TEA Substitute

[onnect17]

Hey guys,
I'm trying to mix a couple of pyro developers but TEA's viscosity is not helping.
Does anybody knows a substitute with lower viscosity at sub 60F temperature?

[Sinar-Man]

Hey guys,
I'm trying to mix a couple of pyro developers but TEA's viscosity is not helping.
Does anybody knows a substitute with lower viscosity at sub 60F temperature?

Coffee? :D Seriously though, why not try Gordon Hutchings PMK or John Wimberley's formula instead? Pyrocat HD seems very popular as well.

[mikebarger]

I think if you look at the 510 pyro thread on APUG there is a post about thinning TEA.
However, I've never had a single problem mixing 510 pyro, take it up to the proper temp and everything mixes.

Mike

[Jay DeFehr]

The viscosity of TEA is not a problem, and introducing glycol or other thinners only complicates things. Even at 60F, the concentrate dispenses easily with a measuring syringe. When mixing, the TEA must be heated, and then it becomes water thin.

[onnect17]

Coffee? :D Seriously though, why not try Gordon Hutchings PMK or John Wimberley's formula instead? Pyrocat HD seems very popular as well.

Pyrocat-hd is fine and I'm familiar with it. I was trying to explore 510-pyro and Pyrocat Uno. Here in New England (Boston area) is common to have the basement under 60F, and the TEA is a pain in a** to mix. I'm fine buying a scale to mix the ingredients, which I did. Thinking in buying a hot-plate stirrer is too much, not worth it. :(

[mikebarger]

I bought a sauce pan at a garage sale, painted the outside red and heat the TEA on the stove top. You only need to go to 150 degrees.

mike

[onnect17]

Hi Jay,
Glad you got in the conversation.
Yesterday I received the chemicals from photoformulary. The bottle with the TEA was "solid". This afternoon I decided to mix the chemicals and I have to spend 30 minutes to get the bottle partially liquid under hot water. Part of the mixing have to be done outside the house (for fear to get intoxicated) and I could not get the chemicals properly dissolved.

[mikebarger]

Which part of the mixing do you have to do outdoors?

[onnect17]

Which part of the mixing do you have to do outdoors?

Measuring the powders and getting them in the bottle with the 75ml of TEA. Back in the basement I placed the bottle in hot water (the water heater thermostat is at 150).
I changed the water multiple times and shaked the bottle frequently and still was half dissolved.

[Jay DeFehr]

TEA supercools, and has a high freeze point, but the mixed concentrate doesn't. For small volumes, like 100ml, I use a microwave to mix my concentrates. The first thing you need to do is thaw your TEA. You can do it in a microwave, on the stovetop, or in a hot water bath, if you're not in a hurry. I use a pyrex measuring cup to mix 100ml batches in a microwave. once the chemicals are added to the TEA and stirred, there is very little risk of exposure. For me, thawing 100ml of TEA isn't a problem, and takes about 2 min. Once the TEA is thawed, mixing is very simple: Add the chemicals to 1/2 the TEA and stir. Top up to final volume with TEA and stir again. Heat with stirring until dissolved. It's very simple. It doesn't matter in what order you add the chemicals, just dump them in and stir. there's only one solution to make. It takes me about 5 minutes, total, to make 100ml of 510-Pyro.

[onnect17]

I bought a sauce pan at a garage sale, painted the outside red and heat the TEA on the stove top. You only need to go to 150 degrees.

mike

Mike,
Thanks for the suggestion but you should double check your home insurance policy for fire and chemical accelerants. I don't want to go that road.

[Jay DeFehr]

TEA is not a fire hazard. Its flash point is something like 600C, if I remember correctly. Cooking oil is far more flammable.

[onnect17]

Jay,
Thanks for the tips. Probably the microwave/syringe is the best. I will locate a small microwave around in the stores (here you can find them on the curb or yard sales in th summer). I don't want to bring any of this stuff inside the house.
May be it was stupid for me to try mixing it in a plastic bottle. I'l give it another try tomorrow.
Armando



TEA supercools, and has a high freeze point, but the mixed concentrate doesn't. For small volumes, like 100ml, I use a microwave to mix my concentrates. The first thing you need to do is thaw your TEA. You can do it in a microwave, on the stovetop, or in a hot water bath, if you're not in a hurry. I use a pyrex measuring cup to mix 100ml batches in a microwave. once the chemicals are added to the TEA and stirred, there is very little risk of exposure. For me, thawing 100ml of TEA isn't a problem, and takes about 2 min. Once the TEA is thawed, mixing is very simple: Add the chemicals to 1/2 the TEA and stir. Top up to final volume with TEA and stir again. Heat with stirring until dissolved. It's very simple. It doesn't matter in what order you add the chemicals, just dump them in and stir. there's only one solution to make. It takes me about 5 minutes, total, to make 100ml of 510-Pyro.

