Condensation on film?

[Liam:]

Hi,

This morning I went out and shot some images of the snow we have had in the south of England. I have just developed the 6 sheets and all of them look similar to below...

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f217/linus4/img534c.jpg

Here is a digital image taken at the same time

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f217/linus4/IMG_7466.jpg

Any idea as to what would cause this? The film is fomapan 100 developed in rodinal 1:50 9 minutes. The film was room temperature before I took it outside (around 1 degrees c) Is it my developing or condensation on the film?

[Liam:]

Here is a snapshot of one of the other negatives, you can see the faint outline of the hill (I was going for the minimilstic look) but then it is really 'cloudy"

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f217/linus4/IMG_7473.jpg

[Gem Singer]

Probably condensation on the lens.

Condensation on the film (if that were possible) would show areas of underexposure on the negative where the layer of moisture blocked the light.

[bobwysiwyg]

I've never experienced any problems shooting 4x5 at similar or much colder temps. Usually, condensation issues occur the other way round, that is taking something cold into warm/moist air. Even so, after acclimating to the interior temps and humidity, the condensation would evaporate, if there were any. I'm leaning towards some processing issue. Can you describe your process in more detail?

[al olson]

Bob, I concur with regard to getting condensation on the film. Processing is a possible culprit.

Liam, could you possibly have breathed on and fogged the lens while you were setting aperture and shutter? In freezing temperatures it takes a while for the frost to sublimate. There might be similar patterns between light and dark on some of the sheets if the frost patterns were not affected between those exposures.

[Liam:]

Thanks for the help.

My process:

Taco method in a patterson drum
Rodinal 1:50 9 minutes (5 sec agitation every 30 seconds)
Stop 1 minute
Fix 7 minutes I then have to adjust the position of the negatives so that they fix properly, fix for a further 5 mins
Wash and dry

I am currently developing 2 sheets taken inside 10 minutes ago using the same process. I used a lens that has some scratches on the rear element, could this be the cause? It looks fine through the gg.

[bobwysiwyg]

Bob, I concur with regard to getting condensation on the film. Processing is a possible culprit.

Liam, could you possibly have breathed on and fogged the lens while you were setting aperture and shutter? In freezing temperatures it takes a while for the frost to sublimate. There might be similar patterns between light and dark on some of the sheets if the frost patterns were not affected between those exposures.

Good point.

[Liam:]

Al, the patterns are very similar on all of the negatives, I must have breathed on the lens every time I set up the shutter speed!

The negatives I just developed look fine, typical....

[Pete Watkins]

Liam,
This won't help with your current problem but it's not recommended to use an acid stop with Foma 100. About 4-5 rinses in a water stop seems to work well for me. If you didn't use an acid stop I'll mind my own buisness in future.
Best wishes,
Pete.

[Roger Vadim]

Looks more like development error to me. Or some light leak, because hazed or foged lenses do look different, they tend to blow out the highlights (at least with my old Summar). If you shoot the ok shots indoors and the screwed ones outdoors it could be that your bellows/ lensboard etc. developed a light leak which just occurs because of the much greater amount of light outside...

edit: oops... just figured out that the pics then would be whitish... wrong assumption, obviously.
not enough developer?

[Liam:]

Hmm, I lied as the images I shot inside are just as bad...

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f217/linus4/img539.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f217/linus4/img539crop.jpg

I had this problem with fomapan before but I thought it was the film as I was getting good results with Ilford. Fomapan sent me a new box of film which I thought solved the problem but it hasn't. You can see that I am getting lots of spots as well as cloudy negs.

Here is the previous thread (http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?t=65166)

The water I use is quite chalky so I might try using some distilled water. Here is my process..

Pre wash

Agfa Rodinal 1:100 10 minutes (agitate 5 secs every 30 secs)

Ilford Ilfostop 1:19 1 minute (continuous agitation)

Fotospeed FX30 1:9 7 minutes (moving elastic band and re-fix for a further 5 mins)

2 minute wash with cold water

Dry

[Gem Singer]

Obviously it's a problem with the film.

Since you were getting good results with Ilford, why did you switch to Fomapan?

Dump the Fomapan, and go back to Ilford.

The problem should disappear.

