched. Owners jump in if I misunderstood that. Just need iso, aperture and shutter.

Downsides are small sensor, it's a sizable camera, and max aperture is f8 so I can't match my film camera settings, though I can use EV and dial in equivalent.

Sold the D2x some time back.

Happy new year,

Bob

[Bob McCarthy]

An alternate is go simpler. My teen daughter has a Lumix ZS5' it does have manual control. I walked around with my spot meter and plugged in the correct EV and got good exposures. The tiny-tiny buttons are not workable with my aging eyes and adult sized fingers though!

Bob

[msk2193]

David and Bob,

The Canon G10,11, or 12 and their Nikon equivelant are GREAT manual cameras.

If you ever plan on scuba diving or snorkeling, there is a cheap housing available for the Canon that we used extensively in the Galapagos.

Don't expect to make large prints, but for web posting nothing beats it.

Want something that actually produces wonderful LARGE prints, get the Leica M9 which has become my standard point and shoot!

[Jim Cole]

Though I have a 4x5, I concider my primary format 8x10 now. Longest is 19 in Artar so I'm good to go.

Are the controls intuitive in manual mode?

thanks Jim

bob

Bob,

Sorry for the delay. I set up a custom setting that has all the B&W controls the way I want them and then just select the custom mode from the top dial (very quick). A quick thumb on the toggle switch on the back of the camera sets the aperture (f/2.5-f/8) and I'm ready to shoot. As mentioned before in the thread, you cannot mimic the f/ settings above f/8. But, if the idea is to get an idea of the tones in the image, that doesn't matter. The LX-3 and LX-5 cameras give you a nice range of settings to mimick most any B&W film that you care to take the time to experiment with.

Good luck

[swmcl]

My present way of working includes a Fuji digi (S100FS) to record the scene but I also carry an Olympus voice recorder. I narrate the scene and the camera details. This way I can talk about what I'm trying to achieve in the photo, weather conditions, camera settings, filters etc. etc. Sometimes I can remind myself of the trials and tribulations that have been gone through in the effort to get the photo!

I'd like a GPS reading but its not really necessary given that most locations are known. ie. Smith's beach or some such.

Most digis will have a date recording too.

Cheers,

[falth j]

So many things to think about, my gosh.


I hope I'm not 'hi-jacking' anything here...


But, do any of you know whether it would be better to use a full frame, 4/3's digital or 4x5, 4x10, 5x7, 5x8, 8x10, or ulf large format camera to capture a image?


My intent is to take the resulting image back home and somehow project it, so that I can make a painting of the captured image...

I'm not sure if oil pigments, acrylic pigments, or if even water-color pigments would be best... if anyone knows, I would appreciate hearing about your experience.


I need to be sure I will obtain the best resolution and capture that I can get...


Thank you in advance...

[msk2193]

Faith, in your scenario I would only worry about one thing - price! If you are only projecting, it doesn't really matter what depth of field you have, you change that as the painting artist!

[Ben Syverson]

By far the cheapest option would be to shoot a 35mm slide and project it with a slide projector, which people are literally giving away these days.

If you need reference for the fine details, you can always take close ups with print film and get 5x7s to work from. But a well-captured 35mm slide has a lot more information than you might expect.

[bigdog]

I'm not sure if oil pigments, acrylic pigments, or if even water-color pigments would be best... if anyone knows, I would appreciate hearing about your experience.

Thank you in advance...

:D ;)

[schafphoto]

Hi All, being a HABS/HAER photographer I turn in a copy of the field notes at the end of the project.

I then started getting calls from the clients right after the field work asking for proof images that they could submit in their draft HABS Survey reports (was this school-photo-day?). So I started taking a photo from the same tripod position as the 5x7 view (this is a PITA) of every image on my D200 and now D300 Nikon. I have now purchased the GP-1 Nikon GPS antenna and that adds a metadata GPS position on the file. This is cool because it lets me create a digital map of all my outdoor camera positions (required by HABS/HAER). I still do a sketch map on site but the client gets a digital GPS tagged image and a digital map in about a week after the field work. Usually at that point, I am still in the middle of the processing the 5x7 sheets, and this makes the client happy for weeks as the film and contact prints get made and the captions get written.