[Jay DeFehr]

TEA is used in shampoos, lotions, cosmetics, and many other household products.

[mikebarger]

Sorry, I'm not sure which ingredient in 510 is going to flash?

[onnect17]

Mike, You're absolutely right. A warning in the label in the bottle I received from photoformulary reads flammable. After checking wikipedia for TEA and DEA
(it's only 85% TEA) it's not that flammable after all. I feel better now.
Perhaps it's a requirement to put the warning in the label for anything rated above zero.


Sorry, I'm not sure which ingredient in 510 is going to flash?

[Jay DeFehr]

Wait, 85% TEA? Don't use 85% TEA, it contains 15% water, and will activate the TEA as a base, and oxidize your concentrate. If you have to use it, dry it in a shallow glass dish in your oven at 250F to evaporate as much of the water as possible. If you've already added your chemicals, it's too late. Never use 85% TEA for developer concentrates.

[Jay DeFehr]

http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_S_Z-Triethanolamine.html

this is TEA 99%.

[onnect17]

I love Wikipedia! It lists TEA around 600F and DEA (15%) at 400F.
Good learnig experience for me. :)


TEA is not a fire hazard. Its flash point is something like 600C, if I remember correctly. Cooking oil is far more flammable.

[onnect17]

May be I bought the wrong one. Here's the msds link in the website:
http://stores.photoformulary.com/images/store_version1/Triethanolamine%20Msds.pdf


http://www.chemistrystore.com/Chemicals_S_Z-Triethanolamine.html

this is TEA 99%.

[mikebarger]

Did you do any checking to see if Artcraft's kits are much different in price compared to PF? Just curious as I get my 510 from Artcraft and never checked with PF for their pricing.

Artcraft's kits are made to four times the volume of Jay's formula.

You get it going and you'll really like 510 Pyro!

Mike

[Jay DeFehr]

Mike,

Is Mike including TEA 99% in his kits?

[mikebarger]

I had to run down to the darkroom and see, yes! 99%

Mike

[Jay DeFehr]

That's good.

[mikebarger]

Jay

He's also on Linkedin

[Jay DeFehr]

He seems like a good guy.

[onnect17]

Here's my order from photoformulary for reference. I could not find a 510-pyro kit when I placed the order

Photographers' Formulary Inc. Items
1 PYROGALLOL* (10-1110 30G) @ $11.95 = $11.95
1 METOL (ELON) (10-0770 10G) @ $5.95 = $5.95
1 ASCORBIC ACID (10-0241 10G) @ $3.95 = $3.95
2 Bottle, plastic, natural (50-1260 125ML) @ $1.10 = $2.20
1 TRIETHANOLAMINE (10-1463 1PT) @ $10.95 = $10.95
1 PHENIDONE (10-0870 10G) @ $5.95 = $5.95

Sub-Total: $40.95

Shipping: $11.65 (UPS Ground)

I sent an email to artcraft chemicals requesting info about the kits but no response so far. I could not find any kit listed in the site's store.



Did you do any checking to see if Artcraft's kits are much different in price compared to PF? Just curious as I get my 510 from Artcraft and never checked with PF for their pricing.

Artcraft's kits are made to four times the volume of Jay's formula.

You get it going and you'll really like 510 Pyro!

Mike

[Jay DeFehr]

I don't know Mike's prices.

Mike, what does an Artcraft kit cost?

[Jay DeFehr]

If he's making 400ml kits, it would include:

Pyro 40g
ascorbic acid 20g
phenidone 1g
TEA 400ML

And one advantage is that the chems are pre-measured; just dump and mix.

[onnect17]

Jay, you should put a note in your blog so 510-pyro users don't make the same mistake I did ordering TEA 85% from PF.

[Jay DeFehr]

I was thinking the same thing. Thanks for the suggestion.

[onnect17]

I sent a message to Sherry at PF and she updated the TEA description. They recently changed the web store and that part was lost in the transition.
Very happy with her prompt action.


I was thinking the same thing. Thanks for the suggestion.

[mikebarger]

Jay, Mike sells the larger size 510 Pyro kit for 28.75 delivered to the midwest. Anybody smart enough to say how much cheaper bulk would be than the kit?

Thanks

[Jay DeFehr]

Mike,

That's a very reasonable price. 400ml of 510-Pyro can develop 400 rolls or 8x10 sheets of film at about $0.07/roll or 8x10 sheet, and properly mixed and stored, the concentrate will last years. One might be able to make it up cheaper, but it would probably mean making up a larger volume of concentrate.

[mikebarger]

Great, this size has worked well for me.

Thanks Jay!

[Gary L. Quay]

Hey guys,
I'm trying to mix a couple of pyro developers but TEA's viscosity is not helping.
Does anybody knows a substitute with lower viscosity at sub 60F temperature?

Coffee.

--Gary