what control over Ilfochrome? need advice

[Andrea Gazzoni]

Ok, so after almost three years of having my slides printed on Ilfochrome by two different labs I definitely grew tired of those dim prints and most of all by the lack of control these two labs seem to have over the process. Before leaving Ilfochrome and start bringing my drum scanned files to a digital lab, I need to understand if I am expecting too much from analog printing or my labs are not doing their best with my chromes.
The two pictures below are (A) low res scans from 8x10 slides and (B) basic curves and brightness adjustments in Gimp. The prints from my labs are almost blue&black.

Is there any chance to have this kind of adjustment with Ilfochrome or am I wasting time and money I'd better put in digital prints?

thank you for any advice
Andrea

[Nathan Potter]

You can approach the color rendition in the B images from the A chromes using the Ilfochrome process but you cannot expect it from a commercial lab except at extremely high cost and a lot of skill. Some of the issue is that color is subjective - the lab needs to know what you want to end up with as well as how fussy you are.

If I were doing a print from A (with the very deep blue cast) I would make a first test print through a CC test matrix of CYM filters 0 to about 60 and pick the best initial resulting color balance CYM combination, then tweek the color from there with a print #2 and #3. Others may simply use a color enlarging meter to dial in the approximate balance.

I assume you can't do your own Ilfochrome and I would not expect too much success from a commercial lab, with few exceptions. You're likely better off going the digital route for chromes that are far off from the exposure and color balance that you want in the final prints.

Ilfochromes can be outstanding, but the whole processing chain needs great control and attention to detail. Your mention of dim prints is a common one. Muddy is another complaint. A vibrant Ilfochrome requires a slight over exposure under the enlarger as well as fresh paper and chemistry and definitely masking of the highlights, as required, in order to open up the shadow areas. When done really well there should be an unparalleled luminosity to the final print.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Drew Wiley]

Ilfochrome can be a stunning process, but to do it correctly requires masking skills.
If a commercial lab was competent to provide this kind of service, it would realistically cost far more than the print itself due to the time involved. For this reason nearly all the really good Ciba prints one enounters have been done either by a lab specializing in this particular media, or by individual artists doing their own printing. Just imagine a digital print with virtually no Photoshop correction to the
curve or color balance - that would be equivalent to a Ciba with no corrective masking. Or they could just be using out-of-date paper which simply won't balance.

[bob carnie]

There was a day, long , long ago when clients would pay $200 - $300 for a proper mask that was required for any transparancey/slide.
This included highlight protection masks in conjunction with a contrast reducing mask, as well as increase contrast masks , and we even made funny little masks to colour correct local areas..... those were the days
In 2002 I bought a Lambda and for a few years those stunning days were back as Photoshop allowed me to do the impossible ... Unfortunately the price structure of cibachrome, the client demand , and the supply of product became impossible to maintain a business venture, so we threw the Cibachrome machine in the dumpster..


but fond memory's just the same of a wonderful process.



Ilfochrome can be a stunning process, but to do it correctly requires masking skills.
If a commercial lab was competent to provide this kind of service, it would realistically cost far more than the print itself due to the time involved. For this reason nearly all the really good Ciba prints one enounters have been done either by a lab specializing in this particular media, or by individual artists doing their own printing. Just imagine a digital print with virtually no Photoshop correction to the
curve or color balance - that would be equivalent to a Ciba with no corrective masking. Or they could just be using out-of-date paper which simply won't balance.

[douglas gove]

Still have a cupboard with contact frames and film punches inside and several cibas on the walls...as Bob said those were the days...

[Andrea Gazzoni]

A little discouraging, but very helpful.
I guess I must give up with Ilfochrome and surrender to digital, except for those slides that suits Ilfochrome easily.
Another little step into oblivion since this will mean to cancel the 80% of the Ilfochrome business I am for my lab...and there are not many clients asking for Ilfochrome today as they say.
I didn't even like the idea of having been shooting with print process limits in mind for so many time.

Out of curiosity, is there any pro $$$ lab or mad artist doing this kind of manipulation with masks at present? I mean anywhere

[Sevo]

If you want to do direct prints from film, you must nowadays have perfect negatives or slides to start with. Those photographers that still want all analogue printing are in it for perfect verisimilitude and minimal losses from the original - hence current labs take more pride in their minimalist exact to-spec work than in extensive processing in analogue colour printing.