I love my Panasonic LX3 but is not wide enough. The nature of HABS means that I'm trying to match the super-WIDE-Angle of my 72mm on 5x7 and I don't get close with the 12mm on my D300 (close enough for a proof). I do a "DIGIROID" exposure on the D300 at f22 (my usual 5x7 fstop) and look at the histogram and I use the black and white mode which gives me a B&W preview on The Nikon (The RAW file is still RGB for me to decide later).

I'm in a production environment so it's not "Ansel Approved" but it gets me a quick reference. i now have my HP5 and FujiRoid 100B and D300 all calibrated at ISO 200 to keep everything simple unless push or pulling is needed for contrast control.

And the other cool thing is you can put your new captures on your 72DPI website the day you get home... while you're still excited. I had my Ahwahnee Hotel HABS digis on my website an hour after I got home from Yosemite. They might even still be GPS tagged if the metadata didn't get stripped off somewhere in my process.
-Schaf

[Bob McCarthy]

By far the cheapest option would be to shoot a 35mm slide and project it with a slide projector, which people are literally giving away these days.

If you need reference for the fine details, you can always take close ups with print film and get 5x7s to work from. But a well-captured 35mm slide has a lot more information than you might expect.

Ben, that would be the cheapest as I have an F5, ton's of lenses and a Leitz slide projector, but

The incremental cost of what is basically a throwaway and the lack of immediate feedback make it a non event.

I ended up ordering the Canon G12. First canon product I've ordered since they obsoleted about 15+ "L" lenses when they changed the FD mount.

Still haven't forgiven them, but then a Point and Shoot doesn't count for much. Individual manual control dials won the day for me.

I'm still regretting not getting the LX5, but in the end the control layout was tilted to Canon.

I'll do a short report when I get some time with the camera biased towards how well it supports LF shooting.


bob

[Liam:]

I have started using my DSLR (canon 40d) with a cheap lens that matches the focal length of my main lens. The main reason I use it is that I can quickly see if the landscape is going to make an image before setting up the tripod/camera...

It is also handy for exposure if your light meter is older than your grandfather...

[mrladewig]

Does that camera allow manual exposure?

I think that's what I want, as I can examine the distribution of tones. Most inexpensive digital cameras approach it with autoexposure adjusting with compensation.

I just want to dial in f22 at 1/2 second or whatever my LF lens is set to.

still up to your haha's in snow? Pict you sent was pretty impressive.

bob


To be honest, I have the LX3 and neither it nor the LX5 will allow you to accomplish what you are looking for entirely. Though both allow manual shooting, I think both top out on aperture at f8 or f11. Just comes with the compact cam territory.

But you'll find the same limitations on manual with a 35mm dslr camera versus a 4X5. I frequently need to stop down to f32 in the field and sometimes more. Only one of my 35mm lenses will allow an aperture bellow f22 and many of my older lenses only stop down to f16.

Mel-

[Bob McCarthy]

To be honest, I have the LX3 and neither it nor the LX5 will allow you to accomplish what you are looking for entirely. Though both allow manual shooting, I think both top out on aperture at f8 or f11. Just comes with the compact cam territory.

But you'll find the same limitations on manual with a 35mm dslr camera versus a 4X5. I frequently need to stop down to f32 in the field and sometimes more. Only one of my 35mm lenses will allow an aperture bellow f22 and many of my older lenses only stop down to f16.

Mel-


Mel, I picked up the G12. I plug in the same EV although the aperture/shutter are different. Dont need f22 or whatever to be on digital.

Ie I use f22@ 1/15 sec. i would plug in f5.6 @ 1/250 sec.

Still working on a brief writeup of the good bad and ugly of using one.

bob