[Liam:]

Im a student and I get double the amount of sheets if I use fomapan but you are right maybe I should just use my FP4.

This guy is having exactly the same problems as me...

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/68991-fomapan-200-black-spots-what-am-i-doing-wrong.html

It seems strange that both boxes are giving the same results, fomapan can't be that bad, it has to be something I am doing...

[gevalia]

Liam,

Had the same problem last year. Drove me nuts and I think I figred it out. The lens I used was in a wrap in my backpack. I do remember it being warm when I put it on the front standard. The day was foggy and cold with a bit of humidity. I know it wasn't the film because I shot 2 different scenes with different lenses on the same DD. The first came out fine but the 2nd was just like yours.

My 2 cents
Ron

[Vlad Soare]

it's not recommended to use an acid stop with Foma 100
Pete, why is that? I've always used a citric acid stop bath with Fomapan 100 with no noticeable ill effects.
Foma themselves recommend a 2% acetic acid solution for ten seconds in their technical data sheet.


Obviously it's a problem with the film.
[.....]
Dump the Fomapan, and go back to Ilford.
Gem, I wouldn't be so sure about that. Fomapans are good quality films, and very consistent from batch to batch. I have yet to encounter any manufacturing defect with a Foma product, be it film or paper.

[Brian C. Miller]

If something is warm in a cold environment, then nothing will condense on it. I think that the culprit is either a bad coating, or else a problem with the agitation technique.

Liam, how are you doing the agitation? Is it a sloshing inversion or a sideways-wrist-action?

[Liam:]

Brian, I agitate by keeping the drum on the table and spinning it in a circular motion for 5 seconds...

[Gem Singer]

Vlad,

I'm not condemning Fomapan film.

Obviously, that brand of film is not working in Liam's hands.

I'm merely suggesting that it would be more practical to use a film that he has already mastered, rather than spending valuable time and effort trying to correct the problems he is having with Fomapan.

BTW, for the "taco" method of development in a Paterson tank, isn't it recommended to use inversion agitation (similar to roll film on reels) and not rotary agitation (like a Jobo drum)?

Liam's problem is beginning to look like a processing error, not a moisture condensation or defective film problem.

[Brian C. Miller]

I think you have a insufficient agition, Liam. Rolling the film around is OK when there is enough room in the tank so that the tank is a 1/2 capacity, and film gets dunked. However, since the taco method uses almost the full capacity of the tank, you need a different method. Inverting the tank end-over-end in at least four directions would be your best method. End-over-end, 1/4 turn, repeat three more times.

[Vlad Soare]

Gem, I think that's a valid point. While not defective in a strict sense, I guess Fomapan might be sensitive to something that for one reason or another doesn't affect Ilford films.
Liam, is the tank full of developer, and does it stand upright between agitations? Do you rotate the tank simply as a substitute to inversion, the rest of the process going on as usual? Or do you keep the tank horizontal for the entire duration of the development, like a Jobo drum?

[Liam:]

Vlad, I have the tank upright and the main reason I don't invert is because my tank leaks a lot. I will try developing another sheet but with more agitation for developing and fixing.

Thanks for all the help its appreciated.

[rdenney]

Vlad, I have the tank upright and the main reason I don't invert is because my tank leaks a lot. I will try developing another sheet but with more agitation for developing and fixing.

I have never had luck with a vertical tank agitated just by spinning it, even spinning it alot. The difference between spinning about the vertical axis and spinning about a horizontal axis (as when rotary processing) is huge.

Rick "noting that the chemical needs to be stirred, not just the film moved through it" Denney

[Bruce Watson]

If something is warm in a cold environment, then nothing will condense on it.

+1. You'll only get condensation on an object that's colder then the ambient atmosphere (and then only if it's colder than the current dew point), never the reverse.

It's almost certainly an agitation problem. Distant second might be a problem with the film itself.

[Liam:]

Morning,

I just took an image which consisted of different tones mostly white (the spots turn up more on light areas) and the negative is perfect not a spot!

I did exactly the same but I used Brian's method for agitation whilst developing and fixing. The colour of the fix was more blue than usual so I am not sure if it was the the fixing or developing. I will wait until I scan it but I am fairly sure that I have fixed the problem.

Thanks again for all of your help!