[Drew Wiley]

Andrea - if they're doing Ciba only rarely, then their paper probably is expired and
impossible to balance. Once it's thawed it's only good a few months before color
crossover occurs - hence the untamed magentas. But yes, there are those of us still
printing it and quite willing to do the necessary masking to obtain wonderful results.
The closest digital option would be on Fuji Supergloss material, which begins with a
scan from either a color negative or positive, and can be corrected for either is PS
afterwards. Very nice stuff, "almost" as good as Ciba - perhaps a little less impact
but easier to correct. It can also be printed optically directly from color negs. Ciba
has gotten prohibitively expensive for most commercial labs, and has another big
disadvantage for them - the color bleach in industrial quaniity is quite corrosive,
and therefore expensive in terms of equip maintenance and sometime worker health
too. For us small-volume users, those problems are easily controlled.

[Nathan Potter]

Andrea, the master "mad artist" currently working with Ilfochrome is Christoper Burkett who has his own lab in Oregon. He takes original chromes in 8X10 format and enlarges them commonly to 20X24 and 32X40 or so. His prints are most often straight from purposely lower contrast images but when masked he uses Tmax film (at least that's what he has told me). He now has a painfully sophisticated lab which is also painfully expensive (as are his prints). He is a perfectionist and the prints are perhaps of a quality unequalled for Ilfochrome as far as my experience goes. His subject matter is rather narrowly conceived, almost exclusively dealing with images in nature. I'm sure he maintains a sizeable stock of Ilfochrome materials on site and may be partly responsible for the continuing availability of the material.

As Drew says the Supergloss material is really pretty damn good so you might be happy with that if you can find a decent shop; and the scanned film can be manipulated in PS to suit. A high quality scan will be expensive and you need skill in PS.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Wayne]

I dont know your reasons for not wanting to do it yourself-maybe you dont have a darkroom, for all I know. But it IS something you can learn to do yourself, if you want to.

[bob carnie]

I would add Jeff Wall to that list , he makes wonderful backlit cibachromes.

Andrea, the master "mad artist" currently working with Ilfochrome is Christoper Burkett who has his own lab in Oregon. He takes original chromes in 8X10 format and enlarges them commonly to 20X24 and 32X40 or so. His prints are most often straight from purposely lower contrast images but when masked he uses Tmax film (at least that's what he has told me). He now has a painfully sophisticated lab which is also painfully expensive (as are his prints). He is a perfectionist and the prints are perhaps of a quality unequalled for Ilfochrome as far as my experience goes. His subject matter is rather narrowly conceived, almost exclusively dealing with images in nature. I'm sure he maintains a sizeable stock of Ilfochrome materials on site and may be partly responsible for the continuing availability of the material.

As Drew says the Supergloss material is really pretty damn good so you might be happy with that if you can find a decent shop; and the scanned film can be manipulated in PS to suit. A high quality scan will be expensive and you need skill in PS.

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Drew Wiley]

Merely having a low contrast original is not sufficient. It makes life a little easier,
BUT Ciba has inherent color reproduction problems which only masking will cure.
Anyone doing optical color printing of any variety would be wise to snatch up punches and registration frames as they come up for sale, often reasonably nowadays, provided the glass is in good shape. Even when printing color negs, there
are cases where masking skill are helpful. And sometimes useful printing b&W negs
too. If it exists on the chrome, it can be printed on Ciba. But dense chrome/mask
sandwiches can require a LOT of light output in the enlarger for big enlargements.

[bob carnie]

What Drew Said

In the 80's I was involved with a monster ciba print project for backlights, actually the Skydome in Toronto. Some of these boxes and therefore prints were in the range of 4ft x 8ft using Ciba Clear material.
We made all the masks for register on the Durst 2501's which in the day were the cats ass.
Three exposures, one for the photocomp trans as the base, one for the white and one for logo colours. Sometimes it would take the enlarger tech a complete 8 hour day to print one multiple hit mural.
The results were spectacular and put the lab I was working for on the map.
I was involved with this project from beginning to installation ,,, photocomp- some printing- and some face mounting to optically clear plexi. Probably the single largest project I ever worked on.
When it works , it really works.


Merely having a low contrast original is not sufficient. It makes life a little easier,
BUT Ciba has inherent color reproduction problems which only masking will cure.
Anyone doing optical color printing of any variety would be wise to snatch up punches and registration frames as they come up for sale, often reasonably nowadays, provided the glass is in good shape. Even when printing color negs, there
are cases where masking skill are helpful. And sometimes useful printing b&W negs
too. If it exists on the chrome, it can be printed on Ciba. But dense chrome/mask
sandwiches can require a LOT of light output in the enlarger for big enlargements.